Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

[Random Orbits]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

As a PS to my last post: my pros/cons above would not apply if the 5DS was not 'like branded' with 5D in the name. By calling it a 5DS at launch, Canon has given a similar 'level of esteem' to the 5DS as the 5D brand, which fuels a fair amount of feature envy between those lines. When one gets an update, the other gets miffed that it doesn't get access to that hot new feature.

But if they had called the 5DS line something altogether different (4D, something new, something else, etc.) it would have established the 5DS as something 'different' than the 5D line and I think the two brand lines could then co-exist on completely different refresh schedules.

- A

Luckily they didn't call it the 5DIIIS. The 5DS lines felt like Canon releasing a product that would help staunch the flow of defections to other brands. Yes, other brands with Sony sensors had better DR, more MP, etc., but by the time the 5DS came out, Canon was probably close to designing/productionizing the technologies to close most of the DR gap. It also had better color/noise characteristics than the 5DIII. The 80D and 1DXII and now 5DIV now compete much better with Sony sensors. I'd suspect that Canon would want their MP flagship to stand above the 5DIV in all aspects of IQ if possible as soon as possible. Future cycles would then return to the typical long Canon cycles.

 

[ahsanford]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

Luckily they didn't call it the 5DIIIS. The 5DS lines felt like Canon releasing a product that would help staunch the flow of defections to other brands. Yes, other brands with Sony sensors had better DR, more MP, etc., but by the time the 5DS came out, Canon was probably close to designing/productionizing the technologies to close most of the DR gap. It also had better color/noise characteristics than the 5DIII. The 80D and 1DXII and now 5DIV now compete much better with Sony sensors. I'd suspect that Canon would want their MP flagship to stand above the 5DIV in all aspects of IQ if possible as soon as possible. Future cycles would then return to the typical long Canon cycles.

That bit above a whale of an assertion. Do you really see the 5DS2 being the end-all / be-all best IQ for Canon like how the D810 and A7R II are positioned? A jillion wedding photographers (presumably) using the 5D4 might beg to differ. Pixels aren't everything!

- A

 

[Crosswind]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

feb 2017: nikon announces a d820/d850/d900: 42 -60mp, it will have flip screen but will it have serious live view af?
Canon can now determine final specs of their upcoming releases for marketing purposes. Most development is already done or in it's final phase.

This. Canon still hasn't released a single FF body with a tilting screen. It is about time! I wouldn't buy a 2-3k $ camera without a flippy screen - a feature that can be so important for creative photography... I just.... d-o-n-t get it.

Well I guess for some it's not meant to be "professional" : rrrright?
Or for some it might be a no-go, because it could break sooner than later (if that's the argument, then I want to see how they are working as a photographer *head shaking*)

Can somebody tell me what's wrong with tilting screens on high-end bodies? I'm really curious.

 

[Etienne]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

Moire and aliasing is worse than a loss of resolution. If they've completely eliminated those issues then there's no need for the AA filter, otherwise I hope they keep it.

 

[kaihp]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

My predictions are:

end 2016: sony releases an a9: 42-60 mp, maybe possibly 70
feb 2017: nikon announces a d820/d850/d900: 42 -60mp, it will have flip screen but will it have serious live view af?
Canon can now determine final specs of their upcoming releases for marketing purposes. Most development is already done or in it's final phase.
aug 2017: Canon announces a 5dsr mark II

I seriously doubt that Canon can wait so late as 6 months before launch to finalize the specifications. Minor things down in the corner of the software (number of translations perhaps), but not major features. Definitely not things like Mpixel counts or fps, as there are just too many integrations and manufacturing setup issues to close it in 6 months and have a small inventory ready.

From my career in product development, I'd say that final specs are closed at least 12 months ahead of launch.

 

[ahsanford]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

feb 2017: nikon announces a d820/d850/d900: 42 -60mp, it will have flip screen but will it have serious live view af?
Canon can now determine final specs of their upcoming releases for marketing purposes. Most development is already done or in it's final phase.

This. Canon still hasn't released a single FF body with a tilting screen. It is about time! I wouldn't buy a 2-3k $ camera without a flippy screen - a feature that can be so important for creative photography... I just.... d-o-n-t get it.

There would appear to be a hammerlock certainty that the 6D2 will get a tilty-flippy when it arrives next year. I see that feature climbing up from the bottom of the FF pecking order and slowly climbing it's way up. The 5D and 5DS lines will eventually get one.

But you don't see many sideline sports photogs or absurd -50F polar wildlife guys with tilty-flippy screens. Don't expect a tilty-flippy on a 1DX3 (or 1DX4 or 1DX5...). Those rigs need to be bomb/dunk/drop/sand-proof, and I don't think we'll ever see that line get one.

- A

 

[Random Orbits]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

Luckily they didn't call it the 5DIIIS. The 5DS lines felt like Canon releasing a product that would help staunch the flow of defections to other brands. Yes, other brands with Sony sensors had better DR, more MP, etc., but by the time the 5DS came out, Canon was probably close to designing/productionizing the technologies to close most of the DR gap. It also had better color/noise characteristics than the 5DIII. The 80D and 1DXII and now 5DIV now compete much better with Sony sensors. I'd suspect that Canon would want their MP flagship to stand above the 5DIV in all aspects of IQ if possible as soon as possible. Future cycles would then return to the typical long Canon cycles.

That bit above a whale of an assertion. Do you really see the 5DS2 being the end-all / be-all best IQ for Canon like how the D810 and A7R II are positioned? A jillion wedding photographers (presumably) using the 5D4 might beg to differ. Pixels aren't everything!

- A

LOL, I kind of do. Slower frame rate and comparable to or slightly nerfed video features. I would expect a higher price to go with it sitting more evenly between the 1DXII and 5DIV. The 5DIV is targeted toward the wedding segment with good AF, good video (worst negatives are size and crop factor for 4K). With the initial list price of the 1DXII being lower than the original 1DX, I was hoping that the 5DIV would have followed the same pattern, but it came out at the initial 5DIII price of 3500 USD. The 5DS was pitched more as a studio/landscape rig than the general use 5DIII; I would expect the 5DSII to as well relative to the 5DIV.

 

[Maiaibing]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

I don't believe this rumour has any merit at all.

If true, Canon can hardly just change the 5DS/R into a 5DIV - 5DS/R already has most of the key 5DIV improvements. Who would buy a 5DIV if the 5DS/R bosted even more improvements that bought it even closer to the 5DIV?

That leaves Canon with the option to bring on even more pixels. Now I need and crave pixels - so this is my market space. I'd be very happy to see a 5DSRII but it would have to boost a healthy increase in MPIX to make sense as an upgrade. Id probably not buy anything to replace my current 5DS/R @ less than 80 MPIX. Of course, I'd preorder 120 MPIX any day.

To those pointing to the Nikon 800 to 810 release. I think the 5DS/R has proven itself to be a very solid offering without the drawbacks of the original D800 which forced Nikon to issue a fast track upgrade for this model.

Now if Canon puts a 120 MPIX 5DSRII on the X-mas selves together with a "special" 300mm f/2.8 IS L III made for 120 MPIX shooting 2017 may prove to be a very expensive year for my photography...!!!

 

[ahsanford]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

I don't believe this rumour has any merit at all.

If true, Canon can hardly just change the 5DS/R into a 5DIV - 5DS/R already has most of the key 5DIV improvements. Who would buy a 5DIV if the 5DS/R bosted even more improvements that bought it even closer to the 5DIV?

People would buy the 5D4 over the 5DS/5DS2 if opting for less pixels rewarded the performance elsewhere somehow: like if the 5D4 cleaned the 5DS's clock at high ISO noise or had a considerably higher burst rate.

But from what little I've seen on the 5D4 so far:

• It's better than the 5DS in low light, but when you downsample the 5DS to 30 MP, it's not a dramatic difference, perhaps on the order of one stop.
  
  
• It has a faster burst rate, but since Canon continues to nerf the 5D# line's processing power, it only has +2 fps over the 5DS. That's not exactly a ringing endorsement of the 5D4. 9 fps for the 5D4 would have sat far more usefully between the 5 fps of the 5DS and the 14 fps of the 1DX2. 7 fps for the 5D4 muddies things a bit as far as differentiation goes, IMHO.

As a result, what was intended to be a market split of '5D4 is for the field, 5DS is for the studio or tripod' isn't shaping up that way. If you are a stills only shooter, I'm hard-pressed why you'd choose a 5D4 over a 5DS rig for anything other than the little things that the 5D4 is getting simply by being the newest kid on the block (more F/8 points, 1DX2 AF, -3 EV AF center point through the VF, AF selector knob, touchscreen, etc.)... which we presume the 5DS2 will get when it gets refreshed.

- A

 

[mmeerdam]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

I seriously doubt that Canon can wait so late as 6 months before launch to finalize the specifications. Minor things down in the corner of the software (number of translations perhaps), but not major features. Definitely not things like Mpixel counts or fps, as there are just too many integrations and manufacturing setup issues to close it in 6 months and have a small inventory ready.

From my career in product development, I'd say that final specs are closed at least 12 months ahead of launch.

i agree completely. glad someone with experience chimes in! I was talking about firmware stuff, i do believe there is some headroom in processing power and hardware capabilities in every eos camera. These things are computers after all. 5d3 could record raw video if they wanted to.

 

[rrcphoto]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

The speedy 5DSR update is good to see! However, if they do put out 100-120mpix, this will truly be a specialty camera

the 5Ds is already a specialty camera - the 5D Mark III/IV is and was the normal variety.

 

[rrcphoto]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

So many questions on what a 5DS2 (or whatever it might be called) might offer:

• Will it get 4K?
• Will it get a higher fps burst rate?
• Will it get the 1DX2/5D4 AF setup?
• Will the DP RAW feature be offered? (Those files would be hilariously big)

I am curious to see what makes it into this new rig besides the 'obvious' stuff we expect it to get that the 5D4 just got (DPAF, touchscreen, -3 EV AF through the viewfinder, etc.)

- A

4K probably the same as the 5DIV.
higher burst rate.. probably be lucky to hit 4fps.

 

[rrcphoto]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

feb 2017: nikon announces a d820/d850/d900: 42 -60mp, it will have flip screen but will it have serious live view af?
Canon can now determine final specs of their upcoming releases for marketing purposes. Most development is already done or in it's final phase.

This. Canon still hasn't released a single FF body with a tilting screen. It is about time! I wouldn't buy a 2-3k $ camera without a flippy screen - a feature that can be so important for creative photography... I just.... d-o-n-t get it.

Well I guess for some it's not meant to be "professional" : rrrright?
Or for some it might be a no-go, because it could break sooner than later (if that's the argument, then I want to see how they are working as a photographer *head shaking*)

Can somebody tell me what's wrong with tilting screens on high-end bodies? I'm really curious.

always kind of curious on why some bemoan a tilt screen on an OVF based camera.

while handy to look at the back LCD .. most still use something called a viewfinder.

tilt screen though may happen on the 5D series.. but a full articulating screen will never happen (IMO of course).

 

[rrcphoto]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

[qIt has a faster burst rate, but since Canon continues to nerf the 5D# line's processing power, it only has +2 fps over the 5DS.

I'd love to see the technically analysis of fitting three DiGiC's in a 5D frame, versus the two that are now in there for the 5D Mark IV.

 

[Loswr]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

It's better than the 5DS in low light, but when you downsample the 5DS to 30 MP, it's not a dramatic difference, perhaps on the order of one stop.

When did one stop become 'not a dramatic difference'? The light gathering area-based difference in image noise between APS-C and FF is 1.3 stops. Are you saying that there is 'not a dramatic difference' between APS-C and full frame? Or that the threshold for a dramatic difference falls somewhere between 1 and 1.3 stops?

One stop of lens aperture is certainly a dramatic difference, at least in terms of cost for some lenses...

 

[ahsanford]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

It's better than the 5DS in low light, but when you downsample the 5DS to 30 MP, it's not a dramatic difference, perhaps on the order of one stop.

When did one stop become 'not a dramatic difference'? The light gathering area-based difference in image noise between APS-C and FF is 1.3 stops. Are you saying that there is 'not a dramatic difference' between APS-C and full frame? Or that the threshold for a dramatic difference falls somewhere between 1 and 1.3 stops?

I was being kind to the 5D4. Once you downsample to like resolution, I actually think it's less than a stop. But you make a fair point: one stop improvement is actually a technical coup.

I just see the downsides of a 5DS are not that terrible. I would have thought that going after 50 MP would scorch the performance in another metric. Or, put another way, I expected a little more out of the 5D4 to justify what not going after 50 MP can do for you.

I'm a very happy 5D3 owner, as you know, but as a stills-only shooter, I get more excited about +20 MP if it only costs me one stop of high ISO and 2 fps. If this trend continues, I could see all stills-only shooters that don't need high FPS / large buffers going after the 5DS, 5DS2, etc. rather than the 5D4, 5D5, etc.

- A

 

[Loswr]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

If this trend continues, I could see all stills-only shooters that don't need high FPS / large buffers going after the 5DS, 5DS2, etc. rather than the 5D4, 5D5, etc.

As a 1D X owner, the 5DIV is not really appealing. But I could see adding a 5DsR II to my kit at some point.

 

[LordofTackle]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

I don't believe this rumour has any merit at all.

If true, Canon can hardly just change the 5DS/R into a 5DIV - 5DS/R already has most of the key 5DIV improvements. Who would buy a 5DIV if the 5DS/R bosted even more improvements that bought it even closer to the 5DIV?

Maybe if they focus solely on stills features? Leaving out all the video stuff? That would leave the 5DIV or the 1DXII for the video crowd and establish the 5DS(R) II as a prime stills tool, especially for studio photographers?
IMHO, that would be an interesting product differentiation.

 

[SirSam]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

I don't understand why one should want a FF camera with more that 40-50 mp. I don't think it's a smart move of canon and Sony to develop such high mega pixel FF cameras, because first of all there are no lenses with the respective resolving power and secondly who should want a camera with such a small sensor and the consequently high pixel pitch. Even the 5dsr has a diffraction limited aperture of f/6.7, so a 70mp FF camera would have something like f/4, which means that beyond this aperture value the image will become softer due to diffraction (think about landscape photographers for whom the high mega pixels are appealing in general but they can't us high aperture values which they usually want to do). I think Canon should better think about the development of a bigger sensor instead...

 

[mmeerdam]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

Just some other thoughts:
5d line-up and price.
They priced the 5d4 high (mostly in europe) so they can price the same camera with a 60mp (maybe higher? ) sensor a little to a substantial bit higher and drop the 5d4 price to make it look a great deal. All without having to offer any extra features in the new camera. This means they can re-use the 5d4 body without having to worry about video and fps. Both are probably the main hurdles in throughput and heat development. To develop a camera that does all as well as canon demands is too big a risk. they are in pole position allready.
Welcome side effect: a lot of pro's will need bodies for high mp work and low light from time to time which means they sell 2 new bodies per 4/5 years instead of 1 while the buyer keeps their old one around.

Why a 5ds2 is probably coming in 2017
It won't make any sense for canon to keep the already developed 5ds2 body (5d4 framework) on the shelf for a year or more after rival nikon and sony have released their updated high megapixel products. a year won't bring enough sensor advancements to put out a much more compelling product.

mp count
i'm a idiot at math so someone else should probably chime in here:

We could calculate a theoretical maximum mp count based on throughput.
5d4 does 30mp = ca 40MB @ 7fps = around 280 to 300 MB/s?
double digic 6+ can proces 1.5x that sort of? = 450MB/s?
70mp = 85MB @ 5fps should be possible?

edit: 5d4 already has double digic? maybe double digic 7 for a boost
otherwise maybe the architecture is already capable of 60-70 mp.
would be logical they already built it for more throughput.