*UPDATED* Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

[jeffa4444]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

One other point. As the market is squeezed the unit cost will increase no wonder the Canon 5D MKIV is £ 3599 in the UK (no this is not all down to Brexit which would have added around 18% using the $ as the benchmark, in % terms the camera increased by 36% over the 5D MKIII price prior to launch).
These higher prices also reduce sales so become a downward spiral.

 

[hbr]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

Some random thoughts here with no conclusions. The advent of the cell phone market market was a huge hit to the traditional camera manufacturers due to one thing - convenience. The smart phones are small, most people own them and carry them everywhere they go, they are always connected, (although people pay a monthly fee to the phone carriers for this convenience), and they take great pictures. They do not have a plethora of buttons and confusing menu items. As Mikehit said earlier, the cell phones coupled with the huge rise of social media has been a huge success for the smart phone manufacturers. Most of the people I know that use them are not interested in the quality of the pictures, in other words, they will not edit their pictures, print them or pixel peep. One humorous example of this is often when I go to a national park, I frequently observe a car load of people with smartphones sticking out of every window, photographing a wild animal at 200 yards away. The quality of the photo is not important, just the fact that they can share their experience with their friends.
In another vein, often while I am out and about I attract a lot of attention due to the white lenses on my camera. I love to talk to these people and share my passion for photography and experience with them and I often ask them as many questions as they ask me. Many people are still using 7 and 8 year old entry level cameras with only the original kit lens. They originally planned to purchase one camera in their lifetime and think their photos are just fine. Most of them have never taken the mode dial off of the Auto setting and don't have a clue about shooting in RAW or what all the dials and buttons do. Most of them will never join a forum like this. But, I am hoping that when I show them what kind of shots are possible that they reconsider and upgrade.
And then many of my friends purchased a dslr only to take pictures of their babies or kids growing up because they thought the dslr would give them outstanding photos, (although most of them would probably have taken better pictures with their smart phones or a point and shoot).
So, my question is this: are the entry level cameras too complicated? Could the camera manufacturers make a profit by offering less features on a less expensive entry level camera? When the T5 recently sold on QVC at a give away price, they sold out almost immediately. (I realize that no one made much profit on this sale as it was a close-out, but even this camera had more features than most of they buyers will ever use). A friend of mine bought 3 of them - one each for her teenage kids.
But even if they could make a profit on low cost cameras, the issue of connectivity to instantly share ones photos will still plague the camera manufacturers.
The cell phone market has also matured and we are inundated with cell phones, so I see no advantage for the manufacturers to enter this market.
Fortunately, there are still plenty of true photographers out there who are upgrading their equipment as technology advances to make money for the camera manufacturers, but it will take a lot of thinking outside of the box for these manufacturers to try to get the customers back that only use their smart phones and more than likely this segment of the market is gone forever.

 

[jeffa4444]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

well orangutan, you may want to discuss it with Thom Hogan. I quoted his conclusions on CIPA data. As far as I am concerned, I am in full agreement with the facts & data as well as the conclusions.

Re. 11% decline in mirrorless ... oh wonder! Only #3 market player offers FF mirrorless. Nikon and Canon with combined 80% market share are empty-handed on FF MILC, they have nothing to sell, so there are no sales. Hardly a surprise.

Even for APS-C mirrorless there are only 3 players: Sony [good bodies, but only sub-par or too expensive lenses] , Fuji [expensive & retro stuff] and Canon [decent lenses, but nerfed bodies]. Samsung ... departed. Leica .. of yeah ... "be dumm, pay premium!"

Oly/Pana ... mFT dwarf sensors anyone? Nikon 1 ? give me a break. Pathetic.

My conclusion: mirrorslappers are dying even faster than I expected. Mirrorless is not where it ought to be, because of lack of compelling systems.

In essence: MILC market share is absolutely and solely a SUPPLY side problem, not a market DEMAND issue.

Seems your contradicting yourself. The Oly mFT Ive run along side my Canon gear for years and the quality has steadily got better especially when they changed to Sony sensors. Its certainly not a FF beater but its certainly a viable system for a vacation camera with inter-changeable lenses at half the weight.
The Nikon 1 was a daft system without others buying in but mFT has got buy-in.

I would buy the Canon 5D MKIV but not at £ 3599 body only in the UK at least Canon are pricing themselves out of the market.

 

[privatebydesign]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

One other point. As the market is squeezed the unit cost will increase no wonder the Canon 5D MKIV is £ 3599 in the UK (no this is not all down to Brexit which would have added around 18% using the $ as the benchmark, in % terms the camera increased by 36% over the 5D MKIII price prior to launch).
These higher prices also reduce sales so become a downward spiral.

That currency conversion relies on hindsight. If you had to set the price of anything you were importing into the UK today 8-12 months ago without that hindsight how would you have valued the pound? Brexit's biggest issue was the uncertainty it created for companies importing to the UK, bankers and traders love uncertainty because they profit from it, companies trying to do real import export work hate it.

It turns out that the devaluation Brexit's brought about was not as dramatic as many feared, though there is more uncertainty to come, so I'd expect many of these prices to ease. Interestingly the 5D MkIV is following the same price trajectory as the 5D MkIII did whereas the 5DSR is holding a markedly higher price/devaluation curve. Cameras are not 18 or 36% more expensive in the USA or in most countries, so the UK is an outlier and the uncertainty and currency hedging that was forced on importers is the main reason.

 

[jeffa4444]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

One other point. As the market is squeezed the unit cost will increase no wonder the Canon 5D MKIV is £ 3599 in the UK (no this is not all down to Brexit which would have added around 18% using the $ as the benchmark, in % terms the camera increased by 36% over the 5D MKIII price prior to launch).
These higher prices also reduce sales so become a downward spiral.

That currency conversion relies on hindsight. If you had to set the price of anything you were importing into the UK today 8-12 months ago without that hindsight how would you have valued the pound? Brexit's biggest issue was the uncertainty it created for companies importing to the UK, bankers and traders love uncertainty because they profit from it, companies trying to do real import export work hate it.

It turns out that the devaluation Brexit's brought about was not as dramatic as many feared, though there is more uncertainty to come, so I'd expect many of these prices to ease. Interestingly the 5D MkIV is following the same price trajectory as the 5D MkIII did whereas the 5DSR is holding a markedly higher price/devaluation curve. Cameras are not 18 or 36% more expensive in the USA or in most countries, so the UK is an outlier and the uncertainty and currency hedging that was forced on importers is the main reason.

That only explains the 18% move not the actual 36% move. By contrast Canon lenses have jumped by 18-20%, the 80D is unchanged and the 6D up by 5%.

 

[privatebydesign]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

One other point. As the market is squeezed the unit cost will increase no wonder the Canon 5D MKIV is £ 3599 in the UK (no this is not all down to Brexit which would have added around 18% using the $ as the benchmark, in % terms the camera increased by 36% over the 5D MKIII price prior to launch).
These higher prices also reduce sales so become a downward spiral.

That currency conversion relies on hindsight. If you had to set the price of anything you were importing into the UK today 8-12 months ago without that hindsight how would you have valued the pound? Brexit's biggest issue was the uncertainty it created for companies importing to the UK, bankers and traders love uncertainty because they profit from it, companies trying to do real import export work hate it.

It turns out that the devaluation Brexit's brought about was not as dramatic as many feared, though there is more uncertainty to come, so I'd expect many of these prices to ease. Interestingly the 5D MkIV is following the same price trajectory as the 5D MkIII did whereas the 5DSR is holding a markedly higher price/devaluation curve. Cameras are not 18 or 36% more expensive in the USA or in most countries, so the UK is an outlier and the uncertainty and currency hedging that was forced on importers is the main reason.

That only explains the 18% move not the actual 36% move. By contrast Canon lenses have jumped by 18-20%, the 80D is unchanged and the 6D up by 5%.

No you are being myopic. 18% is the actual difference, I am saying what was the projected difference when the price was set? Nobody knew, nobody had a clue. The 6D is nearing end of life, the 80D is getting massive discount flash sales in the USA so is also likely EOL, lenses are a constant. A release like a 5D replacement is a major cash boost and Canon could not afford to under price it, so they hedged, as all good company money men would. It is a lot easier to lower the price and make more sales than raise it and try to recoup lost income.

 

[Azathoth]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

If that roadmap would be true, it would be very disappointing and only contain 1 out of approx 50 cameras and lenses I have on a personal wish list and would buy (products which all wouldn't be unrealistic looking at the competition and the market in the year 2017):

1DX2 Mirrorless 5Axis
5D4 Mirrorless 5Axis
5D 120MP 5Axis
5D 12MP Low Light 5Axis
5D Astro Camera
Medium Format 100MP Camera
C500III 4K 60fps

14-24/2.8 IS
16-35/2.8 IS
24-70/2.8 IS
70-200/2.8 IS III
200-600/5.6 IS
24-200/3.5-5.6 IS
28-300/3.5-5.6 IS II

16-300/3.5-5.6 IS
17-55/2.8 IS II
18-35/1.8 IS
50-100/1.8 IS
50-150/2.8 IS

12/2.8 IS
14/2.8 IS
18/2 IS
20/1.4 IS
20/1.8 IS
24/1.4 IS
24/1.8 IS
28/1.4 IS
28/1.8 IS
35/1.4 IS
35/1.8 IS
45/2.8 II Tiltshift
50/0.95
50/1.2 IS
50/1.8 IS
60/2 IS Macro
85/1.2 IS
85/1.8 IS
90/2.8 II Tiltshift
100/2 IS Macro
135/2 IS
180/2.8 IS Macro
200/2.8 IS

Please, no. Canon, please don't ruin amazingly good and simple primes by putting IS. It makes sense on a zoom lens because the aim is to get something versatile. But not on a prime. Primes have that amazing good image quality because they have a simple construction. Don't transform primes into zooms, pleeease.

 

[hbr]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

One other point. As the market is squeezed the unit cost will increase no wonder the Canon 5D MKIV is £ 3599 in the UK (no this is not all down to Brexit which would have added around 18% using the $ as the benchmark, in % terms the camera increased by 36% over the 5D MKIII price prior to launch).
These higher prices also reduce sales so become a downward spiral.

If my information is correct, I believe Canon, (in the US anyway), has done a good job of keeping the market entry prices the same or lower than the previous models despite fluctuations in exchange rates. Europe may be a totally different situation. I believe that Europe taxes imports differently than in the US.

 

[ahsanford]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

Please, no. Canon, please don't ruin amazingly good and simple primes by putting IS. It makes sense on a zoom lens because the aim is to get something versatile. But not on a prime. Primes have that amazing good image quality because they have a simple construction. Don't transform primes into zooms, pleeease.

Can you name me a single lens that was 'ruined' by adding IS to it?

The simple construction in the 24/28/35 non-L primes was transformed into the 'IS refresh' lenses, which were near-L quality instruments: night-and-day better build quality, internal focusing, ring USM, etc. and shockingly, those lenses did not become zoom-like. They are just wonderful little primes.

And I have heard precisely zero complaints with the 100 f/2.8L Macro IS other than stuff like front filter diameter or the tripod ring being a separate item. That lens is also terrific.

- A

 

[douglaurent]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

If that roadmap would be true, it would be very disappointing and only contain 1 out of approx 50 cameras and lenses I have on a personal wish list and would buy (products which all wouldn't be unrealistic looking at the competition and the market in the year 2017):

1DX2 Mirrorless 5Axis
5D4 Mirrorless 5Axis
5D 120MP 5Axis
5D 12MP Low Light 5Axis
5D Astro Camera
Medium Format 100MP Camera
C500III 4K 60fps

14-24/2.8 IS
16-35/2.8 IS
24-70/2.8 IS
70-200/2.8 IS III
200-600/5.6 IS
24-200/3.5-5.6 IS
28-300/3.5-5.6 IS II

16-300/3.5-5.6 IS
17-55/2.8 IS II
18-35/1.8 IS
50-100/1.8 IS
50-150/2.8 IS

12/2.8 IS
14/2.8 IS
18/2 IS
20/1.4 IS
20/1.8 IS
24/1.4 IS
24/1.8 IS
28/1.4 IS
28/1.8 IS
35/1.4 IS
35/1.8 IS
45/2.8 II Tiltshift
50/0.95
50/1.2 IS
50/1.8 IS
60/2 IS Macro
85/1.2 IS
85/1.8 IS
90/2.8 II Tiltshift
100/2 IS Macro
135/2 IS
180/2.8 IS Macro
200/2.8 IS

Please, no. Canon, please don't ruin amazingly good and simple primes by putting IS. It makes sense on a zoom lens because the aim is to get something versatile. But not on a prime. Primes have that amazing good image quality because they have a simple construction. Don't transform primes into zooms, pleeease.

"Primes have that amazing good image quality because they have a simple construction" - that might be the most untrue technical statement I have read. So the 100/2.8 Macro, 200/2 and tele lenses suck because they have IS? No they don't, and aside from the new 35/1.4 II these mentioned lenses are all better optically than Canon's non-IS prime lens lineup.

 

[douglaurent]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

If the people at Canon would know the market and be good in knowing what their consumers want, they would have predicted that their mass consumers will flee from DSLRs, and have started to build smartphones some years ago. They also would have reacted with products to all those former Canon consumers, who bought Sony and Panasonic cameras instead. Canon's absolute sales numbers are going down since years, nobody at Canon will throw champagne parties because the market share still looks good.

Interpreted as:

I have a view that says Canon is a crap company, crap at predicting things, crap at knowing what their clients want and crap at delivering anything useful and above all crap because they are more useless than anyone else because they don't deliver what nobody else delivers either. I will therefore twist any information I see to fit that jaundiced irascible viewpoint.

But I will still use Canon over any other marque.

Indeed. Yet another hypocritical forum dweller who knows better than Canon how Canon should spend their money. In this case with a leavening of 20/20 hindsight thrown in, along with a sprinkle of I'm special 'cuz I own lots of expensive gear on top.

What most of these CHWAC posts amount to is a justification for why Canon should make the gear on that poster's personal wish list (in some cases a ridiculously long personal wish list).

Funny how these self-appointed experts – and the millions of people they claim think just like them – seem to have radically different, and in some cases diametrically opposed, 'knowledge' about what Canton must do to avoid certain doom. For example, one CHWAC says that Canon must update every single one of their dSLRs and most of their lenses with features 'their competitors have offered for years' (despite those competitors' continued loss of marketshare to Canon), while another CHWAC says that Canon should stop making dSLRs altogether, and instead switch over to making only mirrorless cameras, with an entire new line of lenses to go with the FF versions.

Clueless.

I honestly don't care how Canon is doing, because they don't care about the budgets and workflows of the consumers either. Especially for you, below I will copy my personal "best of full frame" camera and lens list again, regardless of brands or mounts. This is not a forum for amateurs, which is why it's not about celebrating which company sells most in mass volume. What we search are the Ferraris for our work, and not the best selling Toyotas. An in my opinion Canon only delivers the best product in 14 of 40 categories:

Sony A99II (Allround)
Sony A7SII (Lowlight)
Canon 1DXII (4K 60fps, Video Autofocus)
Canon 5DsR (Resolution)
Nikon D810A (Astro)

Canon 8-15/4 Fisheye
Sigma Art 12-24/4
Canon 16-35/2.8 III
Sony 24-70/2.8 GM
Nikon 70-200/2.8 VR FL
Canon 100-400/4.5-5.6 II IS
Canon 200-400/4 IS +1.4EXT
Sony 24-240/3.5-6.3 (Allround)

Voigtländer 10/5.6
Voigtländer 12/5.6
Zeiss Milvus 15/2.8
Zeiss Batis 18/2.8
Zeiss Milvus 21/2.8
Sigma Art 24/1.4
Zeiss Otus 28/1.4
Canon 35/1.4 II
Zeiss Milvus 50/2 Macro
Zeiss Otus 55/1.4
Canon 65/2.8 Macro 1-5x
Sigma Art 85/1.4
Zeiss Milvus 100/2 Macro
Nikon 105/1.4
Zeiss Milvus 135/2
Sigma 180/2.8 OS Macro
Nikon 200/2 VR II
Canon 300/2.8 II IS
Canon 400/2.8 II IS
Canon 500/4 II IS
Canon 600/4 II IS
Nikon 800/5.6 VR FL

Canon 17/4 TS
Nikon 19/4 TS
Canon 24/3.5 TS
Nikon 45/2.8 TS
Nikon 90/2.8 TS

 

[Loswr]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

I honestly don't care how Canon is doing, because they don't care about the budgets and workflows of the consumers either. Especially for you, below I will copy my personal "best of full frame" camera and lens list again, regardless of brands or mounts. ... An in my opinion Canon only delivers the best product in 14 of 40 categories:

Especially for me? Lol. Why would I give any credence to your worthless opinion?

 

[Antono Refa]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

If that roadmap would be true, it would be very disappointing and only contain 1 out of approx 50 cameras and lenses I have on a personal wish list and would buy (products which all wouldn't be unrealistic looking at the competition and the market in the year 2017):

<snip>

14-24/2.8 IS
16-35/2.8 IS
24-70/2.8 IS

<snip>

I'll settle for TS-E 11-800mm f/1.0 IS USM and TS-E 8-15mm f/0.7 IS USM fish eye, both with auto focus, 5 axis 6 stops IS, and the ability to tilt & shift on both axis.

 

[Orangutan]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

This is not a forum for amateurs

Of course it is, where did you get the idea that CR is for pros only?

 

[Loswr]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

This is not a forum for amateurs

Of course it is, where did you get the idea that CR is for pros only?

That's his opinion. He's welcome to express his opinion even though, as usual, doing so makes him look foolish.

 

[Orangutan]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

This is not a forum for amateurs

Of course it is, where did you get the idea that CR is for pros only?

That's his opinion. He's welcome to express his opinion even though, as usual, doing so makes him look foolish.

It's not an opinion if it stands opposed to fact.

 

[Mikehit]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

An in my opinion Canon only delivers the best product in 14 of 40 categories:

So that list is your 40 categories? Those aren't categories - its a list of products you like to use.

It is interesting you are so critical about Canon when the nearest competitors in you 'list of categories' are:
Nikon - 8
Zeiss - 8
Sony - 4

Yeah, Canon's doing a really bad job there.

I have friends who own a Nissan 4x4 for winter travel and a Mazda for summer days. I don't ever recall them bitching about how Mazda are so incompetent because the Mazda doesn't meet their needs for winter.

 

[Loswr]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

This is not a forum for amateurs

Of course it is, where did you get the idea that CR is for pros only?

That's his opinion. He's welcome to express his opinion even though, as usual, doing so makes him look foolish.

It's not an opinion if it stands opposed to fact.

I respectfully disagree.

o·pin·ion əˈpinyən/ noun
a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.

For example, some people hold the opinion that the earth is flat. They sound like idiots when they share that opinion with people who are cognizant of the facts, but it remains their right to hold that opinion.

 

[douglaurent]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

If that roadmap would be true, it would be very disappointing and only contain 1 out of approx 50 cameras and lenses I have on a personal wish list and would buy (products which all wouldn't be unrealistic looking at the competition and the market in the year 2017):

<snip>

14-24/2.8 IS
16-35/2.8 IS
24-70/2.8 IS

<snip>

I'll settle for TS-E 11-800mm f/1.0 IS USM and TS-E 8-15mm f/0.7 IS USM fish eye, both with auto focus, 5 axis 6 stops IS, and the ability to tilt & shift on both axis.

So regarding these 3 zooms, you say I'm a complete idiot to expect Canon to release same spec'ed lenses 2-8 years later than the competion, because it's unmanagable to add stabilization? That only shows how low the expectations regarding Canon seem to be.

 

[douglaurent]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

I honestly don't care how Canon is doing, because they don't care about the budgets and workflows of the consumers either. Especially for you, below I will copy my personal "best of full frame" camera and lens list again, regardless of brands or mounts. ... An in my opinion Canon only delivers the best product in 14 of 40 categories:

Especially for me? Lol. Why would I give any credence to your worthless opinion?

Because you seem to spend 50x as much time in such forums as me and seem to need the attention.