Upgrading...Canon 60D to...GH3

[jasonmillard81]

Greetings all

I have loved the informative and polite feedback offered by everyone on this forum. You convinced me to go from a camcorder to a DSLR (60D) and now I am thinking of halting my investment into the 60D to do an upgrade.

Currently I have a 60D, Canon 50mm 1.8, Tamron 17-50 2.8, Sigma 85 2.8 lenses

I have made some great progress in filming/editing and need to learn a lot more! Just finally got my glidecam!!!

I feel though that the 60D is limited in its capability especially since I've always loved the quality of the 5D Mark II and the GH2. I think the most basic difference to me is that the 5D Mark II is better in low light and the GH2 has better image quality when properly lit, which is most of the time...

I am leaning toward the GH3, and hoping for a future hack.

I wonder what everyone's opinions are?

I am a hobbyist, love shooting adventures into NYC, interviewing/documentary, and making small videos for family etc. "filmic" style

Thanks!

JM

 

[Marsu42]

I think the most basic difference to me is that the 5D Mark II is better in low light and the GH2 has better image quality when properly lit, which is most of the time...

I seldom do video, but when switching away from 60d or 5d2 I'm wondering if people know and use Magic Lantern and all the video features it provides (hdr video, gradual expo, fps override, ...). But if it comes to raw sensor power in very low light the crop sensor doesn't cut it, that's a known fact.

 

[JasonATL]

For anyone considering a GH3, I would also suggest considering the Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera http://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6796

As someone who has used hacked Canon DSLRs to achieve higher bitrates, I can say that shooting in 4:2:2 ProRes was exactly what I was trying to achieve. Even better is the ability to shoot in raw.

Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera Key Features
• High resolution 1080HD Super 16mm sized sensor with superior handing of image detail.
• Super wide 13 stops of dynamic range allows capture of increased details for feature film look.
• Compatible with extremely high quality Micro Four Thirds lenses. Compatible with other mounts via common third party adapters such as PL mount and Super 16 cine lenses.
• Built in SD card allows long duration recording with easy to use media.
• Open file formats compatible with popular NLE software such as ProRes 422 (HQ) and lossless compressed CinemaDNG 12 bit RAW. No custom file formats.
• Features all standard connections, including mini jack mic/line audio in, micro HDMI output for monitoring with camera status graphic overlay, headphone mini jack, LANC remote control and standard DC 12 power connection.
• Built in LCD for camera settings via easy to use menus.  
• Supports 1080HD resolution capture in 23.98, 24, 25, 29.97 and 30 fps.
• Compatible with DaVinci Resolve Lite color grading software.

Availability and Price
Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera is available in July for US$995 from Blackmagic Design resellers worldwide.

With Blackmagic Design's various camera options (the Cinema Camera is available now and Pocket Camera and the Production Camera at 4k are due in July), I'm hard pressed to recommend serious video shooters to go with any DSLR. While DSLRs' flexibility and all-around features are hard to beat, with the ability to shoot photos being their strongest suit, the video quality just doesn't compare, in my opinion.

Otherwise, I understand the GH3 to be a very nice camera.

 

[Axilrod]

With Blackmagic Design's various camera options (the Cinema Camera is available now and Pocket Camera and the Production Camera at 4k are due in July), I'm hard pressed to recommend serious video shooters to go with any DSLR. While DSLRs' flexibility and all-around features are hard to beat, with the ability to shoot photos being their strongest suit, the video quality just doesn't compare, in my opinion.

Otherwise, I understand the GH3 to be a very nice camera.

I agree, the Blackmagic cameras are great and I preordered both, but this guy is talking about a $1299 camera so I'm thinking they're out of his budget. I don't think the pocket cam is a realistic A cam, great secondary but I think people would only use it as a main camera for the novelty of it. I personally preordered it because it's only $1k and it's neat so why not?

Anyways OP, the GH3 is a great camera, definitely superior to the 60D. I haven't used it personally but everything I've seen/read/heard on it is positive. Then again you'll have to change your lens selection, but if you sell of your gear it wont be that bad.

 

[jasonmillard81]

Thanks for the info. I just feel the 60d is very soft, bad in low light and higher ISO than 600, don't get me wrong I'm not a pro nor do I use it daily. I'd like to make small documentaries for my students and myself. I'd consider a 5d mkii but its crap audio is a downer. The 5dmkiii is 3k before purchasing serious glass! The gh3 and bmpcc are around the same and would allow me to buy serious glass.

I could also buy L primes but why invest 1000 in glass for a mediocre body? It seems like getting a gh3 and the voigtlander .o95 used by Philip bloom will give superior footage and low light performance than a fast canon prime on 60d???

Thoughts???

 

[JasonATL]

As usual, Axilrod makes some good points. The only thing I think is yet to be seen is how competent of an "A cam" the BM Pocket Camera will be. If it shoots at native ISO 800, then it should be fine in lower light. When properly handled (e.g., a tripod or something to keep it steady), I suspect its image will be better than most DSLRs and perhaps better than the GH3. The GH3 might still have a slight advantage in low light. So, if you are shooting in low light, this may be a deciding factor.

I don't have a 60D, but I have the T3i/600D, which has the same sensor and very similar features. I find the lowlight capability to be reasonably good and have no second thoughts at ISO 640, so I'm puzzled as to why you say "above 600" is no good. To me, the image at ISO 640 is very clean - to the point that I don't even bother trying to stretch to ISO 320. I've used ISO 1250 with good (not great, perhaps) results. Yes, a faster lens will help a little, but not much compared with what you already have. I have a 24mm 1.4L, but I try to shoot no lower than f2.0.

Not having a GH2 or GH3, I can't say how great they are. All I know is what I read - and people seem to love them. In most of the videos comparing the Canon's with the GH3, I will admit that there is more detail in the GH2/GH3, but I tend to favor the overall image (including color and contrast) of the Canon DSLRs. While this is clearly a personal preference, my point is that resolution isn't everything. Perhaps it is the lens used?

More to your question, "why invest 1000 in glass for a mediocre body?" Answer: because the glass matters more than the body. To me, the most important ingredients to a good picture are: 1) Photographer, 2) Light; 3) Lens; 4) Camera (or sensor). I've based this not only my own experience, but on what I've read most pros believe, too. From a pure cost perspective, the lens should last far longer than the camera body. So, I suggest not skimping on the lenses. Indeed, my original choice of Canon for my first DSLR was based on the glass that I could get. Indeed, I'm not looking forward to getting the Pocket Camera, if only because I don't spend a ton a different set of glass and, therefore, I won't have glass as good as the EF-mount glass that I have (and I have a small-fortune in EF glass that, for the reasons above, I don't regret spending).

Just my thoughts.

 

[jasonmillard81]

Ok thanks for the input I greatly appreciate it....reading your points it looks like I have 4 options:

1. Keep 60D - buy fast Zeiss/Canon L primes
2. Sell 60D buy Canon 5D MK II - buy fast Zeiss/Canon L primes
3. Sell 60D Buy GH3 - buy Voigtlander and other quality lenses (as used by Philip Bloom in some videos)
4. Sell 60D Buy BMPCC

Thoughts?

 

[Mt Spokane Photography]

Ok thanks for the input I greatly appreciate it....reading your points it looks like I have 4 options:

1. Keep 60D - buy fast Zeiss/Canon L primes
2. Sell 60D buy Canon 5D MK II - buy fast Zeiss/Canon L primes
3. Sell 60D Buy GH3 - buy Voigtlander and other quality lenses (as used by Philip Bloom in some videos)
4. Sell 60D Buy BMPCC

Thoughts?

Did you really get any input from some one who owns and uses the d60 and GH3? Be careful, there can be lots of people who read about one offering expert advice.

 

[JasonATL]

I agree with Mt. Spokane. Better yet, if you are considering long-term investments that will eventually cost $1000's over time, it might be worth a few $100s to rent a GH3 (or better yet, borrow one from someone locally) and try it out. Shoot footage on both under the circumstances that you think you will face the most and compare the footage. No expert can tell what you prefer. The thoughts offered here by me (and, I assume, others) is given in the spirit of things to consider. I said it anyway, even though it goes without saying.

 

[jasonmillard81]

Thanks for the replies all!

I've been slowly gathering evidence, reading, watching videos, and man is there a lot to know! I'll be a bit regimented in this post for those that will graciously read/comment in order to make it more accessible.

Goals:

- Record footage and conduct interviews (in public as well as controlled environments)
- Create mini-documentaries on a range of topics that will force me to travel (once again, in public as well as controlled environments)

Equipment:

-Very near to pulling the trigger on a Refurb. Canon 5D Mark III (Currently have a 60D which I am looking to sell hopefully get 500-600)
-Lenses:
*Tamron 17-50
*Sigma 85
*Nifty 50 1.8
-SD 16GB extreme class 10 card (2)
-Standard photo tripod
-Glidecam 2000
-MacBook Pro (2011)
-FCX and Premiere 5.5
-H4N
-NTG-2

Equipment I think I need:

-ND Filter recommendations (Variable vs. Fixed? How many stops? Brand? etc.)
-Lenses (Canon vs. Tamron/Rokinon ... prime vs. zoom ... regular vs. cine ... vintage/nikon/etc)
-Slider (not familiar with these..i've seen some mounted on tripod and others that are on the floor?)
-Creating a "Rig":
- A way to affix h4n and ntg2 (extra shoe mounts etc?)
- do i need a follow/pull focus? or can it be done by hand
-Inexpenseive ViewFinder (zacuto seems expensive)
-Do I need a monopod? Shoulder rig?
-Can I get buy with h4n & ntg2? Do I need wireless mics? Beachtek? (i'm not that familiar with audio)


Keeping in mind that I am a school teacher who is doing this as a highly interested hobbyist and not doing this for commercial work, what would you recommend? I am not looking to spend thousands upon thousands (maybe over years) but i'm also not trying to by garbage, highly sub-par equipment either (I am springing for a 5D MK III).

Video is going to be the overwhelming majority use, with secondary pictures (more important for lens recommendations)

What advice would you give?

Regarding:

1. Equipment recommendations
2. Rig set-up (light/portable/effective)
3. Workflow (editing/recording/etc)
4. Anything else I'm forgetting


Thank you SO much in advance!!!

 

[jasonmillard81]

Hey guys..thanks..not sure what i was looking for was answered...

Do you guys know a better place on this, or another, forum to post these questions? Thanks!

 

[Nishi Drew]

So I didn't read through what everyone else posted, but hey we're in like the exact same situation!
Only I have the 5DII and am seriously thinking of moving to the GH3.
So, I thought of the 60D for a while, and I considered replacing the OLPF to one that would get rid of moire in video, however this renders Photographs soft, while the lack of AFMA in the 60D is already a downer for what I do photographically.

So, I'm still waiting to see what the 70D will be like, because the flip screen is awesome and I want to use my lenses I already have. I too just just got a glidecam, and with a 5DII and large UWA it is way too heavy for any use beyond a minute for me. I also want to flip the glidecam upside down and the flipscreen will allow good control.

The GH3 is simply superior in video as it's built up from scratch to have good video, think of the high DR, high resolving power producing just about as sharp of an image for any video, without hideous moire. The 60D and 5DII are moire beasts, and the 5D Mark III is so soft 1080P looks like 720P.
Which is the other reasons to look at the GH3, don't need to go 720P for 60FPS, it can do great 1080P 60FPS, and then the list goes on, sharp zoom in for manual focus, proper color space and codecs for advanced grading and editing, the body and a lot of lenses are weather sealed, and another important feature for me is recording times as long as the battery or card can handle. A Gh2 was said to record up to 7 hours with an AC adaptor, being able to keep one camera rolling the whole time in a shoot, like covering an event, is super helpful for multicam edits, or just syncing everything.
And just wait until the GH3 is hacked, when the the GH2 turned into a dream machine, the GH3 is already building off of the GH2 as the bigger and better successor.
Though, essentially my dilemma is I don't want to invest in a whole new system, namely glass, I can adapt my current and some legacy lenses sure, but for wide angles that's not easy, and I still do photo work and I'm not too interested in the GH series to cover a wedding.
And the only real advantage of the 5D series is the larger sensor for better DoF control and the lowlight performance, but video is again one of those things that's "just because you can shoot in the dark doesn't mean you should."
Proper video lighting of the scene/subject and any of these cameras do fine

 

[Marsu42]

Hey guys..thanks..not sure what i was looking for was answered...

Maybe you should leave other people some time to see the thread and answer?

1. Keep 60D - buy fast Zeiss/Canon L primes

One other thing though - on the 60d af micro adjustment was removed (thanks, Canon!) so it's not an ideal camera body for fast primes or you have to make sure the specific copies don't need afma when buying them.

 

[jasonmillard81]

Thanks..yea I've figured as much which is why I am going to get a refurb 5DMKIII...was thinking MKII but the improvement for video/audio on MKIII seems worth the extra cash...

 

[StepBack]

Pros for Panasonic are weight, and numerous lenses. Cons: selling your Canon will leave a dent. That's the marketing skill of admen. Addressing the 60d low light and ISO: they r fine. If anything the only difference in that sensor and a full frame Canon is more often than not the 6D/5D3 will give u the uumph that the 60d can't. As for low light the 6D may only depend on the user because samples from amateurs online are mediocre at best to very good and you're not spending much less than the big one. The 6D is an entry level camera and that is sheer nonsense. It's going to make a lot of buyers have remorse than didn't pull the trigger on the D800 or 5d3. That's a financial decision and that's not the best way to choose. So I'd look at the OMD-EM5 and NEX 7 or the XPro1. it's very hard to get objective about these unless u've rented them and used them for a considerable time. For this much of an investment in time and energy and mostly satisfaction and enjoyment it may pay to rent it for a weeks vacation and shoot a thousand or more shots in different conditions. Once u take it off the lot that car is worth a lot less. But if you're serious about the 5D2 I'd look at the 7D also. It's easily as good if not better and resolution for size is not the equalizer. It's the quality of the sensor. Look over the list of lenses u can buy with whatever choice u make. Unless u shoot in bars or a cave all the LL talk is foreign to me. It's a delicate subject that some users brag about when there is nothing else for them to say.

 

[jasonmillard81]

7d = same sensor as 60d so that's not an option but thanks for heads up ill check over suggestions out

 

[Axilrod]

Did you really get any input from some one who owns and uses the d60 and GH3? Be careful, there can be lots of people who read about one offering expert advice.

I haven't used a GH3 but have used a hacked GH2. I've seen pretty much every GH3 video available on the web at this point, and it looks excellent, especially for $1299. And the 60D isn't even close, you don't need to own a GH3 to see that, take a look for yourself.

 

[Axilrod]

One other thing though - on the 60d af micro adjustment was removed (thanks, Canon!) so it's not an ideal camera body for fast primes or you have to make sure the specific copies don't need afma when buying them.

LOL he's using it for video (no need for AF), and Zeiss lenses are all manual focus.

 

[Axilrod]

Thanks for the replies all!

I've been slowly gathering evidence, reading, watching videos, and man is there a lot to know! I'll be a bit regimented in this post for those that will graciously read/comment in order to make it more accessible.

Goals:

- Record footage and conduct interviews (in public as well as controlled environments)
- Create mini-documentaries on a range of topics that will force me to travel (once again, in public as well as controlled environments)

Equipment:

-Very near to pulling the trigger on a Refurb. Canon 5D Mark III (Currently have a 60D which I am looking to sell hopefully get 500-600)
-Lenses:
*Tamron 17-50
*Sigma 85
*Nifty 50 1.8
-SD 16GB extreme class 10 card (2)
-Standard photo tripod
-Glidecam 2000
-MacBook Pro (2011)
-FCX and Premiere 5.5
-H4N
-NTG-2

Equipment I think I need:

-ND Filter recommendations (Variable vs. Fixed? How many stops? Brand? etc.)
-Lenses (Canon vs. Tamron/Rokinon ... prime vs. zoom ... regular vs. cine ... vintage/nikon/etc)
-Slider (not familiar with these..i've seen some mounted on tripod and others that are on the floor?)
-Creating a "Rig":
- A way to affix h4n and ntg2 (extra shoe mounts etc?)
- do i need a follow/pull focus? or can it be done by hand
-Inexpenseive ViewFinder (zacuto seems expensive)
-Do I need a monopod? Shoulder rig?
-Can I get buy with h4n & ntg2? Do I need wireless mics? Beachtek? (i'm not that familiar with audio)


Keeping in mind that I am a school teacher who is doing this as a highly interested hobbyist and not doing this for commercial work, what would you recommend? I am not looking to spend thousands upon thousands (maybe over years) but i'm also not trying to by garbage, highly sub-par equipment either (I am springing for a 5D MK III).

Video is going to be the overwhelming majority use, with secondary pictures (more important for lens recommendations)

What advice would you give?

Regarding:

1. Equipment recommendations
2. Rig set-up (light/portable/effective)
3. Workflow (editing/recording/etc)
4. Anything else I'm forgetting


Thank you SO much in advance!!!

Ok I'll try and answer these:

-ND Filter recommendations (Variable vs. Fixed? How many stops? Brand? etc.):
I'd go variable, if you have different lenses with different filter sizes it will be really expensive trying to buy individual ND's. Genus makes a decent Fader ND, there is a bit of color cast when you really crank it up but it's fixable in post.


-Lenses (Canon vs. Tamron/Rokinon ... prime vs. zoom ... regular vs. cine ... vintage/nikon/etc)
That all depends. Primes are more expensive, but have advantages. Zeiss lenses are amazing but also very expensive. If you want cheap, quality primes check out the Bower/Rokinon/Samyang, 14mm f/2.8, 24mm f/1.4, 35mm f/1.4 and they have cine versions that aren't much more expensive. If you're trying to do pictures as a secondary I'd just get one pretty good zoom with AF so you have something for that.

-Slider (not familiar with these..i've seen some mounted on tripod and others that are on the floor?)
Yes, sliders can really add professionalism to your videos, there is something about a camera gliding on a completely level plane that just looks beautiful. Some have legs that allow you to place them on the ground (or whatever surface) and most can be attached to a tripod. The Cinevate Atlas 10 is a cheaper one that comes to mind. There are lots of cheap sliders out there nowadays, on the higher end side there is the Kessler Cineslider and their Pocket Dolly is pretty nice too.

-Creating a "Rig":
Rigs are nice to have but I would worry about a nice tripod w/fluid head first. There are tons of options out there, everything from the round Manfrotto Fig Rig to a high end Redrock Micro or Zacuto Rig. I like Redrock's stuff and have a customized Cinema Deluxe Bundle but it was probably $3000 after everything was said and done. Check out eBay and Jag35, again there are lots of options out there. I'd also check ebay for used RedRock Micro stuff, I checked prices not too long ago to see what I could get for mine and remember being shocked at how much they had depreciated, so definitely check there. They are rock solid and reasonably light for their size.

- A way to affix h4n and ntg2 (extra shoe mounts etc?)
Yeah beachtek makes a thing that gives you a bunch of extra mounts, i use that in these types of situations, but again there are alot of options out there.

- do i need a follow/pull focus? or can it be done by hand
You can try and do it by hand if you want, but yes I'd highly recommend one. It just depends on the setup, on a tripod you could probably get away with not using one, but on a rig it would be more difficult. There are some cheaper options out there I'm sure, haven't had to look in a while

-Inexpenseive ViewFinder (zacuto seems expensive)
Go on Amazon and search "LCDVF"

-Do I need a monopod? Shoulder rig?
Monopods can be great for small spaces, but if you do go ahead and one made specifically for video. Manfrotto has one that has an actual tripod head on it, it's about $300.

-Can I get buy with h4n & ntg2? Do I need wireless mics? Beachtek? (i'm not that familiar with audio)
Yes, the H4n and NTG2 will work fine for what you are doing, you may want to consider renting some Sennheiser lav mics if you ever have to do more high quality interviews.

 

[Axilrod]

Honestly I think you should give it a shot with the gear you already have. After the shoot ask yourself what could have made the job easier, and decide what you need next from there.