What could I do better?

[striking_reflections]

Back button focus would have absolutely no impact on this image, as a technique I hate it, I do use back button AF off on occasions, so don't look at it as a panacea.

As for what could you do, well as has been pointed out the 70-300 is a bit limited with regards IQ, but the focus does seem a little off. I believe Magic Lantern has a Micro AF adjustment feature on the 60D so that might be worth looking into. But the other thing that might be worth testing is the IS, at 1/1000 shutter speed the IS might actually be hurting your IQ, certainly it has been tested on Nikon's and found to be counter productive, but I'd test the lens and body to see if it helps or not with your combo at those shutter speeds.

I agree as far as it not impacting overall image. You can't create sharpness you either have the focus locked in or don't. I was just saying it in reference to recomposing for the following shots that he missed because of being in one-shot drive. With him using back button focusing the servo mode would have helped especially with being able to just hold the back button to constantly focus on target and get the image sharp even with the animals moving. As far as him liking the method it is just a matter of preference at that point however i believe going through the learning curve is worth it.

 

[privatebydesign]

I agree, try everything once or twice. I just find the advice and enthusiasm for BBF to be very heavy handed often times, as I said, I actively don't like it but the enthusiasm for it makes me think people sometimes try to push square pegs into round holes. I believe most people would actually rather be committed to one button press for AF and exposure rather than two (though CR posters are not atypical) this is probably why it is like that out of the box, there is nothing more frustrating than thinking you have a good sequence only to realise you never actually activated the AF.

I also got a little frustrated at the lack of actual practical advice when that was all tntwit actually asked about, he didn't ask for the endless critiques he ended up getting, just info on why, specifically, his subjects were not as sharp as he expected.

 

[fatmanmedi]

from my viewing of the image, the camera has focused on the background rather than the deer, i would set your camera to point focus, focus on the deer's eyes and recompose and take the shoot.

i would also suggest a monopod it will give you a hell of a lot of stability for not much outlay.

Fats

 

[Lurker]

If you have a chance, setup the camera prior to stepping out the door. Even if you can't see the deer through a window if you can see an area with the same lighting that will work.

Due to circumstances similar to what you had, with varying amounts of snow (or water, or deep shade, or . . .) I tend to use spot metering and meter a known tone. In this case I would have tried to meter off the snow or the white tail. The meter will under expose this situation so I'll add 1-2/3 to 2 stops. Again, you could test this through a window. Verify exposure with your histogram, expose to the right without clipping anything on the right side of the graph.

It looks like this was close to mid day based on the shadows but there is some back lighting. This means the side of the deer your seeing is in shadow so set the white balance to shade or cloudy. In LR take the white balance and run it around some of the whites that aren't over exposed. Most of the whites will have a blue cast (higher % then the other 2 colors).

How far away were the deer? I'm guessing about 60 feet. Check out the depth of field chart:
http://www.dofmaster.com/doftable.html
At this distance and f/8 your depth of field would be about 3 feet. Which nose did you focus on? If you selected the right deer then the left deer would have to be within 1.5 feet of depth to be in focus. So trade shutter speed for more aperture. With IS you may be able drop as low as 1/80 second and still not have motion blur. This depends on your stability and skill which will come with practice.

If you focus and recompose you have to keep the shutter release pressed half way which can be hard to do and even harder to realize if you slipped and re-focused. I +1 the back button focus idea. Also the Servo mode, even for stationary subjects. With narrow depths of field our natural front-to-back swaying can impact the in focus area. IS will take care of side to side motion or up and down motion but it can't correct for front to back sway. I don't think any swaying would explain the focus shift from the deer to the bushes behind them, the camera just missed somehow. In this case, if you're trying to get both faces in focus I'd focus on the shoulder or ribs of the right hand deer. It looks like that is about 1/2 way between the 2 faces. f you need to pick one to be in focus I'd usually make the front deer unless there is something more compelling about the one in back.

Not sure if these are country deer or city deer. City deer are more used to people being around. Country deer are more used to being shot at by people. I'm in the city and I've found that I can get really close to the deer. Move slowly and look away from the deer, act like you're not interested in them. I also tend to talk as I'm moving around, predators are usually very quiet while hunting. Sitting down in plain view can also help them relax.

I think the grainy look you mentioned is noise due to the 400 ISO, shade on the deer, and under exposure. It is pretty easy to deal with post processing and there are lots of tutorials about this. One tool I'm trying to learn to control noise is to use Canon DPP to read the RAW file and convert it to a TIF file. DPP does a better job of processing the RAW file and produces finer noise which is easier to correct. LR can import and work with the TIF files.

Don't worry about hardware, what you have is able to make wonderful images. The only way hardware would have helped in this case is if the lens is actually back focusing. With some cameras you can do micro focus adjustments but the 60D doesn't let you do that.

You can also setup exposure bracketing. This will take 3 photos each time with varying exposures, you set the amount of variance for each image. If you're not sure about the correct exposure this is a good way to "try it" and learn which one worked best.

 

[Hjalmarg1]

Hi TNTWIT, great question. I'll try to address the two major questions you asked...

1) Would a 6D and or a 70-200L lens made a big difference?
- Higher quality gear will always produce better images from the pixel-peeping perspective (considering focus and camera shake is controlled.) However, getting a better image with your current gear should be your concern at the moment.
- A 6D with 70-200 lens would NOT have provided you with as much zoom as you currently obtained, which means you would have most likely had more window sil and door frame in the image, requiring more cropping and less available pixels.

Gear-talk aside, I think you can improve your next deer encounter with these steps...

2) "... I was in a hurry to make settings on the camera."
- Set up the scene before disturbing it. Get your camera settings nailed, high speed shutter setting, focus point (maybe not center point if you anticipate them moving.)
- It appears you did focus on the brush. If you aimed for the nose, that's a tight spot to hit. Next time, try aiming for the rump/tail of the front deer (only because the back deer is blocking the brush too.)
- Once you open the door, start the rapid fire shooting.

Good luck!
~T

+1
I agree that pre-planning may have help you. Also consider single point AF rather than the auto (multizone) AF, since it will very likely focus on something else instead of your subject. Strech your options by shooting in the highest burst in Servo Mode.
Your high end gear will help in better IQ but it will not solve the wrong focus issue.

 

[tntwit]

No problem...this is a great article even though the pics don't upload it definitely explains in detail why you should use back button focusing. https://www.clickinmoms.com/blog/how-to-use-back-button-focusing-tutorial/ take a look at it and let me know what you think

This was a great article, thank you. It is late, so I will have to try it out tomorrow with active children.

There was a debate in the comments that didn't get resolved/responded to, however.

They (Richard) argued that in AI Servo (whether continuous shot mode or single shot) the camera would continue to focus even when the shutter button was fully depressed, negating the advantage of BBF.

I thought once the shutter button was fully depressed the camera would NOT continue to focus, thus the advantage of BBF where it WOULD continuously focus.

If Richard is correct, then maybe I missed the advantage.

The Canon manual isn't clear, but it says if you use AI Servo the continuous shoot speed may be "slightly slower" depending on the lens and subject. This would seem to indicate that the camera is continuing to focus.

 

[tntwit]

I believe Magic Lantern has a Micro AF adjustment feature on the 60D so that might be worth looking into.

I'll have to check, though I have some reservations about messing with firmware. It makes me a bit uneasy, at least on a camera I just bought.

 

[tntwit]

from my viewing of the image, the camera has focused on the background rather than the deer, i would set your camera to point focus, focus on the deer's eyes and recompose and take the shoot.

i would also suggest a monopod it will give you a hell of a lot of stability for not much outlay.

Fats

The camera was set to center point focus. I believe I focused on the nose and recomposed, but I cannot recall whether I focused and recomposed. I know I did on some of the shots, but I took a ton of photos and I don't know if on this particular shot that was the method used.

I tried to use Canon Zoom Browser to figure it out, as it will show the focus point(s), but I realized that it will show the point(s), but it doesn't know if you recomposed or not.

This is why I think AI Servo mode would have been better as has been suggested by many posters and I think something closer to F11 (as was suggested) along with focusing on the deer body instead of the nose (because the nose is too small - this was also suggested) all would contribute to better results.

The monopod is great tool. I do have one and do not use it enough. I tend to either use a tripod or go handheld, but the monopod gives a lot of the benefit with very little hassle or set up. We have one at work and I don't use it enough there either, but I find it useful there as well when I do (we make large (up to 60 feet long) industrial furnaces and I take photos in our production facility mostly for the instruction manuals but sometimes for Marketing when they don't bring in a pro). It seems to be produce a higher hit rate at slow shutter speeds as compared to just hand holding with IS. I used it with IS still on, but now that I think about it, I'm not sure I should have. But the results did seem better - more keepers in terms of sharp photos.

 

[tntwit]

If you have a chance, setup the camera prior to stepping out the door. Even if you can't see the deer through a window if you can see an area with the same lighting that will work.

Due to circumstances similar to what you had, with varying amounts of snow (or water, or deep shade, or . . .) I tend to use spot metering and meter a known tone. In this case I would have tried to meter off the snow or the white tail. The meter will under expose this situation so I'll add 1-2/3 to 2 stops. Again, you could test this through a window. Verify exposure with your histogram, expose to the right without clipping anything on the right side of the graph.

The camera was set to spot meter - but the metering was still going nuts. This is still great advice. I was just in to much of a nervous/hurry up state to slow down a bit and take a bit more time to set up.

How far away were the deer? I'm guessing about 60 feet. Check out the depth of field chart:
http://www.dofmaster.com/doftable.html

Good eye - 60 feet is just about right. Thanks for the link!

If you focus and recompose you have to keep the shutter release pressed half way which can be hard to do and even harder to realize if you slipped and re-focused.

I think you're right - we tend to move around more than we realize and where the AI Servo may be the better answer.

Not sure if these are country deer or city deer. City deer are more used to people being around. Country deer are more used to being shot at by people. I'm in the city and I've found that I can get really close to the deer. Move slowly and look away from the deer, act like you're not interested in them. I also tend to talk as I'm moving around, predators are usually very quiet while hunting. Sitting down in plain view can also help them relax.

We have hunting in and around this area so they are nervous. But your advice is interesting none the less.

I think the grainy look you mentioned is noise due to the 400 ISO, shade on the deer, and under exposure. It is pretty easy to deal with post processing and there are lots of tutorials about this. One tool I'm trying to learn to control noise is to use Canon DPP to read the RAW file and convert it to a TIF file. DPP does a better job of processing the RAW file and produces finer noise which is easier to correct. LR can import and work with the TIF files.

Good to know, thanks!

Don't worry about hardware, what you have is able to make wonderful images.

Yes, I definitely can improve my part of the equation more. Thanks for all your great advice!

 

[FTb-n]

I have the 60D and the 70-300 non-L. I upgraded to the 70-200 f2.8L II a couple years ago and it is considerably sharper. I feared that I would miss the extra reach of the 300, but I did some testing by shooting the 70-300 at 300 and then shooting 70-200 at 200 and cropping to get the same field of view as the 300. In my findings, the cropped 70-200 is still sharper than the 70-300.

Note that focusing the 70-200 may be more accurate because it can better leverage the 60D's center focus point which is more sensitive with 2.8 lenses.

I also highly recommend back-button-focusing.

Regarding AI Servo, it helps to understand that this is a predictive focusing mode. The camera tracks the subject's movement and predicts where the subject will be when the shutter is actually released. Part of this is to keep the subject in focus during its movement while shooting at max burst mode. With the 70-300, this may not be a big deal because the smaller aperture and the larger DOF gives you a greater margin of error. But, with the 2.8 lens, the small DOF, and a fast moving subject; the subject could move out of focus during that very short window between firing the shutter button and releasing the shutter or during burst shots.

Because AI Servo is predictive, focusing is more accurate if you give the camera a second to record the subject movement before firing the shutter. Try to press the focus button a second or so before you anticipate firing the shutter.

Also, note that AI Servo is more accurate while subject movement is in the same direction. If the subject suddenly changes direction, AI Servo can take a second to detect and track the change. I've learned this first hand with figure skating. This is where the 7D is great asset because it has a processor dedication to focusing and it responds much quicker to erratic movement. With the 60D, it helps to get in the habit of momentarily lifting your finger off the focus button when the subject changes direction. This forces the system to start tracking all over and ignore the data from the subject's previous movement.

 

[mackguyver]

I have the 60D and the 70-300 non-L. I upgraded to the 70-200 f2.8L II a couple years ago and it is considerably sharper. I feared that I would miss the extra reach of the 300, but I did some testing by shooting the 70-300 at 300 and then shooting 70-200 at 200 and cropping to get the same field of view as the 300. In my findings, the cropped 70-200 is still sharper than the 70-300.

I upgraded to the 70-200 f/4 IS + 1.4x extender - here's why. I eventually got the 70-200 2.8 IS II, but that combo served me well for many years.

Also, +1 on learning to use back button AF. Once you get the hang of it, you'll never go back.

 

[Lurker]

As to the back button focus questions . . .

Once BBF is setup the focus is not connected to the shutter release at all.

If you press the focus button the focus will engage according to the rules for the focus mode selected. If you release the focus button the focus will not change, not in any of the focus modes.

So, in a situation like yours you would BBF and release, recompose, press the shutter release. This is essentially the same as single shot mode but you don't have to hold the shutter release half way down while recomposing.

If you hold the focus button then the camera will continue to refocus. This is where some confusion comes in. What I've read, but the author stated that canon would not confirm or deny, is that the camera will continue to track focus even while the shutter button is pressed. With the focus and shutter on the same button focus tracking stops when the shutter is activated. This is a small differance but it has some important implications when working with narrow depth of field or fast moving objects. We are all naturally unstable and we sway. Holding the focus button in AI Servo allows the camera to continuously adjust focus to compensate for our movements, even while taking pictures. Again, based on your results, BBF and AI Servo would not have solved the focus issue you had. It's hard (impossilbe) to say exactly what happened and why the focus was on the bushes.

In your situation, where you wanted to recompose, holding the focus button would not work. The focus would be reset as you recomposed. In order to use BBF continuously, in AI Servo mode, you'd have to select a different focus point and put that point where you wanted to focus. In this situation you were shooting in full sun so you'd be fine using any of the focus points. The additional capability of the center point really comes into play in low light/low contrast situations.

Also know, it is 100% ok to shoot a bullseye shot and then crop it to give the desired composition. I used to think all those other photogs were so lucky or so skilled they always ended up in exactly the right place and time to get that perfect photo. Now I know better. Not that there isn't a lot of skill, knowledge, time, and hard work involved but there are also a lot of setup and post processing "tricks" to help capture those perfect shots.

 

[Ripley]

I don't have time to read through this whole thread right now but I did see a few things you said relative to your skill level influencing the quality of that picture. I just want to encourage you that if your photography interest continues to grow, so will your skills - and so should your equipment. Don't underestimate the difference between pro gear and consumer gear. Check out this link as food for thought... it's the difference between a crop sensor camera and the 70-300, and a full frame sensor camera and the 70-300L:

http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=358&Camera=736&Sample=0&FLI=4&API=1&LensComp=738&CameraComp=453&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=4&APIComp=1

BTW, awesome photo! I'm sure you'll be a little better prepared next time...

 

[tntwit]

If you hold the focus button then the camera will continue to refocus. This is where some confusion comes in. What I've read, but the author stated that canon would not confirm or deny, is that the camera will continue to track focus even while the shutter button is pressed.

This may be why it doesn't seem clear in the manual, it just says that it may slow down (continuous shooting speed).

It's hard (impossilbe) to say exactly what happened and why the focus was on the bushes.

I think trying to focus on the nose at 60 feet away was probably unrealistic. I think either I moved or there was just enough error in where it focuses to miss the deer and either way it focused on what does appear to be the bushes.

 

[tntwit]

I don't have time to read through this whole thread right now but I did see a few things you said relative to your skill level influencing the quality of that picture. I just want to encourage you that if your photography interest continues to grow, so will your skills - and so should your equipment. Don't underestimate the difference between pro gear and consumer gear. Check out this link as food for thought... it's the difference between a crop sensor camera and the 70-300, and a full frame sensor camera and the 70-300L:

http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=358&Camera=736&Sample=0&FLI=4&API=1&LensComp=738&CameraComp=453&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=4&APIComp=1

BTW, awesome photo! I'm sure you'll be a little better prepared next time...

I've played around with that site before. What I would like to see is what a 6D looks like with the 70-200 f4 IS. I wasn't able to find that, just the 1D and I don't know if that would be anything like a 6D.

However, I could pit the 70-300 non L mounted on a 60D against the 70-200 F4 IS mounted to both a 60D and the 1D. Either way the L glass was cleaner at 200, but the 1D seemed to make a much bigger difference, which is why I am curious how the 6D would compare since the 1D is way too expensive for a hobby.

 

[mackguyver]

I've played around with that site before. What I would like to see is what a 6D looks like with the 70-200 f4 IS. I wasn't able to find that, just the 1D and I don't know if that would be anything like a 6D.

However, I could pit the 70-300 non L mounted on a 60D against the 70-200 F4 IS mounted to both a 60D and the 1D. Either way the L glass was cleaner at 200, but the 1D seemed to make a much bigger difference, which is why I am curious how the 6D would compare since the 1D is way too expensive for a hobby.

The 6D & 1D results should match up fairly well, particularly in terms of full frame vs. crop, but these test crops can be a bit deceiving because the size doesn't match. The jump in sharpness and overall image quality from crop to FF sensor is noticeable, but the benefits of FF are mostly in high ISO shots and the ability to use lenses at their native focal lengths. Lens quality is typically more important and if you really want to get into wildlife photography, your money is best spent on the Canon 70-300L or the Tamron 150-600 vs. upgrading your 60D. Both of those lenses are considerably sharper than the 70-300 non-L is at 300mm and will make the most difference. I think the Tamron is a steal and unless you are really good at getting close to wildlife, the 600mm (960mm on a crop sensor) would make a massive difference in the type of photos you can take.

 

[tntwit]

Lens quality is typically more important and if you really want to get into wildlife photography, your money is best spent on the Canon 70-300L or the Tamron 150-600 vs. upgrading your 60D. Both of those lenses are considerably sharper than the 70-300 non-L is at 300mm and will make the most difference. I think the Tamron is a steal and unless you are really good at getting close to wildlife, the 600mm (960mm on a crop sensor) would make a massive difference in the type of photos you can take.

Wildlife is more of a secondary interest...kids, soccer games, indoor school events where low light is an issue (and why I eventually want FF) are more typical at this point.

I have been targeting the 70-200 F4 IS as a purchase, but I was wondering about the 70-300L as it gets many positive comments here and now I was curious as to what the minimum F stop is at 200 mm. If it is F4 (probably not) it would give up nothing to the 70-200 F4 IS in terms of performance.

 

[mackguyver]

Lens quality is typically more important and if you really want to get into wildlife photography, your money is best spent on the Canon 70-300L or the Tamron 150-600 vs. upgrading your 60D. Both of those lenses are considerably sharper than the 70-300 non-L is at 300mm and will make the most difference. I think the Tamron is a steal and unless you are really good at getting close to wildlife, the 600mm (960mm on a crop sensor) would make a massive difference in the type of photos you can take.

Wildlife is more of a secondary interest...kids, soccer games, indoor school events where low light is an issue (and why I eventually want FF) are more typical at this point.

I have been targeting the 70-200 F4 IS as a purchase, but I was wondering about the 70-300L as it gets many positive comments here and now I was curious as to what the minimum F stop is at 200 mm. If it is F4 (probably not) it would give up nothing to the 70-200 F4 IS in terms of performance.

If that's the case, the 70-200 f/4 IS or 70-300L should both work well, and according to table in The Digital Picture Review it's at f/5 from 155-228mm.

I had and loved the 70-200 f/4 IS for years, but have never tried the 70-300L, but I hear great things about it. The decision is going to come down to the extra 100mm vs. the faster speed, but remember you can always add an extender to get to 280. With a crop sensor, 200mm is likely enough for most of the purposes you describe above, short of shooting from the opposite end of the field or back of the auditorium. Remember that f/4 won't be enough (without a FF body at least) to shoot fast moving subjects in low light without reaching to ISO 3200 or above.

 

[tntwit]

Remember that f/4 won't be enough (without a FF body at least) to shoot fast moving subjects in low light without reaching to ISO 3200 or above.

Yes, I'm aware, but ultimately I want to pair it (or the 70-300 L) to the 6D which should be a nice combination that would be roughly 2 stops ahead of what I have now at 200. And on the 60D (the 70-200) it'll still be 2/3 faster at 200 along with all the other benefits of the L.