Why are flash sync shutter speeds getting worse?

[bbasiaga]

I suspect that design limitations are nearing regarding the shutter technology (as someone said above). Add to that increasingly complex and capable speedlight systems that make HSS easier, and you get lack of attention to designing faster shutters.

In one justification, the MFG can give you a 'cheaper camera' (with slower shutter xsync), and then charge only those who need higher speeds extra for their flash systems. In another justification, they force you to pay extra to sync at 300 because they are greedy b*stards.

-Brian

 

[willhuff.net]

I'd buy a FF EVF DSLR if it could allow for x-sync at 1/1000 or faster.

 

[Drizzt321]

Thanks everyone for the great input. I love the 1/250th flas sync on my 60D and was shocked that the 5d mark ii and iii only have 1/200th despite the 5d mark iii being 2.5-3x the price. And the D700 and D800 both have 1/250th. I do notice a difference with max flash sync between 1/250th and say 1/180th - namely w/blurred waving hands. my 60d + the pop up flash is always on 1/250th for indoor candids of my toddler. One of the features I like the most on the 60d is the wireless trigger to the 430 ex ii....here's to hoping cano's future ff are 1/250th flasj sync or faster

With the 5d2 (and 5d3 I believe) it's limited to 1/200 likely due more to use of similar level of shutter technology & specs, but having a physically larger area to transit across. Thus, having to slow it down. With the 1D series, as Neuro has said, has had 1/250 since it's probably the fastest they can make the shutter for a 35-mm FF without starting to get astronomically expensive (if it's even feasible), or switching to some other kind of shutter tech.

 

[cpsico]

I may be wrong, but with High Speed Sync on a flash, max sync shutter speed becomes less relevant.

Yes but with a penalty in maximum flash power, and you must buy an expensive flash capable of HSS

 

[Drizzt321]

I may be wrong, but with High Speed Sync on a flash, max sync shutter speed becomes less relevant.

Yes but with a penalty in maximum flash power, and you must buy an expensive flash capable of HSS

And have several of them in order to makeup for the lost power, as well have one mounted on your camera or somewhat expensive to very expensive RF triggers which can do the wireless ETTL w/HSS.

 

[Hillsilly]

I wouldn't say they are getting worse. Just not getting better. For the better part of the last twenty years most mid range Canons have been around the 1/180 - 1/200s mark. Less than 10 years ago, a lot of Canon bodies were still in the 1/90 - 1/125s range. Unfortunately, it seems you can have a fast max shutter speed, or a fast sync speed, but you can't have both. I might be sounding like a Canon apologist, but I prefer the option of a faster shutter speed on my DSLRs for action photos (if I want faster sync speed, I'll just use of my medium format cameras - but then I can't go out in the sun or I have to use very small apertures). Now, where did Canon put that 1/8000s shutter speed....

 

[hyles]

When balancing ambient and flash light in low light, i usually use speed of 1/100, sometimes faster and with static subject even slower.
In low iso's bright light shot, even 1/250 is a slow speed if you don't want to use narrow f-stop. In this case i switch to HSS.
Although a shorter sinc speed would have been mutch better, i don't see 1/180vs 1/200 to be a real problem .
As far as i remenber the only eosD to have 1/500 was the 1D with its fast 1/16000 shutter. But it used a CCD, so the faster sinc was obtained cutting power to the sensor instead of closing the shutter, this was (is?) not possible with cmos, this is why this feature was not present on other reflx.
Diego

 

[swrightgfx]

This limitation is one of the reasons why medium format camera systems (where the size of the shutter would be greater, and thus maximum synch speed lower) tended to use a leaf shutter. The leaf shutter rather like the lens aperture has concentric blades and can close and open fully, thus at any speed you can always get flash synch (although I cannot recall ever seeing anything higher than 1/800 sec).

I agree. Yet another reason shooting film is still relevant and vital. Not only can I sync a flash to 1/500, but I can even handhold a Bronica SQ-Ai at 1/15 and still get a sharp shot, too.

 

[racgordon]

Has anyone given any thought to my throwaway idea about "Faking" a fast synch speed by taking a 1/1000 sec sample of a 1/200 exposure. Now granted it would do nothing for those using a strobe to fill in foreground illumination when shooting outdoors and other advanced fill flash work, but I could be an interesting tool for wedding/event photographers.

If you think about it it is sort of HDR in reverse, but for I think this would have to be something done within the camera and not something I think you can do post processing.

There might be other uses for this type of function, what we are doing is to take 4 samples of sensor output during a 1/200 second when flash us used (and 1/200 sec is the max synch speed). I think that combining a number of "sub samples" like this of a series of shots might allow all sorts of interesting effects.

Does anyone have any opinions?

 

[stewy]

It would be nice if at least Canon's 1D line supported 1/500 or 1/1000 sync speed. Its a noticeable difference in light intensity when going from full sync to high speed sync. Add a light modifier to soften the light and that makes things even worse.

 

[paul13walnut5]

Has anyone given any thought to my throwaway idea about "Faking" a fast synch speed by taking a 1/1000 sec sample of a 1/200 exposure. Now granted it would do nothing for those using a strobe to fill in foreground illumination when shooting outdoors and other advanced fill flash work, but I could be an interesting tool for wedding/event photographers.

If you are lighting a scene purely by flash, then essentially your exposure duration is not your shutter speed, but the duration of the actual flash of light. Which is a lot faster than 1/200th or 1/250th.

And as you say, such an idea wouldn't do much where fill flash is being used, which is were the problem actually is: at fast shutters in bright ambient light.

Your sample would also need to take place at the exact same 1/1000th of a second that the flash actually flashes at...

Maybe Canon will come up with a portrait lens with a leaf shutter? That would be another way of solving the problem.

And your idea of multiple samples would only really work with multiple flash bursts, which is kind of what HSS mode already does, except that each sample occours over a different portion of the sensor as the shutter curtain moves.

The issue with this mode is of course, reduced output.

 

[Jeffrey]

Leaf shutters make all the difference in shutter speeds, but then you need to be careful that the lights will synch at speeds faster than 1/250. Surprisingly many lights won't synch at faster speeds including some models of the most popular pro level lights. Oddly enough, the Paul Buff brand Einstein model light packs do synch at very fast shutter speeds and they cost a fraction of the higher end pro level lights.

Having been lucky enough to shoot with a camera and lights that synch at 1/1600, the image captures of a model in motion in the studio are wonderful.

 

[KyleSTL]

I understand the limitations everyone is bring up about killing higher levels of ambient light with a faster SS, however, the 6D (which is what prompted this thread) is a consumer level camera (i.e. and 'entry-level' full frame DSLR). For more advanced users that would have the need for a strobist setup and more complicated techniques, higher end cameras fulfill the need for a fast sync speed. I would say the majority of 6D owners would not be limited by the lower spec. I think we all need to compare apples-to-apples though, as far as sensor size is concerned. Here's how I see it:

Full Frame

1/300 - Nikon F5
1/250 - Canon 1Ds series, 1Dx, and highest-end film cameras (EOS 620, EOS 1, 1N, 1V), Nikon D3, D4, D700, D800, F4, F6, F100, F90, F801 (N8008)
1/200 - Canon 5D series, prosumer film cameras (EOS 3, 5), Nikon D600
1/180 - Canon 6D
1/125 - lots of Canon and Nikon middle-to-low-end film cameras
1/90 - "

APS-H

1/500 - 1D
1/300 - 1D Mark III, IV
1/250 - 1D Mark II
1/200 - EOS IX (APS film SLR)
1/180 - Nikon Pronea 6i (APS film SLR)
1/125 - EOS IX Lite, Nikon Pronea S (APS film SLR)

APS-C

1/500 - Nikon D1 series, D70, D70s, D50, D40
1/250 - Canon 20D through 60D, 7D, Nikon D2 series, D200, D300, D300S, D7000
1/200 - Canon D30, D60, 10D, Rebels, EOS M, Nikon D90, D80, D60, D40x, Dxxxx
1/180 - Nikon D100

One cannot compare sync speeds between cameras when sensor size is different. Look up at the full frame section and notice where the highest-end film cameras ever made are, and also where the EOS 3 and EOS 5 were. The industry does not look like they have made huge steps back as the forums seem to indicate (especially with regards to prices and other available technologies included in the cameras and flashes). Prior to the AF era sync speeds were even worse (T50, T60 = 1/60, T80 = 1/80, T70 = 1/90), except for T90 (1/250).

I'm still a little baffled by the 1/500 sync speed on the oldest Nikon APS-C DSLRs, but clearly Nikon hasn't gone back to that since.

EDIT: Added APS Film SLRs just for comparison.

 

[KyleSTL]

I was hoping my breakdown would add to the discussion, but it seems to have died. I think that organizing them by image size shows that the overall distance travelled affects sync speed.

If I remember correctly from my Art Photography classes the vertical plane shutters at their highest speeds (1/1000+) never have the entire frame exposed at the same time. Essential what happens is a slit between the upper and lower blades travels down the frame. That is what affects the sync speed because the entire frame needs to be exposed during the short burst of light provided by the flash. I would assume that the sync speeds listed above are the shortest intervals each camera is able to have the whole frame exposed prior to the dropping of the upper blade. Someone with more intimate knowledge about shutter design may be able to backup or refute my statements.

 

[Loswr]

That is what affects the sync speed because the entire frame needs to be exposed during the short burst of light provided by the flash. I would assume that the sync speeds listed above are the shortest intervals each camera is able to have the whole frame exposed prior to the dropping of the upper blade.

Absolutely correct.

 

[DB]

Here's what Ken Rockwell has to say on the subject. He debunks the myth that new camera models with better ISO can compensate for slower shutter sync

http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/syncspeed.htm