Why You Should Stick with Your Canon DSLR and Forget Sony FF Mirrorless

Larsskv

EOS R
Jun 12, 2015
847
294
msm said:
Larsskv said:
dilbert said:
Larsskv said:
dilbert said:
Larsskv said:
...
Or, like we Canon users can do, sell the old camera for a noticable amount, making the upgrade affordable.

It is an attempt to "trade in" an old camera for a new except that the camera dealer doesn't want your old camera (or would offer very little for it.)

The only reason you sell the old camera for a reasonable amount is that people perceive the old one to still be worth something.

This "selling the old camera" is a large part of the reason behind everyone wanting features to not increase too much from camera to camera: the newer one being not too different means the older one seems like it is worth more. Hence lots of people wanting "8fps/22MP" - it isn't just the "8fps" people want but they also want the number of megapixels to be close to the same as their 5D2/5D3.

The main problem is people who purchase second hand cameras pay way too much for them (in general.)
...
The Canons are worth something used because they are good at taking pictures, ergonomic, user friendly, and people expect them to be working even if the warranty period is out.
...

But they're old technology.

A used camera that is 2 years old is a very old piece of technology. Would you pay top dollar for a 2 year old computer? It still runs Windows, it still lets you surf the web, etc.

Rinse and repeat with cars, TV, etc. To me, a 5 year old digital HD TV is something that I give away, not sell.

Personally, I don't buy a camera based on what I expect to sell it for. I buy a camera to use. My challenge is to make sure that I get $1000 or $2000 or $3000 worth of value out of it before I buy the next one.

How much does a used car cost (proportionally) after being used for 1 year?
How much does a used car cost (proportionally) after being used for 2 years?

Does anyone buy a new car based on what they'll sell it for when they're done?

The market for used Canon gear disagree with you. Here in Norway, a 4 year old 5D3 sells for more than twice as much as a 1 1/2 year old A7.

If money is a concern, which I guess it is for most of us, resale value matters, and I find it foolish to state otherwise.

Yep and seeing how a new 5D3 actually sells for 3x the cost of a new A7 here in Norway I can't really see you building a very strong case here for your claim that Canon holds second hand value better. :p

And seeing that the 5D3 is due for an update soon that value might be about to take a big dive too.

Thank you for pointing this out. The release price of the Sony A7 was NOK 13500 in late 2013. At about the same time, the 5D3 was offered at NOK 19995 at Elkjop, here in Norway.

Today, you can buy a used A7 for NOK 6000, and the 5DIII goes for NOK 15000. Point taken?
 

msm

EOS RP
Jun 8, 2013
309
1
Larsskv said:
msm said:
Larsskv said:
dilbert said:
Larsskv said:
dilbert said:
Larsskv said:
...
Or, like we Canon users can do, sell the old camera for a noticable amount, making the upgrade affordable.

It is an attempt to "trade in" an old camera for a new except that the camera dealer doesn't want your old camera (or would offer very little for it.)

The only reason you sell the old camera for a reasonable amount is that people perceive the old one to still be worth something.

This "selling the old camera" is a large part of the reason behind everyone wanting features to not increase too much from camera to camera: the newer one being not too different means the older one seems like it is worth more. Hence lots of people wanting "8fps/22MP" - it isn't just the "8fps" people want but they also want the number of megapixels to be close to the same as their 5D2/5D3.

The main problem is people who purchase second hand cameras pay way too much for them (in general.)
...
The Canons are worth something used because they are good at taking pictures, ergonomic, user friendly, and people expect them to be working even if the warranty period is out.
...

But they're old technology.

A used camera that is 2 years old is a very old piece of technology. Would you pay top dollar for a 2 year old computer? It still runs Windows, it still lets you surf the web, etc.

Rinse and repeat with cars, TV, etc. To me, a 5 year old digital HD TV is something that I give away, not sell.

Personally, I don't buy a camera based on what I expect to sell it for. I buy a camera to use. My challenge is to make sure that I get $1000 or $2000 or $3000 worth of value out of it before I buy the next one.

How much does a used car cost (proportionally) after being used for 1 year?
How much does a used car cost (proportionally) after being used for 2 years?

Does anyone buy a new car based on what they'll sell it for when they're done?

The market for used Canon gear disagree with you. Here in Norway, a 4 year old 5D3 sells for more than twice as much as a 1 1/2 year old A7.

If money is a concern, which I guess it is for most of us, resale value matters, and I find it foolish to state otherwise.

Yep and seeing how a new 5D3 actually sells for 3x the cost of a new A7 here in Norway I can't really see you building a very strong case here for your claim that Canon holds second hand value better. :p

And seeing that the 5D3 is due for an update soon that value might be about to take a big dive too.

Thank you for pointing this out. The release price of the Sony A7 was NOK 13500 in late 2013. At about the same time, the 5D3 was offered at NOK 19995 at Elkjop, here in Norway.

Today, you can buy a used A7 for NOK 6000, and the 5DIII goes for NOK 15000. Point taken?

I do not care about about second hand prices and don't really want to discuss it, but:

It do not think it is fair to compare the release time price of the A7 to the all time low of the 5D3 (which lasted maybe a month and probably was a campaign). Almost all the 5D3s sold have been bought at a significantly higher price and a large part of the A7 sales have been at a lower price.

As for people wanting cheap gear, an a7 + some Sigma Art lenses and the sigma adapter is a really cheap way to get started with a very capable system for a very reasonable cost. And the Sigma lens autofocus precision is perfect when adapted on A7 cameras.
 

MickDK

5D3
Apr 28, 2014
45
7
Denmark
Larsskv said:
Today, you can buy a used A7 for NOK 6000, and the 5DIII goes for NOK 15000. Point taken?
Here in Denmark things are somewhat different:

Used A7: 5700 DKK (original price in 2013 was 13500 DKK, new price today 9000 DKK)

Used 5D3: 9000 DKK (original price in 2012 was 25000 DKK, new price today 21000 DKK)
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
CR Pro
Jul 21, 2010
25,598
3,940
msm said:
Larsskv said:
msm said:
Yep and seeing how a new 5D3 actually sells for 3x the cost of a new A7 here in Norway I can't really see you building a very strong case here for your claim that Canon holds second hand value better. :p

Thank you for pointing this out. The release price of the Sony A7 was NOK 13500 in late 2013. At about the same time, the 5D3 was offered at NOK 19995 at Elkjop, here in Norway.

Today, you can buy a used A7 for NOK 6000, and the 5DIII goes for NOK 15000. Point taken?

I do not care about about second hand prices and don't really want to discuss it

Ahhh, so when the actual number do indeed show he had a case, you 'do not care about' it and 'don't really want to discuss it.'

::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
 

Larsskv

EOS R
Jun 12, 2015
847
294
MickDK said:
Larsskv said:
Today, you can buy a used A7 for NOK 6000, and the 5DIII goes for NOK 15000. Point taken?
Here in Denmark things are somewhat different:

Used A7: 5700 DKK (original price in 2013 was 13500 DKK, new price today 9000 DKK)

Used 5D3: 9000 DKK (original price in 2012 was 25000 DKK, new price today 21000 DKK)

Not quite representative prices on the 5DIII in Denmark, now is it? I searched and found on a danish site a used 5DIII with estimated 75000-125000 shutter actuations on it, with two problematic buttons, costing 9000DKK. On the same site I found a used 5DIII at 17500DKK and a 5DIII with 15000 shutter actuations, a battery grip and 4 batteries, at 16500DKK.

It isn't a problem finding higher used demands than 15000NOK for the 5DIII in Norway, but I am trying to be accurate, because an argument looses it's power if the facts it is based upon proves to be incorrect. (Or so I thought untill I payed attention to a man who's-name-shall-not-be-mentioned, who is running for president.)
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
CR Pro
Jul 21, 2010
25,598
3,940
quod said:
neuroanatomist said:
dilbert said:
Fools and their money are easily parted.

So, you're destitute?
He was referring to clowns like you.

Ahhh, defending dilbert – who claims that Canon broadcast field lenses are cameras and that the 1D C isn't a dSLR – as not foolish. Way to jump into his pail of crap with both feet!
 

msm

EOS RP
Jun 8, 2013
309
1
neuroanatomist said:
msm said:
Larsskv said:
msm said:
Yep and seeing how a new 5D3 actually sells for 3x the cost of a new A7 here in Norway I can't really see you building a very strong case here for your claim that Canon holds second hand value better. :p

Thank you for pointing this out. The release price of the Sony A7 was NOK 13500 in late 2013. At about the same time, the 5D3 was offered at NOK 19995 at Elkjop, here in Norway.

Today, you can buy a used A7 for NOK 6000, and the 5DIII goes for NOK 15000. Point taken?

I do not care about about second hand prices and don't really want to discuss it

Ahhh, so when the actual number do indeed show he had a case, you 'do not care about' it and 'don't really want to discuss it.'

::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

Oh, did he have a case? Lets look at the prices. He cherry picked the highest price of the A7 and the lowest price of the 5D3 to try to make his case and you swallowed it "hook line and sinker" to use your words:

http://www.prisguide.no/produkt/canon-eos-5d-mark-iii-156065#anchor-price-follow
http://www.prisguide.no/produkt/sony-alpha-a7-195823#anchor-price-follow

From these graphs it can be easily seen that over time:

The cheapest prices they sold for were: 9k A7, 20k 5D3
The highest prices they sold for were: 13.5k A7, 28k 5D3
The average prices they sold for were: ~24k 5DIII vs ~11k A7.

So the 5D 3 has generally been more than twice as expensive so sorry but he does not present a very strong case. And neither do you. As usual.
 

Apop

EOS 90D
Jan 26, 2013
165
0
msm said:
neuroanatomist said:
msm said:
Larsskv said:
msm said:
Yep and seeing how a new 5D3 actually sells for 3x the cost of a new A7 here in Norway I can't really see you building a very strong case here for your claim that Canon holds second hand value better. :p

Thank you for pointing this out. The release price of the Sony A7 was NOK 13500 in late 2013. At about the same time, the 5D3 was offered at NOK 19995 at Elkjop, here in Norway.

Today, you can buy a used A7 for NOK 6000, and the 5DIII goes for NOK 15000. Point taken?

I do not care about about second hand prices and don't really want to discuss it

Ahhh, so when the actual number do indeed show he had a case, you 'do not care about' it and 'don't really want to discuss it.'

::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

Oh, did he have a case? Lets look at the prices. He cherry picked the highest price of the A7 and the lowest price of the 5D3 to try to make his case and you swallowed it "hook line and sinker" to use your words:

http://www.prisguide.no/produkt/canon-eos-5d-mark-iii-156065#anchor-price-follow
http://www.prisguide.no/produkt/sony-alpha-a7-195823#anchor-price-follow

From these graphs it can be easily seen that over time:

The cheapest prices they sold for were: 9k A7, 20k 5D3
The highest prices they sold for were: 13.5k A7, 28k 5D3
The average prices they sold for were: ~24k 5DIII vs ~11k A7.

So the 5D 3 has generally been more than twice as expensive so sorry but he does not present a very strong case. And neither do you. As usual.

He did get a lot of practise not presenting strong cases, spending well over 1500 hours in this forum! ( likely closer to 2000/3000 hours, my 'best estimate' is 2468 hours!), I think he just ran out of patience with all us inferior people lately ;) lol
Due to this his comments/contributions to 'meaningful' discussions seem to have degraded to just insulting people , his avatar should be more like
simpbrain.jpg


Over here a used 5d3 is also around twice the price of an used a7 , (New the 5d3 is 1.75 x the price of the a7II, and 2,86 times the price of the a7!).

A7 = 979
A7R = 1529
A7II = 1629
A7RII= 3499
5d3 = 2799
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
CR Pro
Jul 21, 2010
25,598
3,940
msm said:
neuroanatomist said:
msm said:
Larsskv said:
msm said:
Yep and seeing how a new 5D3 actually sells for 3x the cost of a new A7 here in Norway I can't really see you building a very strong case here for your claim that Canon holds second hand value better. :p

Thank you for pointing this out. The release price of the Sony A7 was NOK 13500 in late 2013. At about the same time, the 5D3 was offered at NOK 19995 at Elkjop, here in Norway.

Today, you can buy a used A7 for NOK 6000, and the 5DIII goes for NOK 15000. Point taken?

I do not care about about second hand prices and don't really want to discuss it

Ahhh, so when the actual number do indeed show he had a case, you 'do not care about' it and 'don't really want to discuss it.'

::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

Oh, did he have a case? Lets look at the prices. He cherry picked the highest price of the A7 and the lowest price of the 5D3 to try to make his case and you swallowed it "hook line and sinker" to use your words:

http://www.prisguide.no/produkt/canon-eos-5d-mark-iii-156065#anchor-price-follow
http://www.prisguide.no/produkt/sony-alpha-a7-195823#anchor-price-follow

From these graphs it can be easily seen that over time:

The cheapest prices they sold for were: 9k A7, 20k 5D3
The highest prices they sold for were: 13.5k A7, 28k 5D3
The average prices they sold for were: ~24k 5DIII vs ~11k A7.

So the 5D 3 has generally been more than twice as expensive so sorry but he does not present a very strong case. And neither do you. As usual.

So in a much larger market than Norway, the 5DIII has held value a bit better.

EDIT: interesting, my numbers disappeared. In the US, the a7 launched at $1700, current list is 35% lower and average dealer used prices are $850, a 50% drop from launch. The 5DIII launched at $3500, current list is 29% lower, average dealer used is $1950, a 44% drop from launch.
 

Larsskv

EOS R
Jun 12, 2015
847
294
msm said:
neuroanatomist said:
msm said:
Larsskv said:
msm said:
Yep and seeing how a new 5D3 actually sells for 3x the cost of a new A7 here in Norway I can't really see you building a very strong case here for your claim that Canon holds second hand value better. :p

Thank you for pointing this out. The release price of the Sony A7 was NOK 13500 in late 2013. At about the same time, the 5D3 was offered at NOK 19995 at Elkjop, here in Norway.

Today, you can buy a used A7 for NOK 6000, and the 5DIII goes for NOK 15000. Point taken?

I do not care about about second hand prices and don't really want to discuss it

Ahhh, so when the actual number do indeed show he had a case, you 'do not care about' it and 'don't really want to discuss it.'

::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

Oh, did he have a case? Lets look at the prices. He cherry picked the highest price of the A7 and the lowest price of the 5D3 to try to make his case and you swallowed it "hook line and sinker" to use your words:

http://www.prisguide.no/produkt/canon-eos-5d-mark-iii-156065#anchor-price-follow
http://www.prisguide.no/produkt/sony-alpha-a7-195823#anchor-price-follow

From these graphs it can be easily seen that over time:

The cheapest prices they sold for were: 9k A7, 20k 5D3
The highest prices they sold for were: 13.5k A7, 28k 5D3
The average prices they sold for were: ~24k 5DIII vs ~11k A7.

So the 5D 3 has generally been more than twice as expensive so sorry but he does not present a very strong case. And neither do you. As usual.

If you dont want to compare prices for the same period, and the 5DIII price I gave was from the time of the release of the A7, you have to take the time factor into consideration.

According to your links, the 5DIII was NOK 25000 a short time after release, 1. july 2012. The A7 was 13500 a short time after release, 1. january 2014. I ignore the very first 16000 pricing of the A7, and the 27500 pricing of the 5DIII.

After 44 months, lets say the used price of the 5DIII is 15000, a degradation of 10 000. That equals approximately 9% depreciation a year.

After 28 months, a used A7 is worth 7000 less than when purchased. That equals 22 % depreciation a year. See the difference?
 

djack41

EOS RP
Jul 12, 2014
270
230
Very informative post. I buy the camera "system". When it comes to lens options and customer service, Sony falls far short of Canon. Also, Sony lenses are more expensive.
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
CR Pro
Jul 21, 2010
25,598
3,940
Apop said:
He did get a lot of practise not presenting strong cases

After a quick perusal of your 'contributions' here (I use the term loosely), I can't find an example of when you actually helped another member, answered a technical question, etc. Plenty of requests from you for advice and help from others, though.

Since you're fond of pictures...

lead_960.jpg
 

3kramd5

EOS R6
Mar 2, 2012
3,084
405
neuroanatomist said:
So in a much larger market than Norway, the 5DIII has held value a bit better.

Meaning if you go buy a 5D3 in Norway, you're going to pay more for that previous generation tech than if you go buy the A7.

Personally, I'd rather have access to the newer tech sooner, meaning I can opt to pay full bore for new or pay less for old, rather than have to wait on an artificial (i.e. not tied to development and production capacities) timescale giving me the option to either pay more for old tech or wait longer for new.
 

scyrene

EOS R6
Dec 4, 2013
2,882
1,029
UK
www.flickr.com
dilbert said:
A used camera that is 2 years old is a very old piece of technology. Would you pay top dollar for a 2 year old computer? It still runs Windows, it still lets you surf the web, etc.

Rinse and repeat with cars, TV, etc. To me, a 5 year old digital HD TV is something that I give away, not sell.

Not a terribly good analogy with computers. Cars are better. After all, a working camera still takes pictures - and especially in the case of DSLRs, really good ones even after 5-10 years. A car can still take you from A to B. A computer tends to have ever greater demands with each passing year, as software is regularly being refreshed.

As for giving away an old tv... Well, you're not alone in that, but it's a bit odd given that 5yo HD tv is going to allow you to watch programmes just as well as a newer one would (not counting leaps in tech like SD>HD>3D/4K).

Resale on older cameras is a good way for beginners to get into the hobby. I started with an old secondhand 300D, which despite its age produced much better image quality than I'd have got spending the same money on a more modern compact or bridge camera. I'm sure someone upgrading from, say, a 40D would be thrilled to own my 5D3 when I sell it later this year.

Later you say that a 2yo DSLR is as obsolete as a 2yo mobile phone, which is patently ridiculous.
 

3kramd5

EOS R6
Mar 2, 2012
3,084
405
https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2016/04/sony-goes-world-class-the-24-70mm-f2-8-gm-mtf-and-variance-tests/


But wait, I thought the mount didn't support quality lenses!
 

d

EOS RP
Mar 8, 2015
417
0
3kramd5 said:
https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2016/04/sony-goes-world-class-the-24-70mm-f2-8-gm-mtf-and-variance-tests/


But wait, I thought the mount didn't support quality lenses!

I think in this instance it will be the lens that is supporting the mount...

d.
 

Mr1Dx

EOS M6 Mark II
Feb 6, 2015
51
0
3kramd5 said:
https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2016/04/sony-goes-world-class-the-24-70mm-f2-8-gm-mtf-and-variance-tests/


But wait, I thought the mount didn't support quality lenses!

Got my 24-70 GM today. First 100 shots look extremely good.
 

ritholtz

EOS RP
Mar 25, 2014
588
14
This article is everywhere. Sony GM lens are designed to resolve 100MP sensor in future. That is why it is bigger.
 

Apop

EOS 90D
Jan 26, 2013
165
0
neuroanatomist said:
Apop said:
He did get a lot of practise not presenting strong cases

After a quick perusal of your 'contributions' here (I use the term loosely), I can't find an example of when you actually helped another member, answered a technical question, etc. Plenty of requests from you for advice and help from others, though.

Since you're fond of pictures...

Thanks for the vivid explanation , So thats what's gotten into your brain and drained it ? :(, . Your brain should be able to redeem itself , I hope it's just temporary thing and that you'd regain some decency.
Such a shame to waste brainpower on 'meaningless' insults to people in an online camera forum.
Everyone should do whatever they want with their time , but don't you feel a bit silly when you calculate the time you have spent on these forums? ( Maybe study some philosophy , it can really change the way you look at things!)

Ever since, I have just been reading forums from time to time. ( I wasn't really active here before since I preferred forums with a bigger community) , at first your numerous insults to everyone not agreeing with you were kind of funny (malicious pleasure is a guilty pleasure , and yes (IMO)... a lot of the people you aim them at kinda deserve it ;) ) ,but then I felt a bit sad for you...( and i'd like to help you)

I thought I point it out since sometimes it's hard to see your own flaws , spending half of your comments insulting people ( or;failed attempt at a cunning remark aimed at people with a different perception (of reality), which translates to over 1000 hours insulting people on here:( ) doesn't seem so healthy or a good way spending time for an intellectual mind like yours :-\ . (seem<- ; because I don't want to make claims about what is good/bad way of spending your time)

Sure internet can be like a release valve/venting for frustration build up in real life , but I think there are limits. (A lot of) Your posts seem a bit narcissistic ,or just breath a lot of frustration (I won't claim to be able to diagnose anything but a certain pattern is obvious.)

if you have a similar attitude in real life as in these forums then that could have resulted into some social issues. (maybe thats why you have many hundreds/ thousands of hours to post here ?:p)

I really hope you are capable of some self reflection , maybe read some of your own posts (
the last 1000 or so), and treat them like they are someone else's posts (how do you perceive them then?).
For yourself and the people around you I hope you'd be able to make a (small) change,

If your online attitude/behaviour is just a replacement for how you used to be in real life ,then I think thats a good thing for those surrounding you and people here need to adjust to you (Ignoring goes a long way)

This is all the help my time allows ,
I hope your perception of reality is changed for the better,
Best of luck