Word for Word Email
I have witnessed the testing of a new canon video DSLR here in Europe.
To keep it short: the prototype is far from being close to production. There are issues with moire (due to line skipping?). The chip itself is sealed, but the image results look very similar to a 7d. Its also the same type of moire (!) as with the 7d. Canon obviously is aware of that problem and wants to test another chip later this year (newly developed?). The body looks pretty similar to a XL 2 (with EF Mount) but maybe thats for camouflage reasons.
According to a statement from a Canon rep Canon wants to “achieve Red one 2K Quality for roughly half the price of a ready-to-use Red one” (clearly more expensive than a Red Scarlet). No AF. For now recording has been done via HDMI to a nanoflash recorder from convergent design since the new Canon codec (4:2:2) has not yet been implemented into this prototype.
CR’s Take
I am not a video guy, that’s why I just posted the email. I am learning pretty rapidly though.
cr
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first
Indeed Canon is interested to compete with RED.
We got reports about that in mid 2009.
Canon is working in RAW and less compressed video output since many months ago, even for DSLRs.
yawn… how about a fast, FF camera that I don’t need a mortgage to buy? and maybe some cheaper/lighter super tele models. Seems like canon is focusing on video and not so much on stills anymore… ugh….used to shoot Nikon in the film days… don’t want to but it might be time to go back
nice…
If such a beast did exist, it would have to be priced to competitive with the Scarlet, not the Red One. There is noting in this rumor that is novel or original; just a rehash of year old wishful thinking.
super tele is not that easy to build without compromising on optics quality, so nope. You wont see any cheaper or lighter super teles anytime soon. Now regarding the FF sensors, I think the cost to produce em is the reason why FF cameras is not cheap.
second
That pretty much sums up a typical 5DII team post.
Sounds totally bogus.
Moire on the 7D is a problem originated from using a sensor that contains too many pixels for the output, and therefore, has to skip lines of pixels to reduce the amount of data ultimately resulting moire in the output. If they’re making a pro camcorder with a sensor that’s meant for video, moire would not even be an issue. (it won’t disappear completely in all situations but it will be so much less of a problem it won’t be a factor)
The way I see it, a real simple and easy way to resolve moire is to just use a low pixel count sensor with the right kind of OLPF. 2.6-6MP would do the trick. 6MP is basically what 3K is (RED is 4.5K, 1080p is about 1.9K) and 2.6MP is just about what 1080P with the difference between 16:9 and 3:2 aspect ratio added back in. If they really wanted to do an awesome, large sensor pro-camcorder, just take a 3MP APS-C sensor, put it in a body that’s got a large enough buffer for decent recording time and voila. Assuming sensor heat isn’t an issue, the 7D can already process enough information to do 6MP stills 24 times a second, or basically 3K in 24P. (18MP x 8 = 144MP/second. 6MP x 24 = 144MP/second)
Mind you, I want them to come out with this dream camera, and they eventually might, but I’m thinking that this particular rumor is bunk.
Canon has already stolen much of Scarlet’s thunder with their inexpensive 1080p DSLR offerings. As proof I would cite the fact that Red was forced to up Scarlet’s specs (and price) after Canon’s DSLRs hit the market and started sucking up the money burning holes in the pockets of budding filmmakers yearning for something better than MiniDV. Red’s entry-level Scarlet with the fixed lens just didn’t offer enough to justify the price difference (which had been at $3,700ish), so it got a spec and price hike that have put it out of the reach of many at the micro-budget level, not to mention the soccer dads. True, Canon’s DSLRs can’t do RAW, but the H.264 codec seems pretty good for most applications, including some professional uses. That said, I won’t be upgrading my 7D until Canon has a DSLR that can do RAW.
Perhaps more important than RAW, however, is full-time autofocus that can match what even entry-level camcorders offer. That’s the real Achilles’ Heel of video DSLRs at this point, not the lack of RAW.
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Please: Use your own nickname, not those used by other people.
so that mean that we are not even close to get ride of the moiré problem on upcoming dslrs … I don’t understant why they don’t use the kodak chip for this camera ??? Kodak realeased very good S16 chip last year that allow 2k. That’s the chip onborad the SI-2K, the camera used for “slumdog milionary”. Using this chip and raw recording will already be a step forward …
All very interesting.
I thank canon for pushing that area. the others will have better video products, but someone needs to start the change.
that is competition. so canon will again be the rabbit.
+1
Sony A850 looking sorta cute
Interchangeable Lenses?
how are they gonne compete with red quality when they want to go down the 4:2:2 route ? i mean, those camera’s already exist by heaps, it’s called broadcast.
try going 4:4:4 with at least 12 bit range for “half of the price of a Red” and this thing might get interesting …
BS. This doesn’t make any sense.
Recording format is strange, more akin to something the fan community has already been doing rather than the next step by Canon’s internal engineers. Why would they bother creating a prototype before the rumours 4:2:2 recording format was even ready? The purpose of a prototype is to test the key parts, and that includes… um… THE CODEC!!
As for the issues with moire, it beats me why Canon would go to the effort of producing a professional video camera after all this time with the same line skipping image sensor like the 7D, and then go ‘oh no, it has moire!’ and swap out the chip!!!
CR I think you can do better than to run stories like this.
Ha!!
lol !!!
+1
: )
yeah use your own!!!
third!
This is the dumbest rumor ever posted.
The red one’s market is so small, canon will just look past it. Their main target is the bigger ENG market not some fanboys who want interchangeable aps-c camera.
And the last time Canon used a Kodak chip was?
+1
ENG is a big market.
I don’t hold much hope for this rumour either. They might bring out a 2/3″ ENG camera (with dedicated lenses)…. but I think if they want to pursue the indie/cinema market, they will just keep improving their DSLR range.
Hey don’t hammer the CR guy… This is a rumors site, if he didn’t post this you would be looking at a blank screen. Not so fun
I don’t think so. The ENG market is dominated by Sony and Panasonic for some good reasons. Its not only the camcorders but the whole line up of postpro facilities and service programmes which leads always back to these major players. Canon would have to invest enourmous sums to keep up with them and develop all that background stuff. The indy-filmmarket is quite more interesting for Canon. With a fullframe Camcorder, they will sell additional devices to Broadcasters aswell as to the whole indy film scene. Probably 50000 – 100000 sold units worldwide in this range (if compared with Sony EX3). This would be a nice add on to their cashflow. I wonder if they would let go…
I think this rumors could make sense, if Canon tries to avoid the development of a complete new CMOS. The indy market isn’t that big and developing a new sensor is costly. On the other hand the rumors clearly says that canon will test another (new?) chip later this year. Maybe they are testing the handling for now, the concept and everything to go pro with a future camcorder (including a new chip). Sounds like early testing stage, nothing more.
Yeah, this rumor is bunk. Too many inconsistencies. In the first line the email says it’s a video DSLR then later it says the body is similar to an XL 2.
You be a jive monkey
my name be 5D Mark ii TEAM
yo name be 5D Mark II TEAM
can’t yo see day bee different ?
Yo g
since kodak developed dat dare Bayer sensor, yo could say dat Canon haz been usin der design foe years.
As I understand it the “jello” you see when moving a canon sensor in video mode is from the refresh rate of the sensor being too slow.
If canon can figure out how to get their chip to 3k, no jello, and raw…they might be able to compete with the red scarlet. If they can offer full frame and good audio, all under $4,000 they’d beat the scarlet in most cases.
Red is the rabbit to chase currently. And it’s a lean mean animal…
well I think it’s much cheaper to use a sensor design you have, and do the rest in postprocessing, i.e. downsampling instead of line skipping etc. i guess that is what they are working on.
+ getting 3K off the sensor with competitive framerates i.e. up to 120 seems quite a feat. but if its only a matter of sticking 4 digicV in there, and cooling them, it might be actually pretty cheap.
in any case i would predict, that if canon seriously wants to get in this market, then RED will have a very rough time ahead.
its like apple vs. microsoft 10 years ago ;-) i love it.
p.s. i would love it if canon made an super35 or apsc sensor video camera for under 3000. that would rock big time.
that’s what the red team is singing all day long since the 5D came out. i think it is not relevant for the sales.
You be Naija?
The 5D/7D are not video cameras; anyone trying to make a film with them knows you need to be adaptable and make compromises, all the new support rigs you see are evidence of the problem. Filmmakers/videographers want to make movies, not kludge together solutions to the problems of the form factor (BTW, I LOVE my 7D). Red addresses the need for a robust camera *form factor* for FILM-makers, not photographers. A VDLSR is just a still camera…that can shoot nice movies. Canons XL series is a video camera…but not a still camera–or an ENG camera for that matter–which is not a market canon sells cameras to.
I think canon should make XL body w/ EOS mount and APS-C sensor. Lower MPixels is fine *if* it has better noise/sensitivity in low light; *and* captures progressive HD at higher frame rates.
All it really needs for lenses are two L series full-time manual AF/IS zooms, one wide & one long (just like they have now for XL) optimized for video production (rackable focus & zoom w/silky feel). With an EOS mount there is no problem using primes. Someone will make a PL mount adapter for it (I believe there already is a PL to EOS mount now).
Indie film and event videographers don’t want ENG cameras; they like the XL. This is the market Canon must address. This is the market Red targets.
An XL form-factor camera won’t cannibalize canon DSLR sales because it targets different users, just like a DSLR doesn’t cannibalize XL sales, and Canon is in a great position to address this market because is doesn’t make ENG cameras, only lenses. It’s video cameras are “consumer” models. An XL won’t cannibalize consumer HD cameras because mom & dad won’t buy such an expensive behemoth.
It is a natural direction to move in.
What exactly is this “Red One” ?
Full frame is not really an issue. The APS-C sensor is very close to the size of 35mm film (which many photographers don’t realize is smaller than a FF still camera’s sensor). 3K is not much of an issue either. Most films shot on DSLRs today will never see the light of day on a projector that can do 3K.
The major features Canon needs to focus on are quick full-time autofocus, RAW and skew (“jello”). If they can master those three at the same price point their cameras are at now, they’ll be the darling of low-budget indy filmmakers.
The Red One is a digital video camera that shoots RAW video and costs under $20k for the body. They are currently working on a much less expensive line of cameras called Scarlet with varying specs and price points, depending on the particular model.
http://www.red.com/
I don’t see any major problems with the DSLR form factor. A lot of the support rigs and things being sold for DSLRs are far from essential. You can do a lot with nothing more than a good tripod. Yeah, you need a rail system if you want to mount a matte box, follow-focus and monitor, but the Red cameras are no better. In fact, with the exception of the fixed-lens Scarlet, Red’s cameras are really not stand-alone products. Take a look at all the add-ons for the Red One:
http://www.red.com/store
Thank you for the reponse!
You are correct about the red and the associated accessories, it’s even more true of all cinema cameras. As for “far from essential…” it depends on the user. It’s form-factor makes it ideal for small, quick, low-budget and stealthy w/minimal crew. But larger productions require more features and options that dslrs cannot provide. I use a hoodman loupe w/ funky elastic straps (and don’t get me wrong–I am happy to have it) to frame and focus, but it. is. a. pain. Another issue is lenses with mechanical (vs. electronic) focus rings. I know this isn’t really a form factor issue but it will be for a more “cinema-ish” camera because of how those cameras are used, and for now there are only a few options. Canon offered such a lens for the XL and I think it made some people very happy, but I think this is emblematic of the conflicting needs of the two different kinds of users.
Knowing I can grab some quick video while wearing my “sports shooter” hat is comforting, but lack of AF and multi-speed zoom makes it impractical for covering any kind of event. Conversely, knowing I can grab some hi-res stills with a FF or APS-C sized “video” camera is really convenient, but I’m sure I won’t be shooting more than a couple at a time. If I can’t afford both cameras, I will go with cheaper and make it work. But if I have a choice, I think the XL form-factor is better for making movies or covering events.
ummm,im laughing now! I knew this was coming, and some people who do nothing but shoot uncle bob’s “Home Videos” made fun of me. You guys owe me an apology and you owe yourself to learn more respect towards others. Go CANON, but seriously if you want most of the market or all of it. You gotta do 4:4:4 at 2K (or more), manual controls, RAW recording and variable frame rates for a competitive price.
I think you would make many other companies poop their pants.
WOW!!!!! that was just what i had to know, helpfull and to the point, please keep up the brilliant work and i will be back for more soon!
Adding this article to my bookmarks.