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Some more info and corrections (From the source)
- 120hz means 120 full frames. The camera will only be specced for 60fps. The chip may be used in the future for a higher end camera.
- The CMOS sensor is an entirely new design based on the previous work on APS-C it refreshes much faster and can be deemed a much improved sensor for video applications. Hence it will have very low rolling shutter effect.
- As far as dSLR's. People in charge think that 30fps on 720p and 1080p is very good and will not improve it on this generation. PAL 25p is too close to 24p and is not contemplated as an option for now.
- The upcoming replacement for the 50D will have 1080p 30 for sure and 720p 30 also. I have no info on any Mic port for this product yet.
- The 5D II might get 720p 30 as a firmware update since the only reason it was //not included is because of rushed development of the video spec. Might never come but it's possible.
- The source says don't take that comments about dSLR video modes as absolute fact. That stuff is pretty guarded.
So there you have it.
cr
If Canon doesn’t add manual controls to its DSLR’s, I may make a small business modifying other lens brands to work with them for manual sontrol of aperture. I have a few manual Nikkor lenses around, I can add the adapters, test them out, and sell them as a unit.
Well, first off, 2010 is way too far away. If Canon doesn’t spring this by NAB, the game is lost before it begins.
Interesting information. Lot’s of great information on your site. I have a lot of reading to do. Thank you so much for such an informational blog.
David Cooper
120Hz is the temporal frame of 3D Full HD. with 1080p 50/60 for each eye. is this CMOS going into mass productioin for other devices then?
” The 5D II might get 720p 30 as a firmware update since the only reason it was //not included is because of rushed development of the video spec. Might never come but it’s possible.”
So if this is whole true, that is also confirming the EOS 5D Mark II was RUSHED.
And that could also encourage firmware updates for that camera.
Not to mention if Nikon releases a DSLR with full HD and full (or at least some) Manual control.
It is clear that the chances for a firmware update for 5D Mark II are high, and it will probably give (at least some) manual control in video mode.
Why? Because many reasons. Some of them:
– COMPETITION coming soon and will keep coming STRONG, and if Nikon offers manual control and Canon doesn’t implement it, many users could switch to Nikon.
That will obviously impact, even MUCH stronger, to new customers too who might choose Nikon without hesitation
– Lack of manual aperture setting forces many customers to USE/BUY Nikon Lenses instead of Canon ones
– HUGE demand and claims for manual control, worldwide. And that also counts. Despite the opinion of some people, manufacturers need customer satisfaction and keep their loyalty as customers, it’s a matter of business too.
Before someone mention it: to get “Engadget Digital Camera of the year award” does not necessarily mean this camera will just keep standing still without need to be improved and Canon getting rest.
There are enough reasons to implement manual control, and also some other improvements via Firmware Update to the 5D Mark II
— KEEP REQUESTING, the MORE customers/people doing it, the MORE chances.
Competition will help us a lot too.
Some (of many) ways to express your Request are:
. Petition to Canon Inc.:
www . petitiononline . com/5dmark2/petition.html
. Placing your Suggestion/Request through Canon Support or Representative:
Canon USA email Support for 5D Mark II:
http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelDetailAct&fcategoryid=139&modelid=17662
List of European PRO Representatives can be found here:
http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/contact_us/representatives.do
BTW: “exotic frame rates” in the original post is a ridiculous comment because the requested frame rates have nothing of exotic, they are completely standards instead.
What can I say? FYVM Canon if the 25fps is skipped for intenional crippling purposes.
What on earth is “PAL 25p is too close to 24p” supposed to mean?
It simply means you should never buy a newly release product from Canon before early adopters have reported every bug and crippled features and you know what to expect.
Have signed up for the Petition to fix the 5D2 on http://www.5dfix.com/
Canon could break with tradition and offer a firmware update for the 5DII to add extra video features. It would not impact negatively on DSLR sales, as it would not cannibalise the sales of any higher-end DSLR in their range. It would also save on development costs, as it would give the 5DII a longer shelf life.
However, Canon are also in the video camera business and the 5DII is likely to eat into the sales of their high-end video cameras. Judging from the supply problems, the 5DII is in much higher demand than Canon thought it would be, even with its “crippled” video features. It would be interesting to know how the sales of their professional video cameras are holding up. Perhaps they will position their video DSLRs as “bridge cameras” for a new range of higher-end video cameras, a new range that is geared more towards film-making. They’ll get people hooked on the image quality with the 5DII, but then sell them a $10,000 APS-C or 35mm video camera with specialist video lenses (an “EF-V” mount that can also accept “EF” lenses), a camera that is a much more versatile and usable video tool. If they have that in mind, then it is highly unlikely that they will add 24p or 25p frame rates, full manual control, better autofocus, stereo sound (onboard), or any other features that would make a far more expensive camera far less attractive.
There is some sense in this for the consumer too: video cameras just have too many features that are too far from what DSLRs need or have available. Motorised zoom lenses do not exist in the EOS line and would be of little use to a stills photographer (we’d need extra buttons, too). Many of the current EF lenses have noisy autofocus motors that would interfere with sound capture (imagine shooting video and sound with an EF 35mm f/2, if you’ve tried one). Image stabilisation is pretty noisy on some lenses, too. The physical form of a DSLR is not very ergonomic when used for video capture (articulating screens would be a must and some place to mount a microphone and a light). The storage options for a DSLR would need to be expanded to include hard disks or much larger solid-state storage. You could tether a DSLR to a laptop, or external drive accessories could be added, but then they have reached a point where it makes sense to develop a whole new camera system and sell it for a whole lot more money. The only thing they might have in common is support for the EF lens line for users who are content to zoom and focus them manually before shooting to keep things smooth and quiet.
It may also be the case that a sensor that can provide the high frame rates and cooler operation required for video cannot produce the image quality that we are used to for stills. This is purely speculation, but what if the technologies required for good video and those required for good stills do not fall along the same development path? Perhaps a high frame rate leads to more noise and cooler operation leads to less dynamic range.
I think Canon have stumbled upon a new market for themselves and are not going to make any sudden rash decisions, like offering 25fps for PAL if that might make a possible new $10,000 24fps video camera using EF lenses and new “EF-V” lenses less compelling.
Now, I must get out of my armchair; I think someone’s been messing with my anti-paranoia pills again.
Sorry but if this is a NTSC specific item (well technically speaking it isn’t even NTSC broadcast compatible) then why on earth did they even release it in PAL land. 25fps is a must do for Cano, over 70 percent of the world uses it http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0d/PAL-NTSC-SECAM.svg/800px-PAL-NTSC-SECAM.svg.png
So write to your local Canon office and let them hear your voice. Manual control would be splendid but 25fps and a PAL friendly shutter speed IS A MUST on their next firmware upgrade!
Oh how I wish that canon would give me more control of video with a firmware update. Otherwise I will have to buy a manual apertaure lens I guess.
I know. That is the same case of thousands of people around the world.
That’s why I posted the above information.
Canon can do it.
Through all this 5D video drama, it seems that Canon would rather make incremental updates in video capabilities rather than give us a holy grail video dSLR right out of the gate. That would help maximize their profit over the long run, which, while a good business strategy for the most part, runs the risk of pissing off loyal consumers as we’ve seen. Other manufacturers without a video division would have nothing to lose.
It’s clear the 5DMKII represents a turning point in the evolution of cameras. What’s not clear how the worlds of video and photography will (or should) be merged to satisfy both groups. As video cameras need to have many more controls and features than the 5D currently has, I see no reason why the 5D shouldn’t get manual control and 24/25p. Most professional video folks would still need pro video cameras.
Ted wrote “Canon are also in the video camera business and the 5DII is likely to eat into the sales of their high-end video cameras”
This makes no sense to me. Canon makes way more sales off their DSLR line than their camcorder line, especially when you factor in all the EOS lenses and accesories. XLH1 (one of the few camocrders featuring interchangeable lenes) buyers along with the select models of ENG Panny and JVC buyers are a very slim market, and because of the audio limitations (no XLR inputs will likely ever make it into a DSLR) I doubt DSLR’s will ever replace a true ENG camcorder or seriously cut into sales of it.
DSLR HD video is a vast untapped unique market that is the next feature war and will take a back seat to the megapixel battle that is fast becoming mute. This will drive lens and accesory sales that could never happen in the camcorder market.
Sorry, meant to write the DSLR megapixel war will take a back seat to the new HD video war.
People flocking to Nikon over manual video settings? Serious? I thought we were photographers? Many all those indie filmmakers yeah but photographer? I don’t think so… I mean how many well done videos have you see DSLR’s do in general that would be sold to clients (again by PHOTOGRAPHERS) ?
Other than Laforet and a few wedding photogs I would say almost none. And even wedding photogs need a pretty decent sized business going to afford hiring a video guy and buying all the equipment needed.
I think Canon will for sure enable manual aperture. It doesn’t make sense for them to let their users buy nikon glass. Other than that (I do understand the PAL arguement), how many of you photographers actually understand what 24p is?
PAL is 720 x 576 pixels 25 fps
NTSC is 720 x 480 pixels 29.97 fps
There is PAL HD or NTSC HD.
25p refers to the frame rate, 25 progressive frames per second, not the pixels dimensions, and yes, it was originally used for the PAL Broadcast system. NTSC Broadcast used 29.97 frame rate.
With HD (720p, 1080p, 1080i) there is no more PAL or NTSC, the only issues are interlaced vs. progressive and what framerate, bitrate, and compression are used.
Tradional 35mm movie film is 24 fps, so in the effort to make video look as film-like as possible, it has become an imporant selling point for manufacturers and the holy grail for indie film makers. 24p vs. 25p is only really important if your outputting to 35mm film, say for a film festival entry. Otherwise, show me someone who can spot 25p over a 24p on playback? You couldn’t tell them apart, and it’s close enough to easily convert between.
For web video, you can pick whatever framerate tickles you pink. DVD will always be either PAL 25 or NTSC 29.97, so if your final product is PAL DVD, then ok, 25p might help a bit. Blu-Ray does support 24p.
I will say the 1080p 20 fps on the new 500D is a joke and is unusable for anything beyond jerky playback, and I’m rather shocked Canon released it for the sole purpose of trying to trick the public with a 100% marketing gimmick so they could claim 1080p bragging rights.
Sorry, typing so fast my grammer is going to hell, I meant to write THERE IS NO PAL HD OR NTSC HD.
Imaging is imaging, and the age of photography being only about paper prints is over. Digital imaging is still relatively new, but the still/motion worlds are merging on the fast track. Companies have to look for new markets and to what the youtube generation is going to want because they will not have the same perception of photography and video as those of us who have grown up sticking our hands in fixer and stopbath. I started as a photographer, I then added video to my services, and now I see it all as delivering digital imaging, either still or motion, with much of my work ending up on the web in Flash, gif, jpg, wmv etc. and not paper or anything resembling what still photography started out being.
Motion video is just a series of stills, and I will love the day I’m shooting 21 mp at 120 fps, and I can grab the perfect still, beautiful slow motion, and full motion all at the same time.
So this means the battle is lost. So sad really… it could’ve been a contender
Haha. So bitter. So true. Luvz it.
I totally agree with you Ted. But whatever you said, they are already under development, by a company called RED. Once they release their Scarlet and Epic, then canon and sony would have tough time selling their “so-called” pro video camcorders for unrealistic prices.
Love to see these guys stirring the pot!!
Man i want 24p cine mode on a canon dslr that would be the ultimate indie movie makers dream
In fact, I am simply ecstatic in front of Canon’s “we offered you a FF body and now you have it so keep it and don’t start complaining about crippled features full dot” attitude.
I mean, when I win made-in-china plastic camera in a amusement park, I expected it to be somewhat broken-by-design. When my $300 P&S camera is crippled, I am already quite angree. But here were are saying $3000… But, hey, it’s FF magic!!
but: almost everything ends up on DVD, so 25fps is an issue + you get flicker in 50Hz powergrid countries, which pretty much is the PAL part of the world.
What is annoying about this is that its perfectly clear, that Canon could put 25fps in the 5DII, but decides not to because of seperation with possible more expensive gear in the future.
I know about the RED cameras. I think that Canon may have been dismissing them as too much of a niche, which is what I was thinking when I wrote, “Canon have stumbled upon a new market for themselves”; it is not a new market, just a new one for Canon.
With the 5DII, Canon may have realised that RED are on to something bigger than they thought. They’ve probably been up to their proverbials in market research and prototypes since the 5DII video feature got hyped beyond all expectations. In the meantime, they are not going to damage a potential new market by jumping the gun and making the 5DII too good with a big firmware upgrade.
Canon have the might to compete easily with RED. They have the technology, the skills (they already make video cameras), the lens line up (with a few additions), the support and distribution channels, the retail presence, the lot. To Canon, it is just one more product; RED have to build the whole market from scratch.
That is kind of my point. RED did not really take the world by storm, so Canon did not take too much notice. They experimented with a hybrid camera that can do a little of what the RED can do and they were shocked by the huge demand there was for it (hence the supply problems). It helps that anyone buying a 5DII can at least say they are getting a great stills camera from a leading brand even if the video function doesn’t work out for them. A RED doesn’t come with the same insurance.
“I doubt DSLR’s will ever replace a true ENG camcorder or seriously cut into sales of it.”
I agree, but it is not ENG applications that I am referring to, it is digital filmmaking. Perhaps I was a little too vague in what I wrote, I meant eating into sales of a potential new market for digital filmmaking that is not satisfied by their current video cameras and for which the DSLR format is far from the ideal tool.
“DSLR HD video is a vast untapped unique market”
If you replace “DSLR” with “large sensor”, then I agree with you, though RED have tapped the market already. Only with the 5DII has Canon just realised how “vast” the market is.
You already indicated that a DSLR is not a good platform for shooting video, so why is it a good platform for HD video? I predict (and I’ll admit I’m just making this up in the spirit of a good conspiracy theory fitting for a rumours site) that Canon will take the best of both product lines: sensor technology and lenses from the EOS line, maybe with some new specialist lenses to fill some gaps specific to video applications, and video technology from their other line and give us something like one of the RED cameras, only better: a large sensor, EF mount, HD video camera–not a DSLR. Adding too many new features to the 5DII in a firmware upgrade might kill this opportunity. That would explain the somewhat cryptic remark, “PAL 25p is too close to 24p”.
Why do indie movie makers need a reflex mirror? Keep the image quality, keep the lenses, but give them a more suitable body to attach them to. They won’t care if it can’t do stills.
Sure, 5DII is a great still camera, but its ability of being an excellent video camera has been deliberately crippled by Canon. They simply disabled the code. If there is anyother technical reason, Chuck westfall would’ve come forward to explain it. I guess scenario will become serious once RED cameras are out in the market.Until then they won’t be taken seriously.I am 101% sure, canon already has a product development to compete the RED cameras. Lets see how they gonna compete as both companies have different ways of reacting to customers requirements and expectations. RED goes for modular design, whereas Canon wants to sell upgraded models with minor improvements year after year.
The “tradition” has been already broken.
Canon has released a firmware update ADDING new feature.
Despite it is for a P&S (although not a cheap P&S), they added a new feature via Firmware Update.
Here it is:
http://www.canonrumors.com/2009/03/powershot-sx1-is-firmware-update-200/
“Version 2.0.0.0 firmware newly incorporates a RAW image recording function.
You can download the version 2.0.0.0 firmware from next page and update the firmware of your PowerShot SX1 IS camera to add this RAW image recording function.”
http://web.canon.jp/imaging/dcp/firm-e/pssx1is/index.html
— So this is a bit of “history” for those who always said “Canon has no history adding functions in firmware updates” or all that kind of things.
We shouldn’t rely on history to do something.
But well, there it is the bit of history some people claimed there wasn’t.
So we can simply rest, or try to find the way to do something, if we are interested on improvements for 5D Mark II (that CAN really be done witouth “very big” efforts nor costs)
It’s up to everyone’s choice.
“improvements for 5D Mark II (that CAN really be done witouth “very big†efforts nor costs)”
I agree that it is just a matter of a firmware upgrade and something that cannot involve much extra effort. However, Canon probably have a broader view on the “costs” than just the time and resources that would be spent on that firmware update.
By way of analogy: How much does it cost to smash up your car with a sledge hammer? Sledge hammers are not very expensive, so it probably doesn’t cost much. Maybe you already own one.
Ted,
“You already indicated that a DSLR is not a good platform for shooting video, so why is it a good platform for HD video?”
I would say it *not yet* a great platform for shooting video because of the focusing and manual control issues. If you can work within the current limitations of the 5DmkII it does produce awesome HD video difficult to achieve on any camcorder.
The reason I think DSLR video is something that will become a usable and important feature is because the choices for interchangeable lens camcorders is very limited and very expensive. The reason for the high price of the XLH1 and others like it is simple economics; low vollume product means a high priced product. Because Canon can pump out thousands of DSLR bodies for every camcorder it makes they can offer create a line of HD video products that has never existed before and open the door film making to a much wider range of people at lower DSLR prices.
RED is onto something with it’s modular design. But even that system gets very expensive for low end commercial or event shooters.
Also, take a look at the new HF S10, the “camcorder” shoots great looking 8 MP stills! BLUR BLUR BLUR. The day of still and video cameras being totally separate product lines are already over.
Bill,
I’m not saying 25p should not be an option, just that every company has priorites to make, and there’s a lot to improve in the DSLR HD video realm that is much more important.
When I go to burn a DVD off the editing timeline I simply select the format for the DVD, NTSC or PAL, and when it renders the video into MPEG2 it is automatically converted to the appropriate framerate (29.97 NTSC or 25 PAL). You don’t see everyone screaming about there not being a 29.97 frame rate do you? No, because it is not a big issue.
If you shoot 24p, 60i, 50i, 30p, or 25p and burn a NTSC or PAL DVD it all looks the same in the highly compressed MPEG2 format anyway.
Besides, ALL the Canon camcorders record at 60i, and use software code to turn it into 24p, 30p or whatever. Unless you are outputting to 35mm film for a film festival which can get very tricky to get it done right it’s just not a big issue.
I’m not sure I agree that almost everything ends up on DVD anymore. A big part of my work goes to the web now.
Lenses. One system to invest in. Versatility. Lower cost options.
All they need to do to make the DSLR more video ergonomic is add a flip out rotating LCD screen and add a hand strap standard (instead of only with the vertical grip accessory).
RED is a great system, pushing the bounardies, and stiring the pot as you said, but it is also expensive, especially when you add in all the pieces you need. $6500 to $10,000 per lens! RED is a very high end system, and if you are needing 4K raw video it’s wonderful, but will they impact Canon at all with their SLR module? I seriously doubt it. They make the 1Ds MkIII look like a bargain. Canon will even throw in a free LCD with the camera for it’s 8K. hehe
RED has mounts for canon and nikon. so no need for RED lenses. If Canon builds a 4k camera, it will sure be more than $10,000 with the “canon-famous” crippling and planned obsolensence built in by their wonderful marketing dept. and add their “intelligent” market segmentation formula..!! I guess they might have planned these things for 2015..lol..but now they are forced to do it.
Love the competition, especially when it hits in the back of the corporate greed.
Certainly if one needs to shoot 4k raw video RED is wonderful, but add up all the things you need, the lowest price “brain” is a 3k for $2500 (on up to $53,000!), but then you need not just the Canon lens mount for $800 (which is still vaporware), but also the LCD monitor starting at $1700 on up to $3000, a handle to be hold it like an SLR (didnt see a price for it but as it includes a battery I’m sure its not cheap), $1000 for one battery and charger, and a recording module starting at $500 just to put a compact flash card for storage on up to $4500 for the REDram drive. Doesn’t look like there’s a built in mic??? So add that cost. Add $495 for 16gig RED CF card (which only gives you less than 10 minutes of recording time). That’s $6500, which for 3k video is awesome, if you need 3K video, and start adding up RED CF cards at $500 a pop cuz should you want to record more than 10 minutes.
Now we’re talking all that for raw 3k video, cool, but that not much in the still photo department. 5K is only 13.8 megapixels, not sure what 3K is, under 10MP??? A 5DmkII give you 21MP.
But this also creates a whole new spending need to handle the 3k raw video workflow. You’ll need to build a very powerful workstation with tons of fast storage and even then you will not be editing in real time without converting or downsampling it.
For those of us happy with good looking compressed HD video you can edit on a laptop a 5DmkII (once they get the focus/control issues up to par) you’re set back less than 3000 bucks.
I don’t shoot movies for Hollywood. I dont need or even want to deal with 3k or 4k raw video. I do corporate, small business, commercial, and events. The RED is cool, but give me a functioning 5DmkII type DSLR with working autofocus and manual control for under 3 grand and I’m happy.
Incremental updates only makes sense after a product is up to the basic tasks at hand. I think the real reason for the unfinished 5DmkII was to rush it out to compete with Nikon.
Take the 500D/Rebel for instance; the put 1080p 20fps on it, and completely useless feature unless you actually want to shoot jerky video. So why is there? The Panasonic GH1 fauxSLR just hit the market shooting 1080p 24fps WITH AUTOFOCUS and some very nice interchangable lenes. So Canon chose to try to steal some buyers of the GH1 by tricking them into thinking they could shoot 1080p on the Rebel even though the sensor is clearly not up to it.
Canon is already playing catchup to the now availble $1400 GH1 with a nice video friendly zoom lens package, not even the 5DmkII can shoot in autofocus yet. So I’m sure Canon is pulling out the stops to get caught up and this theory of Canon piece mealing restrictions of capability is not likely what is happening IMO.
Besides, the Panasonic GH1 is a far bigger competitor to Canon’s DSLR line than RED.
The people who need RED’s 4k video are a small niche market compared to those who are happy with nice 2k full HD, and unless you really need 4k raw video who is going to spend $6500 on a basic body that can only deliver 8 to 10MP stills?
For $1400 you can get the 12MP 1080p 24fps GH1 WITH a 14-140mm zoom (28-280mm equivalent) with functioning autofocus and OIS (optical image stabilization), and have several other lenses available including a nice wide-angle 7-14mm (14-28mm).
“Keep the lenses,” I wrote. It would still be an EOS system, but it would be another body in the line-up, one designed specifically for video. Drop the mirror, put in an EVF, articulating LCD (as you mention), a more ergonomic form for something that you no longer hold to your face all the time, mounts for lights and microphones and better audio inputs. Then it would become a proper tool for movie makers.
I hear ya Ted. You may like the Panasonic GH1 which has pretty much everything you described.
I’m just not all that thrilled with the ergonomic form of camcorders with the horizontal hand grip and there are advantages and disadvantages to the various sizes from shoulder mount down to palm size. With a few tweaks like they are doing on the GH1 which will have the articlulating LCD, stereo built it mics, and a hot shoe mic I’d be quite happy with the form of the DSLR and I would use the numerous brackets already designed for them including shoulder mounts.
As for a dedicated video camera with EOS lenses, they already have one in the XLH1 with the EOS adapter and some nice dedicated lenses as well. All they need to do is go full HD and tapeless and you have the ultimate camcorder. I’m sure it will shoot at least 8MP stills when they finaly update it.
Personally I want the design of the DSLR for outstanding still photography combined with good compressed full HD video to go along side of my camcoders. I want options and the more full HD tools I have integrated into my still equipment the better, so I’m thrilled with the crossover move happening.
Canon have just discovered, given the demand for the 5DII, that the XLH1 with an EF adaptor is not what movie makers want–the sensor is too small. It has about a 7x crop factor that makes even the size of the sensor in a compact stills camera seem generous. Imagine a similar camera, only with a native EF mount (probably enhanced for motorised “EF-V” zooms, but still EF compatible) and an APS-C or FF sensor. The sensor and the mount would qualify it as just another body in the “EOS” system, but a body that is very different from the DSLR bodies and designed for a different primary purpose (even it it could take great stills).
I don’t understand why people often make that kind of analogy with cars or anything like that that has nothing to do with a Firmware Update programming, that does NOT need an “entire recoding”, as some people say, but just a small part of it, and in some cases with some features like Bracketing, it would need very few coding that can be done in a Very short time…
I think the pace of development is quite amazing. It wasn’t long along ago there were no digital SLR’s or solid state storage to make all this possible. Clearly the XLH1 is already dated, it’s crappy old HDV tape after-all. But a couple of years ago it was an indie wet dream come true, lol.
I completely agree the ultimate replacement for the XLH1 would lose the EF adapter and to create an EF-V video line that would work on DSLR’s too.
And, I would also agree that RED presents Canon with some potential competition for the XLH1 replacement. But hard core movie makers will want the RED system as I don’t think Canon will put out a 3K, 4K, or 5K camera. They’ll stay in the compressed 2K market which is perfect for event shooters, news coverage, non-studio TV shooting, and Blu-ray/DVD/Web productions.
I don’t buy all the conspiracy theories about Canon crippling features to drag out incremental updates. These products are being rushed into production before they are fully ready. They did it with 5DmkII to keep up with Nikon and now the Rebel’s joke of a 1080p 20 fps just so they would not be completely outdone by Panasonic who much farther along the development curve for HD video with it’s GH1 line.
“XLH1 would lose the EF adapter and to create an EF-V video line that would work on DSLR’s too.”
I’ve mentioned motorised zoom a few times above as something that video seems to need. For stills, I much prefer the manual zoom rings on the EF lenses to the motorised zoom of a compact camera, but I understand that that would not be smooth enough for video. All I can think of for an EF-V mount is some extra bits (should they be necessary at all) to allow the camera to control zooming and, of course, an extra motor in the lens. Like full-time manual focus, there will probably be full-time manual zoom. On a DSLR body there are no controls for zooming, so, if EF-V is a range of lenses with is compatible with the EF mount (rather than an EF-V mount that can take EF lenses), DSLRs may need to get zoom controls like those on compact cameras.
“the Rebel’s joke of a 1080p 20 fps”
When I read that, I thought of Canon listening to users who were clamouring for something slower than 30fps and then proudly announcing 20fps as their solution and being so chuffed with themselves for responding to their users’ needs. “Down a bit…no…up a bit…no…down a bit…no…”.
They probably lifted the sensor out of the 50D and that was as fast as they could get the data off it without an expensive redesign. Such a redesign is probably in progress for the 60D, which I predict will be positioned as everything the 5DII is, just with an APS-C sensor and a higher frame rate, similar to the distinction between the 1D and 1Ds lines. In parallel, another sensor, probably APS-C is being designed to have a much faster frame rate to support video, but probably with some compromises on image quality.
Let me explain my analogy: the firmware update is the cheap sledge hammer, the valuable market for a whole new line of specialist EOS video cameras is the car. Just because a sledge hanner is cheap doesn’t mean that it is cheap to trash your car with it. You would have omitted a critical factor in your determination of the cost.
I *agreed* that a firmware update would not require much effort. However, what if spending a few bucks on releasing a firmware update costs them millions of bucks in lost sales on a whole new line of cameras? Cameras that would be much better for shooting vide than a 5DII could even if the 5DII had 24fps, or whatever else firmware can give it.
I’d like AF microadjustment on my 40D (I had to send it back to Canon *again* yesterday), I’d like video, I’d like proper zoom on playback so I can chimp and check the focus. These could all be provided by a free firmware update. However, I knew the camera had none of these features when I bought it and I knew that Canon were highly unlikely to provide them in any future firmware update. I got what I paid for and, much as I would appreciate some freebies, I cannot hold it against Canon if they do not give them to me.
Canon can take a firm line: you, the customer, knew what you were buying, you paid your money and you got what you paid for. Are you really *entitled* to get more than that? Did you make it a condition of your contract with Canon when you purchased their camera? Sure, it would be nice to receive a new feature for nothing, but what right have you to expect that? From Canon? With their track record?
Canon exist to serve their shareholders first and their customers second. It’s a fine line to tread: you can’t ignore one side completely in favour of the other. Canon may hurt a few feelings by leaving video on the 5DII in a “crippled” state and instead develop new cameras that make them more money in the long term, even allowing for lost customers and lost sales of the 5DII. Forget what you think they *should* do for you, their customer; what do you think they *will* do for their shareholders?
The bottom line is this: if you need to buy the next new Canon camera to get a feature that you want instead of getting it for free in a firmware update, then Canon make more money that they can spend on making the next camera even better. This is not a secret. That is how Canon operate. That is why their EOS system is so good. Nikon seem to have chosen a different route of late and only time will tell whose strategy proves the most viable in the long term.
In reply to all my own replies….
Jeez, I do spout a whole load of unsubstantiated, fairy-tale BS on this site, don’t I? It’s amazing what I can make sound plausible (to me) just by making a few, unwarranted assumptions.
At least I can’t be accused of wasting everyone’s time when I should be out taking photographs like a *normal* person. I don’t have a camera. All my gear is back with Canon for a third round of fixes for focusing problems. It’s been a six month marathon, but I’m hoping that this time it will all work for sure.
If you could all cross your fingers for me, I’d appreciate it.
There’s no reason they could not make a EF-v line of video friendly lenses. Back in the early 80’s Chinon made some zooms with power zoom on them, they were bigger and heavier, and totally useless back then. So with today’s tech advances I see no reason they could not add a rocker switch on the of a zoom for smooth zooming video. Also, as DSLR’s evolve they could add it to the body near the shutter button. Smooth zoom is a feature for video, but I’d like to use my whole EF lens collection for video, as often I don’t need motion zooming, so a few EF-v lenses would be good but it would not need to replace all my others.
As for the 20 fps on the Rebel, 24 fps is as slow as you want to go for smooth video, and even with that you don’t want to be shooting action/sports as it will just blur like a too slow shutter speed. For action 30p works decent, 60p is great. Canon knows all this. They must have tested the Rebel 20fps feature as well and knew it was jerky looking before they released it. They could squeeze good 720p out of the 50D chip they smacked into the Rebel, but obviously not decent 1080p. The only reason I can think of is marketing purposes so they could put the 1080p logo on it to stave some buyers from jumping to the micro 4/3 format in which Canon has no product and once you’re buying Panasonic/Olympus lenses for your 1080p GH1 you are probably not buying new Canon lenses. But will this come back and haunt Canon? Will people feel Canon sucks when they start looking at the 1080p footage off their Rebel? Or, maybe Canon has profiled the Rebel buyer enough to know they wont notice jerky video anyway?
Hope your fixes work out, Ted.
Even the largest companies do not have unlimited resources. Firmware updates are usually to fix bugs, not add completely new features, because at some point you have to turn your programmers loose developing the next generation product. No company is perfect. No company produces a perfect product. Electonics are evolving. Geesh all this whining and accusations about crippling products and rewriting firmware to make a camera do something it was never advertised for is quite funny.
Well there is PAL HD and NTSC HD, one being HD with 25 fps, and the other being HD with 30 fps. Have a look on new HD camcorders. One that does 1080/60i will still say NTSC, and one that records in 1080/50i will say PAL.
5DMkII fan boys that think their camera can outdo every video camera out there, in every way, consider this:
Pro camcorders need: –
* a high resolution EVF that is tiltable for lower and higher than eye level.
* XLR audio inputs, with AGC and manual override, with 48Khz PCM audio.
*Timecode in/out
*genlock
*remote CCU interface
*ergonomic access to White Balance, AF/MF, iris, gain, manual and electronic zoom rocker switch
*it needs to feel balanced for steady and comfortable long operation, for tilt,pan,zoom with the ability to pull-focus at the same time as needed. This is even more critical with larger image sensors.
*long record times (FAT 32 will not do) – hey that rhymes!
*If we are going to the cinematic camera route, then we need 4K output, not just 1080p, which is a TV/video format, not digital cinema.
According to EICTA, all display devices sold as “HD ready” must among other conditions accept both 50Hz and 60Hz signals, so it’s a mute issue. As for HD broadcast signals (over the air) yes in Europe they stuck with 50 hz, but unless you are broadcasting HD over the air it is a non-issue. Your HD TV or computer does not care if it’s 24fps, 25fps, or 30fps. 50i and 60i are interlaced, so the progressive frame rate is really 25 (half of 50i) or 30 (half of 60i) fps.
Region codes are the real problem. Just ask Queen Elizabeth why she couldn’t watch the DVD Obama gave her. All this complaining about 50i vs. 60i, 25p vs. 30p is a joke.
Actually, I have tried to play 1080/50i footage using US-spec Sony equipment. It played from a Sony HDV camcorder, it was able to play back the 50i footage despite only recording in 60i, but the Sony KDL-46V4100 wouldn’t accept the 50i signal. The US spec BDP-S350 Blu-ray player and PS3 also will not play back 50i signals. So there’s still more of a compatibility issue than region codes. Some countries like Australia get the majority of electronic equipment being compatible with NTSC formats, despite mainly being PAL based.
sounds like some corner cutting going on…this should not be an issue.
Also, all blu-ray players should play 1080 24p, which has no relationship to NTSC or PAL. So I’m curious what type of disc you tried playing that was 50i in blu-ray player and PS3? My understanding is while a Blu-ray disc will handle either 50i or 60i (and 24p) the DVD playback from those machines will still be region oriented to PAL or NTSC.
I did a training video for a multinational company that was shot on my XH-A1 in 60i and from a Sony HDV in Europe in 50i. I put the footage in both formats on the Edius timeline and edited it, then output a 1080 30p master AVI, as well as a mastered NTSC DVD and PAL DVD. The only problem came when the PAL DVD region code on certain players in the UK, so I sent them a WD 80 gig hard drive with a 50i AVI on it that they mastered locally to get around the region code restrictions.
So NTSC and PAL have not been the problem in HD for me, but the region code issue.
I tried PAL DVDs that I have encoded in the PS3 and Blu-ray player, and they said “Will not support PAL format” on the screen – or something to that effect. I don’t have any 1080/50i or 25p Blu-rays, but I might try encoding one and seeing if it plays in the PS3 or Blu-ray player here, with HDMI to the TV, but I have my doubts. The HDV footage i played in an NTSC HDV camcorder I filmed in Australia using a Sony Z1 in 1080 50i. It played on the US spec Sony HC9, on the viewfinder, it did say 1080/50i, but using an HDMI cable, plugged in to the Sony Bravia, nothing was displayed on the TV. I have noticed it’s common for US spec equipment not to support 50i/25p or PAL – or at least not specified on spec sheets.
Hello,
I found a petition to add 720p HD video option to the Canon SX1 IS. Please sign it here:
http://www.petitiononline.com/canonsx1/petition.html