Markov said:

Indeed. You get more depth of field, when you use the same framing as on a full-frame camera. Or you get the same DOF but with a larger effective magnification.

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Technically, if you keep the subject distance the same between FF and APS-C, the field of view is smaller with APS-C and the depth of field is slightly shallower at the same aperture setting. The ‘deeper DoF with crop’ is entirely due to increasing the subject distance to match framing. The magnitude of the effect of increasing distance on DoF is greater than that of the opposing effect of a smaller sensor.

The scenario of keeping the distance the same is arguably more common with macro photography, because the minimum focus distance (which delivers the maximum magnification for the lens) is an intrinsic property of the lens.

neuroanatomist said:

What was untrue about that comparison, other than your mistaken assumption about what was being compared? The images were photos that I took, and one was taken with longer lens and a bigger sensor while the other was taken with a shorter lens with a smaller sensor. As I stated. You assumed I was comparing APS-C and FF, but really if you look at the image on the left, it's very obvious that it was taken with a smartphone. But your assumption about what I was comparing triggered you, and you can't seem to get past that. How sad for you.

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Inserted, unlabeled, into a discussion about using an APS-C sensor to get more reach from a lens - and prefaced by mocking those who believe in the magic of a crop sensor - no one would assume it was a smartphone photo unless they were familiar with you having done that kind of thing in the past. As a relative newcomer to this forum, I didn't know I was dealing with someone as deceptive as you, and was entitled to take your post at face value. Once again, you try to evade responsibility for a deliberate deception by blaming those who didn't see through it.

Please stop trying to justify your actions by blaming those who criticize them. What's appropriate would be an apology from you - but I'm not holding my breath waiting for one, since an apology from you would be totally out of character.

At this point, I'd settle for you shutting up about this dispute.

This is the first time I've seen this mushroom. They're very pretty with their white stripes. Are they edible?

EricN said:

Which rail are you using?

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This one:

With the extender for a collared lens:

AlanF said:

Optical limits is one of Richard's favourite sites
Summary:
The Good
Very sharp at medium aperture settings
f/1.2 on a budget

The Bad
Blurry corners from f/1.2 to f/2
Excessive axial color fringing at f/1.2
Very pronounced focus shift
Wavy field curvature
Miserable corner bokeh in certain scenes

Click to expand...

Anyway, It costs as much as the list price of the EF 50 mm 1.4 used to be and gives us the optical performance of the EF 50 mm 1.2.
I think it’s a fair package. Maybe I'll give it a try.
If you need „more“ there are RF 50mm 1.4 L VCM and RF 50mm 1.2 L.

Planterz said:

From what I understand, yes. Micro 4/3 cameras are popular for macro for a few reasons. You get extra working distance because you get to/have to back a bit to fill the frame with the same object (assuming same focal length lens). The 2x crop factor gives you twice the depth of field at the same aperture, which in some cases will let you keep the aperture more open for faster shutter speeds and less ISO. I think the Olympus/OM lenses also accept their teleconvertors, so you can combine TCs and extension tubes for some pretty crazy magnification factors (not sure about Panasonic). The higher end M4/3 bodies also have very good IBIS and the stacked sensor ones like the OM-1 can shoot up to 50fps, so you can fire off handheld brackets easier. I've reason something about OM holding a patent for some fancy focus stacking thing they do, but I'm not sure what that is.

Click to expand...

Indeed. You get more depth of field, when you use the same framing as on a full-frame camera. Or you get the same DOF but with a larger effective magnification. I did quite a bit of checking and reading and decided against the micro 4/3 sensor and went for APS-C though. Also because of some of the other features of the R7. I also do flower photography and then the increase DOF can hurt you because the background is not blurred enough. (Fortunately you can correct that in post-processing nowadays.)

IBIS does not work too well with macro. Maybe one or two stops. So when shooting hand-held I always use a shutter speed of 1/300 or more. I often use a diffused flash to get enough light. And don't forget to use continuous autofocus (Servo) as any minor motion of yourself or the subject will throw off the focus.

As far as I know, the focus bracketing of the OM is similar to the R7. (I think OM takes the shots from back to front and Canon from front to back; both have advantages and disadvantage).

Planterz said:

From what I understand, yes. Micro 4/3 cameras are popular for macro for a few reasons. You get extra working distance because you get to/have to back a bit to fill the frame with the same object (assuming same focal length lens). The 2x crop factor gives you twice the depth of field at the same aperture, which in some cases will let you keep the aperture more open for faster shutter speeds and less ISO. I think the Olympus/OM lenses also accept their teleconvertors, so you can combine TCs and extension tubes for some pretty crazy magnification factors (not sure about Panasonic). The higher end M4/3 bodies also have very good IBIS and the stacked sensor ones like the OM-1 can shoot up to 50fps, so you can fire off handheld brackets easier. I've reason something about OM holding a patent for some fancy focus stacking thing they do, but I'm not sure what that is.

Click to expand...

I remember OM has something for astronomy to take multiple photos as opposed to one long exposure, but that's about as far from Macro as you can get.

EricN said:

Back on topic: Is the following correct? Using the smaller sensor on macro, you could achieve the wider depth of field with the same settings (which could be useful for moving subject that can't be focus stacked), but noise would be increased and with the higher magnification, any motion or shake would be more visible.

Click to expand...

From what I understand, yes. Micro 4/3 cameras are popular for macro for a few reasons. You get extra working distance because you get to/have to back a bit to fill the frame with the same object (assuming same focal length lens). The 2x crop factor gives you twice the depth of field at the same aperture, which in some cases will let you keep the aperture more open for faster shutter speeds and less ISO. I think the Olympus/OM lenses also accept their teleconvertors, so you can combine TCs and extension tubes for some pretty crazy magnification factors (not sure about Panasonic). The higher end M4/3 bodies also have very good IBIS and the stacked sensor ones like the OM-1 can shoot up to 50fps, so you can fire off handheld brackets easier. I've reason something about OM holding a patent for some fancy focus stacking thing they do, but I'm not sure what that is.

EricN said:

Which rail are you using?

Click to expand...

I am not using a focus rail. The built-in focus bracketing of the current R7 works fine for most of my situations (I don't do extreme macro). When I am careful I can even use it handheld. The only problems are that you cannot use a flash and that you cannot set the interval between shots, which is in the newer Canon models.

No R100?

PinholeR5 said:

I'm very curious to know how you guys make use of the SA Control

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Post in thread 'Wildflower Photos' https://www.canonrumors.com/forum/threads/wildflower-photos.37056/post-991839

Post in thread 'Flowers and other Flora' https://www.canonrumors.com/forum/threads/flowers-and-other-flora.22225/post-985165


Post in thread 'Autumn/Fall 2022' https://www.canonrumors.com/forum/threads/autumn-fall-2022.41806/post-947024

The R5m2 shows the SAC value in the EVF.

Philnick said:

@neuroanatomist Have you never heard the expression, "Many a true thing is said in jest" ? But of course you take that further by posting untrue things - like that unlabeled comparison photo - and when called on them excuse them as jokes- and blame those who take offense as thin skinned.

That kind of conduct does not belong in a public forum - if indeed it belongs anywhere. The only place I'm aware of it being applauded is when practiced by picadors in a bull-fight. This forum should not tolerate it.

Click to expand...

Why don't you want to blame Bob for bringing up sexuality?

Further off topic: this is the most interesting the forum has been in quite a long time.

Back on topic: Is the following correct? Using the smaller sensor on macro, you could achieve the wider depth of field with the same settings (which could be useful for moving subject that can't be focus stacked), but noise would be increased and with the higher magnification, any motion or shake would be more visible.

Philnick said:

So what, pray tell, was the point of neuro's post #38 in this thread, which explicitly mocked a discussion of the advantages of an APS-C camera in getting more reach from a lens by calling those who said that those "who still believe in fairies, wizards and the magic of the crop factor." and then included the following image:

View attachment 227196
with no disclosure that it was actually a comparison of an iPhone photo to a picture taken with an R3 with a 70-200mm f/2.8L until 63 posts later in post #101, and then only if you followed the link in post #101 to see it was that image.

I consider it perfectly appropriate to call that intentionally deceptive, which is why, in post #85 I was demanding that neuro tell us what gear was used to take those shots. If neuro had labeled that image as what it was in post #38, it could be claimed as disclosed with full caveats, but the opposite was the case.

Click to expand...

It's point should be (and sorry if I'm putting words into mouths) evident purely by observation = the depth of field - which is what we've been talking about! The rest can be attributed to processing/hardware.

Many people state they don't care about depth of field [B]which is fine[/B], but it's important point to it out for the people who do care or are curious.

neuroanatomist said:

If the R7II has the stacked sensor that is mentioned in this rumor, the ability to use flash with electronic shutter and thus combine flash with focus stacking (as currently possible on the R1 and R5II) might be of significant interest to you. That assumes you use the camera's focus stacking feature, if you use a macro rail as I sometimes do then you won't have that limitation.

Click to expand...

Which rail are you using?

Just White-rumped Shama and Red-crested Cardinal from today...

After the rains (and more are coming!) a mushroom that I haven't seen for several dry years: Agaricus rotalis! After that something that I don't know. It's ~3.5-4cm tall...

Philnick said:

@neuroanatomist Have you never heard the expression, "Many a true thing is said in jest" ? But of course you take that further by posting untrue things - like that unlabeled comparison photo - and when called on them excuse them as jokes- and blame those who take offense as thin skinned.

Click to expand...

What was untrue about that comparison, other than your mistaken assumption about what was being compared? The images were photos that I took, and one was taken with longer lens and a bigger sensor while the other was taken with a shorter lens with a smaller sensor. As I stated. You assumed I was comparing APS-C and FF, but really if you look at the image on the left, it's very obvious that it was taken with a smartphone. But your assumption about what I was comparing triggered you, and you can't seem to get past that. How sad for you.

@neuroanatomist Have you never heard the expression, "Many a true thing is said in jest" ? But of course you take that further by posting untrue things - like that unlabeled comparison photo - and when called on them excuse them as jokes- and blame those who take offense as thin skinned.

That kind of conduct does not belong in a public forum - if indeed it belongs anywhere. The only place I'm aware of it being applauded is when practiced by picadors in a bull-fight. This forum should not tolerate it.

Markov said:

That is indeed one of the things I am looking for. And better pre-capture would also be great, e.g. for insects taking off. I do hope the auto focus will be better because it currently has trouble following flying insects.

Click to expand...

Precapture definitely improved post-R7. Current cameras save individual files that don't require DPP to unpack (unlike the R7, IIRC), and with current firmware you can specify the number of shots in the precapture, up to 20. The stacked sensor would also help with AF, especially with tracking because the faster sensor readout allows more sampling for AF (assuming Canon implements that as they did with the R1, which Canon being Canon is unfortunately not a given).

Philnick said:

So what, pray tell, was the point of neuro's post #38 in this thread, which explicitly mocked a discussion of the advantages of an APS-C camera in getting more reach from a lens by calling those who said that those "who still believe in fairies, wizards and the magic of the crop factor." and then included the following image:

View attachment 227196
with no disclosure that it was actually a comparison of an iPhone photo to a picture taken with an R3 with a 70-200mm f/2.8L until 63 posts later in post #101, and then only if you followed the link in post #101 to see it was that image.

I consider it perfectly appropriate to call that intentionally deceptive, which is why, in post #85 I was demanding that neuro tell us what gear was used to take those shots. If neuro had labeled that image as what it was in post #38, it could be claimed as disclosed with full caveats, but the opposite was the case.

Click to expand...

The point was a jab, intended with humor, at those who suggest 'full frame equivalent focal length' is the only thing that changes with a smaller sensor. The post to which I was replying included, "But not for the same effective FL. So a wildlife shooter on APS-C can shoot his 800mm equivalent using a 500mm lens." It was a general comment, honestly somewhat tangential to the post to which I replied. I suggest you not take things personally unless they're clearly intended that way. You'll know when that's the case.

Philnick said:

In this context, don't dump on APS-C because full frame has some advantages over it.

Click to expand...

So in your mind, stating facts such as DoF with APS-C is 1-1/3 stops deeper than with the same focal length on FF and images from an APS-C sensor have 1-1/3 stops more noise at the same ISO compared to a FF sensor is 'dumping on APS-C'.

Then you must also think that stating facts like the higher pixel density of APS-C sensors enables putting more pixels on target and APS-C systems are often smaller, lighter and cheaper than FF systems is 'dumping on FF', right? No, I bet you think those are just pieces of good information because they support your choices.

The bottom line is that cameras are tools, and it's always best to use the right tool for the job. That's why I have and regularly use cameras ranging from an iPhone to full frame, with two sizes in between. It's why I have a large set of lenses to support different types of photography. I shot an outdoor event yesterday, casual and somewhere I could be close to the subjects, and would be taking mainly group shots...I used the PowerShot V1 with its 2x crop sensor and 16-50 equivalent lens. Today, I shot an indoor jazz concert where I would be relatively far from the stage and needed to take ensemble shots and close-ups of soloists...I used the R1 and two lenses covering 24mm to 300mm at f/2.8, and even with that wide aperture I was using ISOs ranging from 3200 to 40000.

scyrene said:

But you have that combination of a superiority complex, a (deliberate?) misconstruing of everything you read, and a brittle defensiveness that makes any discussion pointless.

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I respectfully disagree with your first characteristic. It seems to me that @Philnick has an inferiority complex, at least as far as his camera choices. Basic facts about the smaller APS-C sensor clearly trigger him in some way. Maybe he's just jealous that others have bigger sensors than him.

See, @Philnick ^^that was intended for you to take personally.

PinholeR5 said:

Folks,

I'm very curious to know how you guys make use of the SA Control. A bit of negative to smooth out the background a bit more? Creative effect? I tried it a bit when I first got the lens, but couldn't get much use of the feature and just locked the ring in place and forgot about it.

It was so out of my mind that it bit me in the rear end.

Click to expand...

They should give it a pop-up icon in the EVF when the SAC is active.

The 7D Mark II has another huge advantage over the 5D Mark III: it has DPAF in video. It works incredibly well over the contrast-detect tech found in the more expensive FF model.

neuroanatomist said:

If the R7II has the stacked sensor that is mentioned in this rumor, the ability to use flash with electronic shutter and thus combine flash with focus stacking (as currently possible on the R1 and R5II) might be of significant interest to you. That assumes you use the camera's focus stacking feature, if you use a macro rail as I sometimes do then you won't have that limitation.

Click to expand...

That is indeed one of the things I am looking for. And better pre-capture would also be great, e.g. for insects taking off. I do hope the auto focus will be better because it currently has trouble following flying insects.

AlanF said:

The R7 with the RF 100-400 is also very good for close up/near-macro photographing of insects in the wild. I use it for dragonflies and butterflies where you can't get too close because you scare them away but that kit gets 0.4x magnification from about a metre away.

Click to expand...

I use the RF 100-400 for butterflies and dragonflies and the RF 100 Macro for smaller insects. See my website www.insectenfotograferen.nl for lots of examples.