Canon updates EOS R5 8K and autofocus information

[davo]

I can’t help but laugh at the people who still think this is going to be $3299...

Canon and reps have stated the R5 is aimed towards 5D users so it should be below 4K if that is the case

 

[Bert63]

I can’t help but laugh at the people who still think this is going to be $3299...

I don't laugh at anyone for having an opinion when there aren't facts available to prove them wrong.

 

[herein2020]

Question to sports photographers: would it not be better to film clips of action at 8K 30fps (at say 40mp) and do a frame grab rather than a 1dx3 at 20mp at 16 fps for stills?

No, video is compressed using a video codec (i.e. H.264 or H.265) which throws away far more information than the JPG codec. Also as others have mentioned the shutter speed will be so low that there will be too much motion blur. I suppose you could do a screen capture from a RAW video capture, but that's a very unlikely scenario and still would not be the same quality as a JPG.

Not sure how many 4 hr fashion shows there are.

Plenty of events including fashion shows that I shoot can be well over 4hrs. That's not to say it is 4hrs of continuous filming, but filming getting ready, BTS, model interviews, producer interviews, b roll, audience, sponsors, etc. can quickly add up to hours of footage. The context was that MJPEG is a horrible codec for more than anything but a few seconds of video if that. I wouldn't even shoot b roll with MJPEG.

Glad I wrote "almost nobody!"

Yes of course, if we have the tools we will use it! I just wrote that because i really don´t know how many PC´s will take over that 8k footage and i am almost certain that we will need to wait some time to get proper support from Final cut or Premiere. Before that it will be painfull to use 8k like the 5.5k from1dx3 is being. After that yes, if its more easy to use it...we will use it for sure!!! .

Also the file sizes. You will definitely have to consider really good if you use 8k or 4k. I assume those 8k files are going to be....massive!!! If in 5.5k you can record 3 minutes in 64gb card...i guess in 8k you will record 1 minute! If you have a long project thats insane and you might well record in 4k and only some special scenes in 8k. I record in external record so it is a bit more easy cause I use 1tb ssd´s but even so....you will need huge data storage.

Saying this....I DO believe I will record also in 8k at least some shots! And like I said it before, it´s a HUGE step from Canon witch I praise a lot! But there are a lot things to consider before hitting that record button in 8k and that´s why i wrote that! I don´t believe that most of filmmakers with long term or even medium term projects will embrace 8k. For some few shots....maybe...for hole project...I will not for sure!

I really don't think 8K 4:2:0 8bit LongGOP shot at 30FPS using an H.265 codec will be that much bigger than 4K 4:2:0 8 bit 60FPS LongGOP shot using an H.264 codec. If the data rate is around 200Mb/s for the 8K that's only double the data rate for 4K LongGOP. The 5.5K you referenced is RAW footage which of course will be massive.

I do agree that 8K will be a niche case. I can see using it to give you more focal length in post or some scenarios where you have to keep the camera on a tripod but want to introduce movement into the frame. I've done this plenty of times using 4K or timelapse footage. With that being said, if the footage really is barely larger than 4K 60FPS footage and proxy workflow works well or a simple upgrade of my video card can handle the footage, then 8K might become my new 4K.

 

[navastronia]

I took it to mean more buy once cry once for as high end as you'll ever see yourself potentially needing which I'd side with personally but it doesn't always work for folks and isn't always money well spent. Best bang for buck (for current market performance) can date pretty quick and generally you'll chase incremental upgrades with that which can work well for some not for others. Fwiw I get 6 years out of my rigs capable of heavy lifting without any problems or need for upgrades but they tend to be built around highest end desktop (not always flagship enthusiast bleeding edge but the normal consumer hedt) going on mid range for a dedicated workstation. Works out cheaper for me than a best bang for buck with upgrades as required but I'm able to predict what kind of heavy lifting I'll be doing for next x many years and can budget for it. Not everyone can and thus it could be wasteful. Sounds like going higher end may suit your need if you constantly run into that issue but I'm sure you know that since you know your own circumstances better than a stranger thus I don't intend it as teach you to suck eggs more just make a point worth considering perhaps.

edit: fwiw I have seen some really bad future proof plans and editing hardware situations at a very large global content creators studio though so everyone makes mistakes in their plans so none of us are immune to it. They are large corp so probably write the cost off (not that I see any of the bean countersside of things) but led to a lot of money over given amount of time for rigs they are not quite as capable as same money spent correctly imho. Also some of the staff workflows were not exactly the best way of doing things for the job efficiency nor performance wise. This was kinda sore point when questioned as not that many really knew enough to change it and it was accepted as a fault of the job when really it was users doing things in a not ideal way. Those who did flag it including me just abandoned trying to help since it was taking on other peoples headaches for no real benefit and it sort of worked and people were happy with sorta worked to the extent rocking the boat and retraining staff just wasn't worth the better way pursuit. As usual we all make mistakes, ymmv so it all depends on many factors and sometimes good enough works for people.

To be honest, I didn't really mean anything with my first post, which started this leg of the discussion, aside from that sometimes, you do actually need to upgrade because modern video formats are much more demanding than those from 5 years ago. It happens!

My story:

I built an extreme-budget machine in mid-2012, which I then upgraded with a decent video card and a better processor in 2013 to handle DSLR 1080p video editing and very light post-processing work (upgrade 1). Then in 2015, I dumped a bunch of money into it to add additional RAM and a much better video card, along with SSDs, in order to complete a project editing 4K footage from a GH4 (upgrade 2), which was much more demanding than the video I worked with previously. This build has lasted me all the way to today, and I know from experience that my machine now chokes on modern, high-bitrate 60p 4K footage like that the X-T3. That's OK! I'm not doing much video work right now, and if I get some soon, I'm due for a major overhaul anyway, given I'm still on an AM3+ board

 

[Mt Spokane Photography]

The new numbering system aligns the DSLR and the Mirrorless bodies, R6 is similar in features and price point to 6D, R5 matches 5D and so on. They will likely use the same sensors assuming both go to market. I think that and R1 will replace the 1DX 3.

The real question is what will happen to camera supplies and sales for the rest of the year? No public events, weddings may not have a lot of attendees, wildlife should still do fine, and the R5 might be a good wildlife body.

I photograph a event for the local high school every may. Schools here just closed for a month and most likely until fall. I delivered a photobook today from last May, and am working on January 2020 soon. The long delay is due to having students select from 1500 photos and place them in a 34 -38 page photobook. I create it from the selected photos, print and bind it.

 

[M. D. Vaden of Oregon]

My guess is 3898. lol

I'll step out on a limb, guessing closer to $3500.00

Reason being, I think Canon can make up the difference through the RF lens sales if they don't discount that glass.

 

[Antono Refa]

All I can think of, if Sony release an A7SIII with stunning 4K video that’s more than good enough for the majority of potential buyers, people are bound to complain and say 4K isn’t good enough because Canon offers 8K. It could very easily turn into an unnecessary spec war also with Panasonic also joining the ‘fight’.

The spec war started years ago, with smartphones cameras now having dozens of MP.

 

[koenkooi]

You can edit multiple streams of 8k today on a Mac Pro with a afterburner card Finalcut.

The afterburner only does prores variants for the time being.

 

[Joules]

You swore black and blue it was impossible for the 1Dx3 to offer Raw (ie no processing required, just write the data as is) 5k and DPAF.
Strange that the semi-pro camera can fully process 8k, and still AF....?

Please explain.

The fact is that the 1DX III does not have DPAF available in 5.5K 60p. Pointing that out is not the same as saying it can't be done. But it seemed so.

5.5K at 60p is a tiny bit less data than 8K at 30p. So if the flagship DSLR can't handle AF when dealing with such loads, why would anybody assume a slightly lower mirrorless body (cheaper, less space to dissipate heat, ...) can handle it?

The opinion that the R5 would not be able to use AF in 8K was perfectly reasonable. The fact that Canon obviously withheld some functionality from the 1DX III for the moment and is going all out with the R5 is just crazy awesome.

Also, this suggests the 20 FPS stills mode could also have AF. That's just a brutal spec and completely smacks everything in the face.

For reference, the holy grail of speed, the A7 R IV only handles 76 % of that throughput. We'll still have to wait and see. It sounds too good to be true.

 

[Richard CR]

You swore black and blue it was impossible for the 1Dx3 to offer Raw (ie no processing required, just write the data as is) 5k and DPAF.
Strange that the semi-pro camera can fully process 8k, and still AF....?

Please explain.

I'd like to see where I sore black and blue about it.

I certainly would have mentioned that it's an incredibly large amount of data to process - which it is.

However, it really depends on the codec of the 8K30p. 5.5k60p is 12 bit data from my recollection. From my recollection as well, h.265 or h.264 does not require 12 bit data, but more like 8 or 10 bit data from the sensor. If that's the case the sensor is running far faster on the R5 which could have something to do with it. 4 to 8 times faster. So alot less sensor heat doing 8k h.265 or h.264 data.

As it stands, I'm happy to be proven wrong and the camera does something better than I imagined. I would rather publish realistic goals on a rumor and be pleasantly surprised instead of saying it will do it all including the kitchen sink and come up wanting later on. Setting realistic expectations I think is better.

 

[drama]

I do enjoy everyone willing a $3.5k price into existence with confidence: "Oh, Canon must keep it around that mark if they want the 5D crowd".

Thought experiment: They have just teased an unreal warhorse of a camera. Everyone (including them, it seems) is very excited about it. If it lives up to the hype on launch in reviews, what's the price you leave the conversation at? It sure as hell isn't 3.5k. I'd say if they launch this anywhere under 5k it will fly off the shelves. Canon have never knowingly underpriced themselves. I'm expecting this to come in around 4-4.5k, which would be much closer to Canon's traditional "ouch, that's expensive but I really want it, so screw it" price.

 

[phunguyen]

We all hope Canon has realized they have to stop throwing overpriced stuff out and trying to sell it to people (EOS R ...ahem...). Yeah, few professionals will buy it in $3.000+ range, but meanwhile Sony, BlackMagic, Panasonic, etc. have stolen their entire customer base with $1.000-$2.000 cameras with better or similar video capabilities.
Don't get me wrong, I own 7D and love it, but if Canon prices this thing above $2.500 I am buying competitor's camera as well. Hell, blackmagic has 4K 60fps for $1.300, sounds like one hell of a deal for some good quality footage.

$2500 ??? How the hell you think that price is possible ? Even the Blackmagic 6K with super35 sensor ( no autofocus, no stills, have to add a lot accessories to work with) is $2500, or the a7riv with crappy video capability is $3500. Beside insane 8K video, if R5 have at least 4K 60fps with AF, the price must be at least $3000, but high chance is $3500-$4000, and it will sell like hotcakes.

 

[SecureGSM]

We all hope Canon has realized they have to stop throwing overpriced stuff out and trying to sell it to people (EOS R ...ahem...). Yeah, few professionals will buy it in $3.000+ range, but meanwhile Sony, BlackMagic, Panasonic, etc. have stolen their entire customer base with $1.000-$2.000 cameras with better or similar video capabilities.
Don't get me wrong, I own 7D and love it, but if Canon prices this thing above $2.500 I am buying competitor's camera as well. Hell, blackmagic has 4K 60fps for $1.300, sounds like one hell of a deal for some good quality footage.

Just don't bet your house on it. Promise?

 

[SecureGSM]

I'll step out on a limb, guessing closer to $3500.00

Reason being, I think Canon can make up the difference through the RF lens sales if they don't discount that glass.

Canon cannot make up the difference in a restricted (shrinking market) by offering rock bottom price from the get go... number of sales is the limit. therefore it is a specs war, not a price war. More value for money instead of less money for the same value. hope it makes sense.

 

[Quackator]

Which campaign?

You are bathing your fingers in it right now.

 

[Quackator]

No because you need a higher shutter speed.

It is at your discretion which shutter speed you shoot those 30fps at.

You can always go shorter, you just can't go longer than one over framerate.

 

[SecureGSM]

It is at your discretion which shutter speed you shoot those 30fps at.

You can always go shorter, you just can't go longer than one over framerate.

Are you saying that a rolling shutter is not an issue with frame grabs? there are also other limitations.

 

[Profit007]

The fact is that the 1DX III does not have DPAF available in 5.5K 60p. Pointing that out is not the same as saying it can't be done. But it seemed so.

5.5K at 60p is a tiny bit less data than 8K at 30p. So if the flagship DSLR can't handle AF when dealing with such loads, why would anybody assume a slightly lower mirrorless body (cheaper, less space to dissipate heat, ...) can handle it?

The fact that Canon obviously withheld some functionality from the 1DX III for the moment and is going all out with the R5 is just crazy awesome.

Firstly, since when does the 1Dx3 offer 5.5k @60p???

Secondly, many of us were saying that Canon crippled the 1Dx3 by removing DPAF were it counted most. Mr Canon News claimed it was due to technical limitations, that it wasn't possible.

Those of us more familiar with Canon pro products (including Cinema cameras) knew the truth. Now it's plain for all to see.

In reality the 1Dx3 will create much better video than the R5, which is part of why Canon was willing to 'give away cheaply' high spec DPAF in the R5, but not in the 1Dx3.
Enthusiasts want lots of pixels, pros want good pixels. The camera with the best video pixels was video crippled.

I like the Canon News website, especially now that he's spending more time hunting for interesting patients, but we all need to have our eyes open that Canon is still being Canon. I'm a fan, but not an eyes closed fanboy.

 

[Profit007]

We all hope Canon has realized they have to stop throwing overpriced stuff out and trying to sell it to people (EOS R ...ahem...). Yeah, few professionals will buy it in $3.000+ range

'Professional' means we earn our living (ie a full time wage) with a camera in our hand. Few actual 'professionals' using Canon buy anything less than a '5' series camera, unless it's as a backup or disposable B cam.
To say professionals won't spend $3k on a camera is complete nonsense. Any 'professional' who can't afford a $3k camera needs to get a haircut and a real job. (Or maybe these days, a beard trim and a real job.)
Meanwhile, all power to the enthusiasts and no disrespect meant to them.

 

[BillB]

I can’t help but laugh at the people who still think this is going to be $3299...

People are free to hope what they want and share their hopes as they please. We have to find humor where we can, and Canon Rumors is often enough a good place to find it.