Canon EOS R5 records 4 hours of 4KHQ 30p to an external recorder, with a couple of simple tweaks

[ericjon23]

RIP sony fanboys. this is good news .

 

[Jonathan Thill]

NO he didn't. He specifically said he took the battery out and replaced it with a dummy battery. Note: If it turns out I'm wrong, then please show me at what point in the video he says this. And do you think the body operates without electricity? No, so you plug it in to DC external power. Hence you have no battery to heat up since it's now just an electrical pass thru with no resistance relative to the camera.

It is ok to be wrong. Happens to the best of us.

Linked again in case you missed it -

he also pointed this out on his twitter feed so I cheated and read all the info before posting.

 

[Juangrande]

Why can’t they have an adapter to have the cards fitted externally and for camera to still work with memory card door opened. This way the camera is not as hot and internal recording my go longer as well.

Could work.
Kinda like those cassette adapters for car stereos to play digital media.

 

[skp]

I'm not 100% sure what's going on there, but if you record externally and don't write to the cards, there should be no CPU power spent on the cards anyway. So I guessed a purely physical reason why cards removal might be helping.

I'm really curious about what's going on here, but here's my theory. Let me know if this sounds crazy...
Is it possible that something in the firmware is constantly making the DIGIC chip encode a stream of data encoded to H.264, H.265, or the raw file format even while the camera is not recording? In theory this could have been intended to minimize delay when the user pushes the record button, thus sending the data to start writing to the card. Think of the encoded data stream like a hose that is just constantly on, spraying water into the back yard until the user decides to put the hose in a bucket and start filling up the bucket.
My theory is that the removal of the card is a bug that turns the hose off, but that bug could be the firmware fix to the whole problem. In that case, the firmware fix could simply be to change that behavior so that the CPU-intensive encoding work doesn't start until the user hits record. The tradeoff would be that it might take longer to get a recording started.
For context, I know that when I'm using my friend's Sony FS7 on film sets, I press record and have to wait a second or two as the tally light blinks and then goes solid before I can be confident that the recording has started and thus before I can call out "camera speeding." Some consumers/non-professionals who buy the R5 might get upset if they miss a moment because the camera didn't start recording the instant they hit the record button.

 

[slclick]

Could work.
Kinda like those cassette adapters for car stereos to play digital media.

Yes this, because

It''s very expensive and hacks and bodges like that are welcomed by the small minority of videographers who insist on the form factor even though it's full of compromises. /s

SMH, the video side of things is wraught with frustration, anxiety, regret and general melancholy. Enjoy!

 

[Jethro]

Digesting some of this it strikes me that Canon should release some sort of technical update on this issue. Surely they have been replicating these tests themselves, in all possible variations of cards / batteries / external outputs, and given the ongoing flamewars the issue is causing they should release whatever their results are. Especially if it is a card-based hardware issue, and even more so if may be fixable via firmware.

 

[usern4cr]

It is ok to be wrong. Happens to the best of us.

Linked again in case you missed it -

he also pointed this out on his twitter feed so I cheated and read all the info before posting.

Well, you had the advantage of seeing a 2nd video which did mention he ran it on internal battery power with the cards removed and he got it to go 2 hours before the battery ran out without a heat overrun. Now that I've seen the 2nd video you mentioned (thanks for the post, by the way), that's GREAT!!! ABSOLUTELY!!! But at that time he should have inserted a 2nd charged battery and continued immediately to see if he could get to 3 or 4 hours. Without doing that he can't know whether the limit was just 2 hours or how much further it would be.

I'd also like to see someone do these tests where the camera is on a tripod but instead of looking at a (I assume) non-moving static scene it is looking at a scene with continuous random motion (like a sidewalk or hallway where people are moving continuously). That would keep the and lens AF active for the whole duration, which may (or may not) affect the duration without overheating. If the camera was handheld instead of on a tripod it would also cause the IBIS and lens IS to work continuously.

I do have this question: Can the R5 run 4K HQ which gives a 4K 10 bit 8.2.2 stream to the SD (NOT CFexpress) card continuously? I don't know the answer, so please tell me. If that was the case then you could run the test recording to SD with the CFexpress removed and see what happens.

I have a 2nd question: If physically removing the cards makes such a difference, but having them in the camera but not using them (that is, recording only to the Ninja) does have a heat problem, then that means that the camera is keeping these cards under power whether they're being used or not. That would be a sad & bad thing to do. Canon - did you plan on adding power shut-off to the cards if they're inserted but not used or not? Hmmm? If this is a hard wire thing (and not under software control) then they won't be able to fix it in firmware.

No matter what, knowing recording to the Ninja without the cards installed and with using an internal batter for 2 hours (of the battery limit) is a HUGE saving grace for those wanting to do long video since the Ninja isn't that expensive relative to the Canon setup anyway (and many pros would have it anyway). I bet after more careful testing we'll find all the ways & combinations to get some really long times for 4kHQ, which is superior to (non-HQ)4K.

 

[genriquez]

Umm, doesn't SD lock you out of all the better R5 recording modes?

- A

I'm really curious about what's going on here, but here's my theory. Let me know if this sounds crazy...
Is it possible that something in the firmware is constantly making the DIGIC chip encode a stream of data encoded to H.264, H.265, or the raw file format even while the camera is not recording? In theory this could have been intended to minimize delay when the user pushes the record button, thus sending the data to start writing to the card. Think of the encoded data stream like a hose that is just constantly on, spraying water into the back yard until the user decides to put the hose in a bucket and start filling up the bucket.
My theory is that the removal of the card is a bug that turns the hose off, but that bug could be the firmware fix to the whole problem. In that case, the firmware fix could simply be to change that behavior so that the CPU-intensive encoding work doesn't start until the user hits record. The tradeoff would be that it might take longer to get a recording started.
For context, I know that when I'm using my friend's Sony FS7 on film sets, I press record and have to wait a second or two as the tally light blinks and then goes solid before I can be confident that the recording has started and thus before I can call out "camera speeding." Some consumers/non-professionals who buy the R5 might get upset if they miss a moment because the camera didn't start recording the instant they hit the record button.

My current hypothesis is that CFexpress cards throttle at high temperatures and/or the camera knows to shutdown when the internal temperature might damage or corrupt data on the card. In the 1dx iii which also uses CFexpress, the larger form factor and heat pipes allow for better heat dissipation. On the R5, the form factor is smaller and thus very slow heat dissipation. I think some people are reporting longer possible record times also with SD cards instead of CFexpress.

Alik Griffin asks, "Are CFexpress cards to blame?"

The SanDisk Extreme UHS-II SD card has an operating temperature of, "-13 to 185°F/ -25 to 85°C"
The SanDisk Extreme Pro CFast card has an operating temperature of, -4 to 158°F/ -20 to 70°C"

So maybe if you remove those cards, then the camera has a higher thermal limit? It doesn't have to protect any data from corruption or a memory card from melting.

I never film anything over 2-3 minutes. Let alone 4 hours. But the engineering issues of the camera just fascinate me.

 

[Otara]

My own fiddling is suggesting that they've set some kind of maximum shooting time regardless of actual temperature, with a mandatory cool down time till it resets. I also suspect something has happened where its more aggressive than intended.

I have a dummy battery from my R, I shot in 8k for a while (less than 10 minutes), turned it off and on again and then it came back with a maximum of 10 mins to shoot 8k (in the . Blew air with a USB fan into the empty card slots, removed everything, changed to SD card only, etc. The express card is very cool to the touch, and the available limits dont change even if the CFexpress card isnt in the camera.

Edit: Doh Im confusing estimates with actual duration.

I suspect we're going to see a response from Canon on this soon, be interesting to see what they say.

 

[Jethro]

[QUOTE="Otara, post: 854027, member: 70343"

I suspect we're going to see a response from Canon on this soon, be interesting to see what they say.
[/QUOTE]
I can't believe they haven't been testing this 24/7 over the last week or more?! Anything they do say now will be analysed down to the punctuation marks, so they would be triple-testing any findings, but even so surely they'll put something out soon.

 

[SecureGSM]

I think at best this solves one problem but creates another. Because while you now might be able to record longer video you've sacrificed the versatility of the camera. With the additional attachments it would be much more difficult to use it for photography. If you know you'll only need it for one or the other then it's fine, but switching back and forth between the two no longer becomes very practical. One of the big advantages of hybrid cameras is being able to quickly and easily switch between photo and video. Can't do that with a recorder attached (and all that comes with having one)

Still, it is a solution of sorts to the overheating problem.

Are you saying that a battery grip would sacrifice veRsatility of the camera? Okay

 

[Otara]

This is where the hack might be having an impact on responding?

 

[Otara]

Are you saying that a battery grip would sacrifice veRsatility of the camera? Okay

Not having the cards in the camera might impact stills shooting a bit.

 

[Bdbtoys]

What would be really nice, if they allow direct writes to a usb 3 drive. Would act like an internal w/o the heat of the CFExpress.

 

[SecureGSM]

Not having the cards in the camera might impact stills shooting a bit.

Yeah, who says that you would have to remove cards for stills? Disconnect / ignore cards for video Mode in firmware, keep cards In use for stills.

 

[usern4cr]

Not having the cards in the camera might impact stills shooting a bit.

I don't know the Ninja, so I'm asking this: Can it record stills, or just video?

 

[Chris.Chapterten]

I don't know the Ninja, so I'm asking this: Can it record stills, or just video?

Just video. Hdmi wouldn't support the 8k resolution of the stills anyway.

 

[Mt Spokane Photography]

I saw this video while surfing Youtube this morning as well. It seems to make sense that the less the camera is doing itself, the slower it will heat up.

I have separately heard that CFexpress cards heat up in normal use as well, but since I don't have anything that uses them I don't know. Funny if the card slot is the problem, more than the digic.

I agree with the video that some this seems like it could be affected by firmware, which could help those who don't want to use an external recorder.

-Brian

I noticed that some CF express cards do get quite hot. I wonder how much variation there might be, they likely all use the same internal components.

 

[landon]

Getting weirder.

R5 USAGES?

STILLS ONLY - Photographers
S + Click forever
V - Can't access HQ modes, 4K120p, 8K30p after taking many stills due to heat build up.

DECENT HYBRID - Run and Gun Wedding photo/video
S + Click forever
V + Access basic 4K30p, 4K60p forever
V - Can't access HQ modes, 4K120p, 8K30p after taking many stills/videos due to heat build up.

"Budget" GOOD VIDEO (no stills) - Documentary, interviews, sole wedding videographer, music videos
V + External Ninja 5. No cards in camera, dummy battery, 24p (NTSC): HQ4K24p, HQ4K60p, or other basic modes.
V +? Insert CFExpress card into slot for quick bursts of 4K120p, 8K30p, then remove the card and continue with external recording for other modes?

Budget video = For students or just starting out.
New Canon entry RF Cinema camera is the next step up.

 

[David - Sydney]

I have no issue with Canon offering a service centre option (cost $500?) to retrofit with substantial longer video times. Ideally with HDMI2.1. They did it with initial 5Div upgrade to Canon log for $99 (plus shipping). This wasn't a simple firmware upgrade. Canon then baked in the upgrade for new versions and increased the cost from $3500 to $3600. That would be acceptable if the change is only $100. if more then....
Or, Canon could then have 2 models R5 and R5v (see the v = video and also 5 )
Or, Canon releases a grip with built-in peltier fan cooling connected to the tripod mount/ base plate for $500. Preferably with 2 batteries or maybe just 1 would give you 2 hours of recording
And/or, Canon could also now announce a partnership with Atomos etc for a compatible video solution with longer times