Canon will release an APS-C RF mount camera(s) later in 2022 [CR3]

[stevelee]

Although that is a relevant question for the dealers and for Amazon, it’s irrelevant here. The point is, a lot EOS M-series cameras are selling in the UK, so when someone claims they aren’t selling well there because that person has only seen a couple of them ‘in the wild’ and their local shoppe doesn’t carry them, their claim is refuted by the facts.

Or at least more significant anecdotal data.

All the sports photographers I know shoot Nikons, BTW.

 

[slclick]

I have a request.

Can we have a few more people chiming in as to what they see other photographers using which they initially state as a representation in a regions sales and usage but then when called upon their statement, argue they were taken out of context and restate it in a lengthier way? Neuro needs more busy work.

Thanks

 

[privatebydesign]

I have a request.

Can we have a few more people chiming in as to what they see other photographers using which they initially state as a representation in a regions sales and usage but then when called upon their statement, argue they were taken out of context and restate it in a lengthier way? Neuro needs more busy work.

Thanks

It’s funny how distorted an environment we can actually be in. I have been to one local location and seen half a dozen EF 400 DO II’s, and another (not local) where I have seen over ten EF 200 1.8 and f2’s being used at the same time.

Just goes to show how irrelevant and unrepresentative a single data point could be.

 

[Deleted]

It’s funny how distorted an environment we can actually be in. I have been to one local location and seen half a dozen EF 400 DO II’s, and another (not local) where I have seen over ten EF 200 1.8 and f2’s being used at the same time.

Just goes to show how irrelevant and unrepresentative a single data point could be.

It also depends on the type of tog. I mainly run around the country shooting wildlife. So the groups I see most often are similar. Many shoot high end kit from all brands. The last few years there has been a bit of a move amongst the older generations towards m4/3 as some begin to struggle with big kit. That style seems to have become quite popular. It is also why many like APS-C.

 

[privatebydesign]

I have successfully avoided visiting this thread until now--typically, the way that some (but not all) of the notions expressed on CR about the M remind me of the current debates here in America about vaccines (or ivermectin/hydroxychloroquine/evolution/abortion/immigration/gun control/gay marriage/transsexuals/religion/health care).

I've made my views on this general topic (i.e. the EF-M format) very clear...for years and years on this very board: to sum up--Canon would be foolish to cede the small-and-light, high-quality ILC market to Nikon and Sony. We have several M-format cameras in our family...we have images acquired using Canon's M that demanded the size, weight, volume (and stealthiness?!) of an M. Can you say Rolling Stones concert?

But here's why I've given in...and now posting this here...on my favorite Canon site.

In six days (weather and circumstances permitting), our family is meeting up in the Disney/Orlando area for two nights...and then Cocoa Beach FL for a week.

We've been at this for over thirty years (probably half as long as some who post here!).

The goal of this trip, for the entire family?

Vacation fun.

For me (but not the others), vacation fun includes photography--lots of photography (we've over 31K photos organized via jAlbum and posted online [password-protected])...and it is kind of neat to see loved ones who pooh-pooh the process of picture-taking...smile when they see the images weeks, months, years and now decades later. They are delighted I was persistent.

For everything from various -scapes (including land and ocean) and eclipses (solar and lunar), fireworks, Space Shuttle and SpaceX launches...to literally dozens of attractions at Walt Disney World, Universal Studios and Sea World, and spring training baseball as well as golf tournaments, Canon's M-format bodies and lenses have performed admirably during our trips to Florida. In fact most (but not all) of these images are indistinguishable from those acquired using a 5DMkIII and L-series lenses--especially with the M6MkII, a small, lightweight and UNOBSTRUSIVE piece of electronics that is a joy to use (but still not perfect).

In the next couple of days, I'll be deciding what to pack in my carry-on bag, a bag specifically designed to fit underneath a typical airline seat.

I'll be sure to pack:

*M6MkII (+charger and extra battery) & EVF-DC1 viewfinder
*EF-M 11-22 IS and 18-150 IS lenses
*270 EX-II flash
*Panasonic AA recharger
*(very smallish) lightweight (and rather flimsy) telescopic tripod designed for a small camcorder (but ideal for an M body mated to any M lens)
*Dell XPS 13 9380, charger and mouse
*Instand laptop stand
*power strip/surge protector

=====

I'm likely to pack:

M6 (with the EF-M 22 attached to it)
EF/EF-M adapter
EF 70-300 IS II; EF 35 f2 IS lenses

=====

All of these items, packed more-or-less individually inside separate padded bags, easily fit inside of an American Tourister piece of luggage that slides nicely under the Southwest Airlines seat in front of me.

Some (but not all) of this would not be possible with my EF (and, over the next several months, R) gear.

=====

And finally...(nearly) always in my pocket:

*iPhone 12 Pro Max

=====

Repeating myself:

Canon would be foolish to cede the small, high-quality market to Nikon and Sony. And there is room for both the R and M formats.

I keep reading that the M series does well in many parts of Asia. Maybe Canon will design and sell the M6MkIII in Japan.

Where and when do I sign up for that? It's been a bit over two years, I think, since the release of the M6MkII.

...it would not be my first purchase of an M (specifically, the M2) from Japan.

Thanks for reading.


EDIT: apparently the M200 (which I've considered purchasing...talk about slim and light) is the #1 mirrorless seller in the UK on amazon.

Thanks AlanF (two posts previous to this one...posted while I was constructing this mess)--just look at that list! The M200 is the only Canon entry...

I’ll be in Cocoa Beach tomorrow. It’s a small world and there most certainly is still a place for small cameras, one only has to look at actual sales data to realize that!

 

[EOS 4 Life]

based on my limited business acumen, that strategy would seem like cameras don't fit well into their current business unit segments and would be relatively easy to sell off as an independent entity.

Sony's business is all over the place.
On the other hand, they are insisting on people use the Alpha name.

 

[EOS 4 Life]

My thought is that the camera division is just a supplement to selling sensors.

Sony prices their cameras too aggressively if that is what they want to accomplish.
They are out-competing their sensor customers.

 

[EOS 4 Life]

As an example, one of the lenses I shoot with is a ef 200mm f/2.8L USM II that I purchased for around $600.

I have a 120-300 f/2.8 that weighs over 8 pounds.
Using primes to cover that range would save me a lot of weight.

 

[EOS 4 Life]

This might not be what many photography enthusiasts want to hear, but I suspect what Czardoom has stated above is the truth.

It looks like most camera sales are at the lower end of the market. Entry level DSLRs and mirrorless cameras which are popular with beginners, social media fans and vloggers looking for something better than smartphones for photos and video.

A whole lot more people in the past would have simply bought cheap point-and-shoot cameras, which have been displaced to a greater extent by smartphone cameras. That's most likely the explanation for the 90% reduction or whatever the figure is in the camera market.

Professionals are like tradesmen, they usually use the tools of their trade for quite a while, buy new tools when they need them, and upgrade if there is an obvious cost-benefit advantage to their business.

The internet influencers, vloggers and forums may give a false impression of who is driving the market. Passion doesn't equate to actual market numbers necessarily. The enthusiasts worldwide buy expensive gear often, seeking the latest and greatest, but they're a subset of the photography world, which is a subset of the whole population.

From Hobbies & interests in the United States 2021 | Statista - https://www.statista.com/forecasts/997050/hobbies-and-interests-in-the-us it appears that 20% of people surveyed in the US identified photography as their hobby, and it ranks 13th, below gardening, which is 11th in the list.

What percentage of this 20% are using smartphones, entry-level cameras, mid-tier prosumer gear or top-tier professional gear?
Of the portion using mid-tier prosumer gear or top-tier professional gear, what percentage are using Sony, Nikon or Canon?
If we slice the pie each time, to an ever thinner slice, that last Canon slice represents the group that we're a smaller subset of, because not all (probably very few) pro photogs using Canon gear would be on internet forums. If we used Set Theory to represent this as a Venn diagram, I suspect that Canon users across all forums collectively wouldn't represent a large percentage of the market.

View attachment 201493

The high end of the market is still important.
Sony and Canon make a lot of money selling lenses.
The people hire up the market spend more money on lenses.

 

[EOS 4 Life]

I too wonder what lens would serve me better. I am shooting my ef 100-400 on the R5. I sometimes put the 1.4 extender on and other than driving the iso and noise up I am happy with the results. The RF 100-500 would be a cleaner solution. If not that what? The big whites are out of my price range. What about a 500 DO with a built in 1.4 extender? Or 200-600 f5.6. Price would probably still be an issue.

I just ordered a Sigma 150-600 Contemporary from Adorama since the sale price is not much more than the RF 600 f/11.
I still plan to get an RF 800 f/11 with a 2x teleconverter.
Sigma makes a 500 f/4 for less than the price of the Canon 400 f/4 DO but it weighs as much as the Canon 600 f/4.

 

[EOS 4 Life]

If you don't believe Neuro:

View attachment 201500

Lumix does not sell nearly that well in the USA

 

[slclick]

Unless you're stil churning out various repies, pls share us the Lumix USA numbers. I have seen a lot. Although, I will be the first to say what I've seen doesn't amount to squat in regards to sales figures.

 

[mdcmdcmdc]

That's interesting, because on amazon.co.uk, the M200 is the #1 bestselling MILC and the M50 II is the #2 bestselling DSLR (no idea why they categorize it as one).

Probably because the M50ii has a built-in EVF so it “looks” like a DSLR to Amazon’s classification algorithm.

 

[LogicExtremist]

The high end of the market is still important.
Sony and Canon make a lot of money selling lenses.
The people hire up the market spend more money on lenses.

Yes, it sure is, it's where the camera companies can showcase their innovation, the latest and greatest, what they're really capable of doing. This has great marketing value in terms of promoting the brand. This market is probably low sales volume, high margin, wheras the bulk of their business comes from the high sales volume lower margin entry level products, which probably subsidise the R&D for the development of the high end products.

 

[EOS 4 Life]

Unless you're stil churning out various repies, pls share us the Lumix USA numbers. I have seen a lot. Although, I will be the first to say what I've seen doesn't amount to squat in regards to sales figures.

I am not on a device that can produce a screen capture that large but you are free to check yourself.

Amazon Best Sellers: Best Mirrorless Cameras

Discover the best Mirrorless Cameras in Best Sellers. Find the top 100 most popular items in Amazon Electronics Best Sellers.

www.amazon.com

I do not want to give the impression that I have access to overall sales figures.
I was just referring to an Amazon to Amazon comparison country to country.

 

[unfocused]

Yes, it sure is, it's where the camera companies can showcase their innovation, the latest and greatest, what they're really capable of doing. This has great marketing value in terms of promoting the brand. This market is probably low sales volume, high margin, wheras the bulk of their business comes from the high sales volume lower margin entry level products, which probably subsidise the R&D for the development of the high end products.

That thinking is behind the times I’m afraid. With the low end market now replaced by smart phones, all the camera companies are competing for the enthusiast market, which is where the money is these days. Enthusiasts have disposable income and aren’t constrained by budget. It’s not a showcase it’s the bread and butter today.

 

[privatebydesign]

That thinking is behind the times I’m afraid. With the low end market now replaced by smart phones, all the camera companies are competing for the enthusiast market, which is where the money is these days. Enthusiasts have disposable income and aren’t constrained by budget. It’s not a showcase it’s the bread and butter today.

Not quite yet, whilst the move is in that direction sales figures do not yet support that. There are still pretty voluminous DSLR Rebel kit and EOS M kit markets out there.

 

[neuroanatomist]

That thinking is behind the times I’m afraid. With the low end market now replaced by smart phones, all the camera companies are competing for the enthusiast market, which is where the money is these days. Enthusiasts have disposable income and aren’t constrained by budget. It’s not a showcase it’s the bread and butter today.

The fact that something is repeated frequently on Internet forums does not make it true.

Consider:

• In 2019 and 2020, FF cameras comprised 10-12% of the ILC market.
• Canon has approximately 50% market share, Sony is second with not quite 25% but Sony sells more full frame mirrorless cameras (at least for now). Canon must be selling a lot more of something.
• About 40% of ILCs produced are DSLRs. Sony doesn’t make any, and Nikon does but they are a distant third in market share. Canon must be selling a lot of DSLRs.
• Of the top 10 best selling cameras in Japan, almost all are generally APS-C, and the Canon cameras that are perennially on that list are variants of the EOS M and xxxD DSLRs – i.e., the low cost members of the family.

What are the expensive crop cameras being purchased by all of these wealthy enthusiasts? I’m sure the high end market is profitable, with nice fat margins.

But as far as volume, the facts support entry-level APS-C cameras as the dominant segment. As we all know, some people refuse to let their opinions be changed by something as prosaic as facts.

 

[unfocused]

Not quite yet, whilst the move is in that direction sales figures do not yet support that. There are still pretty voluminous DSLR Rebel kit and EOS M kit markets out there.

True, by volume Canon is content to continue to churn out low cost Rebels and M bodies, but I was responding to the claim that the high end market is primarily a marketing showcase, if you look at where the innovation and emphasis is these days, it’s clear that all the companies are focused on the enthusiast market.
If you want to know what a company’s priorities are look at where the investment is and clearly Canon’s investment is in the lucrative enthusiast market.
But it’s not just Canon. Across almost all of the retail sector it’s the higher end products that are booming. Those products are less sensitive to economic downturns and have higher margins. You can’t just look at sales volume you have to consider margins as well.

 

[unfocused]

The fact that something is repeated frequently on Internet forums does not make it true.

Consider:

• In 2019 and 2020, FF cameras comprised 10-12% of the ILC market.
• Canon has approximately 50% market share, Sony is second with not quite 25% but Sony sells more full frame mirrorless cameras (at least for now). Canon must be selling a lot more of something.
• About 40% of ILCs produced are DSLRs. So he doesn’t make any, and Nikon does but they are a distant third in market share. Canon must be selling a lot of DSLRs.
• Of the top 10 best selling cameras in Japan, almost all are generally APS-C, and the Canon cameras that are perennially on that list are variants of the EOS M and xxxD DSLRs – i.e., the low cost members of the family.

What are the expensive crop cameras being purchased by all of these wealthy enthusiasts? I’m sure the high end market is profitable, with nice fat margins.

But as far as volume, the facts support entry-level APS-C cameras as the dominant segment. As we all know, some people refuse to let their opinions be changed by something as prosaic as facts.

Sometimes you would be better served by actually reading what people write instead of just knee jerk attacks. Certainly you can’t really believe that Canon thinks the dying low end market is the future.
Everthing Canon has done in the past several years indicates they see the enthusiast market as the future (At least until that market ages out in five to 10 years)