Why Waiting for The Next Rf Body Is So Frustrating

YuengLinger

EOR R
Dec 20, 2012
2,426
480
Southeastern USA
Please note that a few of these points I've made in replies in other threads, but I've add a few and boiled down what disappoints me as a loyal Canon customer. If you love your EOS R, that's great! Keep shooting!

I've admitted I haven't tried the EOS R, as a disclaimer. I've never tried to mislead anybody about this fact.

But thanks to all the resources on the web, we can view dozens of videos, read scores of reviews, and wade through and get entangled in pages and pages of forum discussions. We can look at the buttons layout ourselves, and we can read the user manual, all 600+ pages of it.

For me, this is more than enough information to decide that the EOS R is not the camera for me. Besides being awkward to use, it is not a pro level body. And that's fine--not everybody needs a pro level body.

But to see that Canon has released what are clearly lenses designed for the most demanding photographers, be they pros or enthusiastic amateurs, lenses that cannot be used on EF bodies, is very frustrating. They offer the great lenses, but there is a catch: We are supposed to buy a body we don't think is up to our standards. And Canon doesn't follow up, nearly a year after the release of the R and rf lenses, with any type of clear release schedule for a pro body.

Here's the key reason it's frustrating. My 5D's AF significantly outperforms my 5D III's AF. I could just buy a second 5D IV and sell the 5D III. Yet now those RF lenses are hanging out there; however, to use them, I'd have to take a step down from the performance, handling, and reliability of the 5D IV.

More than likely Canon and its customers will get though this transition period. But seeing the industry earthquakes of late, and Canon's lack of clear guidance, personally, I'm not as confident as in years past that Canon can and will follow through. Sure, it's extreme extrapolation to imagine Canon might just throw in the towel and sell off the EOS line and leave customers without the current wonderful support, but when a company just shrugs off the importance of a road map for its better customers, I wonder what the heck is going on.
 
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unfocused

EOS 5D SR
Jul 20, 2010
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I'm not going to repeat everything I've already said. I'll just say that I think Canon believes they have already released a professional level body. And, there are certainly plenty of professionals out there that agree.

Perfect? No. Is it the body you are personally looking for? Apparently not.

If Canon Rumors guy is right, there are likely to be four full frame mirrorless bodies announced or available in the next year to 18 months – the R, the RP, a high megapixel "Rs" and a sports oriented "R1D."

Having used the R for the past several months I can fully believe that Canon needs to take another six to 12 months to perfect the R1D. There is a lot to like about the R, and it is usable for sports, wildlife and birds in flight, but it's no match for the 1Dx.

Personally, I find it a bit offensive that you seem to feel you are more "demanding" than those of us who find the R useful for our work. "Picky" might be a better adjective.

But, the main point I want to make is that if you are not interested in a high megapixel camera or a high frame rate bombproof monster, then you might be waiting a long time for whatever it is you want.

Canon currently offers three full-frame DSLR models -- the 6D, the 1Dx and the 5D,. which has three variants -- the regular 5D, and two high resolution models. In a shrinking market and knowing that all full frame bodies are niche products, I'm not sure it's realistic to expect that we will see more than the two existing and two rumored mirrorless full frame cameras.
 

YuengLinger

EOR R
Dec 20, 2012
2,426
480
Southeastern USA
Unfocused, you might be right about the long wait for a 5D type of mirrorless. No, I don't want to pay $8000 to upgrade a 5D IV, nor do I want to work with a camera the size of a 1DX. I'd simply buy a second 5D IV and wait to see if Canon ever does offer an upgrade to it, mirrorless or otherwise.

Good point about FF cameras being niche products!
 
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Aussie shooter

@brett.guy.photography
Dec 6, 2016
406
397
Yes. 4 FF mirrorless models makes sense. The entry-level RP. The R. The Rs and the Rx. So if we go by that theory then the 5d equivalent is the R and you probably won't see the body you want until the R is updated. Having said that however I don't think the first upgrade will be a 4 year wait. I would guess maybe another 18months but that is just a gut feeling.
 
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BillB

EOS 6D MK II
May 11, 2017
1,103
351
More than likely Canon and its customers will get though this transition period. But seeing the industry earthquakes of late, and Canon's lack of clear guidance, personally, I'm not as confident as in years past that Canon can and will follow through. Sure, it's extreme extrapolation to imagine Canon might just throw in the towel and sell off the EOS line and leave customers without the current wonderful support, but when a company just shrugs off the importance of a road map for its better customers, I wonder what the heck is going on.
I agree that several camera manufacturers make go out of business or get swallowed up by someone, but I very much doubt that Canon will sell off it's photography business. In fact, Canon seems to me to be the least likely of the players in the industry to do so. Nikon is touch and go. Sony has a history of walking way from neat consumer products that never turn into cash cows, and the other players are so small that they are never going to eat anybody's lunch.
 

BillB

EOS 6D MK II
May 11, 2017
1,103
351
By the end of this year, Canon will have the Holy Trinity of f 2.8 zooms with the RF mount. The EF versions of these zooms have been workhorse lenses for a lot of 5D (and 1Dx) owners. So where is the workhorse camera to go with the new workhorse RF Holy Trinity of zooms? By this logic, maybe there will be either a quick upgrade of the R or another model that looks something like a mirrorless 5DV.
 
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unfocused

EOS 5D SR
Jul 20, 2010
4,874
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Yes. 4 FF mirrorless models makes sense. The entry-level RP. The R. The Rs and the Rx. So if we go by that theory then the 5d equivalent is the R and you probably won't see the body you want until the R is updated. Having said that however I don't think the first upgrade will be a 4 year wait. I would guess maybe another 18months but that is just a gut feeling.
That's my guess as well. It's new technology, so the refresh rate may be shorter.

Also, it seems like the mirrorless cameras may get more useful and comprehensive firmware updates than DSLRs. I don't know if that is because it is easier to add features to a mirrorless or not, but so far the R has gotten one pretty good update and I believe another one is imminent if I recall correctly.

True, a firmware update won't satisfy the two card slot people, but I'm not sure Canon agrees with their perspective anyway. Frankly, I'd love it if Canon would regularly tweak the autofocus through firmware updates and possibly up the frame rate, like they did with the original 7D.
 

Jack Douglas

CR for the Humour
Apr 10, 2013
6,088
1,024
Alberta, Canada
Speaking of myself, it's ever so easy to lust after what you don't have. Getting better "things" does help but from my experience it's not a miracle worker - the old grass is greener on the other side principle. I'm also interested in a higher MP camera based on my 20 MP's but I constantly remind myself that I'm getting a lot of pretty good photos at ISO12800 that I couldn't get close to when I shot 6D, and don't mention 1D4. I'm still the weak link ... so why am I even following these threads?!!:unsure:;)

Jack
 

Joules

EOS RP
Jul 16, 2017
231
147
Hamburg, Germany
It seems to me like Canon is working to make the high res R the one camera to rule them all. Sure, they could leave out the second card slot again in true Canon fashion, but apart from that it should be a really capable device.

If they really just upscale the M6 II sensor and keep the throuput the same, it will be a 5.5 FPS 83 MP camera with the possibility of reading a cropped sensor area for increased frame rates and likely the option for reading binned pixel modes (currently just used for video?). My guess would be that they can handle greater throughput and just held back a bit in the M6 II. Or the processing end can't keep up with more in such a small and affordable body.

We've seen numerous mentions of Canon working on IBIS and this being the body that will most likely get it as the large resolution means it can really benefit from it.

In terms of viewfinder technology, I'm wondering what improvements we might see. With the ability to get data off the sensor faster and better processors higher refresh rates might be feasible. I haven't really tried an EVF yet, but I use a 144HZ gaming monitor and can't see how a 60HZ viewfinder is sufficient for action oriented photography. Sufficiently high refresh rates could also allow using backlight strobing to eliminate blur. And seeing that HTC went with an LCD instead of OLED Display for their new VR headset, maybe it could be beneficial for use in cameras after all. I would at least assume that contrast and color accuracy are less important than how sharp and snappy it is in an EVF. Battery life might be the limiting factor there maybe. On the other hand the 90D has 35% better battery life than the 80D so Canon clearly managed to improve their electronics.

The call not to replace the 7D II makes sense to me if Canon has a high pixel density camera with an amazing EVF and the option for high framerates as well aa improved stabilization coming soon. Only thing stopping such a camera from being a workhorse would probably be the file size if it doesn't handle reduced output sizes well, right?
 

BillB

EOS 6D MK II
May 11, 2017
1,103
351
It seems to me like Canon is working to make the high res R the one camera to rule them all. Sure, they could leave out the second card slot again in true Canon fashion, but apart from that it should be a really capable device.
I don't know whether Canon is designing the high res camera as the one camera that will rule them all, but several posters on the forum seems to think so. One issue is whether a crop mode with higher fps is really feasible at a reasonable cost and another is whether the AF would be good enough for the needs of the 5D and 7DII users, again at a the right price point.
 

Joules

EOS RP
Jul 16, 2017
231
147
Hamburg, Germany
One issue is whether a crop mode with higher fps is really feasible at a reasonable cost and another is whether the AF would be good enough for the needs of the 5D and 7DII users, again at a the right price point.
With electronic shutter it must be usable, or else Canon would not have put it in the M6 II. The 30 FPS Burst mode is just that: A crop of the middle of the sensor, which lowers the resolution and therefore allows the higher frame rate. It will be interesting to see what disadvantages using the electronic shutter will have.

We'll see about that soon when the new APS-C models start shipping and people can use them in more varied scenarios. We'll also see what improvements Canon can make with AF on the new sensor and how much they can squeeze out of the old ones when the R firmware update releases.
 

canonnews

EOS RP
Dec 27, 2017
301
247
Canada
www.canonnews.com
Please note that a few of these points I've made in replies in other threads, but I've add a few and boiled down what disappoints me as a loyal Canon customer. If you love your EOS R, that's great! Keep shooting!

I've admitted I haven't tried the EOS R, as a disclaimer. I've never tried to mislead anybody about this fact.
I don't see the problem. You could get a used 5D IV to cover you as a spare, and the net value (purchase price - used sale price) isn't going to be significant.

how long did it take sony to get "pro" level cameras? the III series? That was four years after the A7 / A7R was originally released.
Canon isn't going to take that long, probably 18 months or so until they have it.
Canon isn't going to release it until they have the technology for AF performance, video,etc ready for it.
Also the R from all users point of view has been better than the sum of it's specifications, and with continual firmware updates has only gotten better.

Just to note - if this is based upon the 2021 rumor. that's for a 1 SERIES body. Not a 5D pro body.
 
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YuengLinger

EOR R
Dec 20, 2012
2,426
480
Southeastern USA
I love the 5D IV, and I might get another one. I don't mind buying new when they are discounted on Amazon, lately as low as $2400 USD (but the deal has passed).

But the ef 50mm 1.2 is not for me. Just doesn't measure up in IQ, and working around focus shift is a deal breaker. I had the 85mm 1.2L II, and I probably should have kept it, but the allure of IS on the 85mm 1.4L prompted me to switch. I like this 85mm 1.4L, but it lacks in the punch and drama I liked in the 1.2. BUT, now the even BETTER RF 85mm 1.2 is calling my name... o_O

For a portrait photographer, these are important lenses. So, with the RF lenses out there, I do find it frustrating that Canon has neither a pro body for them, nor a clearly articulated plan for when and what type of Rf body they will release next. Perhaps you don't find it a problem, and that's fine.

But, today, after watching yet another video, this one with Jared Polin comparing the 5D IV to the EOS R, I went ahead and ordered an R with a 50mm. Based on what I've read on this forum, and countless reviews and videos, for all its shortcomings, the R does work very well for portraits, perhaps yielding an even better AF hit rate than the venerable 5DIV for such use.

Maybe I'll love it and eat a little crow for speaking out so negatively about the lack of a pro mirrorless with those lenses out there. Fair enough! Or maybe I'll slap myself in the forehead for ordering something that wasn't right for me.

In any event, Canon doesn't seem to be in a big hurry to tell me what they are up to; so, I've made my decision to start using that glass. Chalk it up to GAS!

In the end, I'm grateful to all the members of Canon Rumors for their sharing of opinions, advice, and techniques. Even those who say, "Love it or leave it!"
 
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neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
Jul 21, 2010
24,546
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So, with the RF lenses out there, I do find it frustrating that Canon has neither a pro body for them, nor a clearly articulated plan for when and what type of Rf body they will release next. Perhaps you don't find it a problem, and that's fine.
A roadmap would be nice, but Canon has never been in the habit of providing them (a few ‘development announcements’ notwithstanding, and where is that 600/4 DO they showed off, anyway?!?). I don’t see why mirrorless would change their usual practice.


Maybe I'll love it and eat a little crow for speaking out so negatively about the lack of a pro mirrorless with those lenses out there. Fair enough! Or maybe I'll slap myself in the forehead for ordering something that wasn't right for me.
Either way, I hope you’ll share your outcome!
 

SteveC

M50 & T6i
Sep 3, 2019
119
64
@YuengLinger:

Given that you don't seem to be interested in action photography, the R should fill your needs. The substantive complaints about it (other than only one card slot) seem to all hang on its performance as an action camera.

I got to play with one today and although I really don't know enough about photography to be able to put a camera through its paces, I was pleased with it overall. I'd love to see what they come up with with a larger sensor--I can wait; I'm not really ready for a camera of that caliber--yet.
 

Kit Lens Jockey

EOS 7D MK II
Nov 12, 2016
501
174
I said this in another thread and I'll say it here... Canon is behind as far as mirrorless body technology is concerned.

The R isn't a bad camera, but it's a little slow, laggy, and lacking some features compared to other mirrorless camera brands.

However, it was likely decided that they couldn't hold back releasing their mirrorless system any longer, so they gave us the R. They know it's not up to the quality of what most people would consider a "pro" body. But they couldn't let both Sony and Nikon be in the game with their own full frame mirrorless and have absolutely nothing to offer.

On the lens side, there's nothing that special or uniquely challenging about making RF lenses, so they are cranking those out right and left. But they just don't have the technology ready for release yet to give people a truly pro quality mirrorless. They'll get there, but it seems that they're still a year or so out.

I'm sorry there isn't a perfect camera company, but there just isn't. Canon has great lenses, but they are still struggling to get their mirrorless tech up to par. If that's unacceptable for you, Nikon and Sony bodies are readily available. I just find the incessant complaining about this ridiculous. We are all here because we like Canon cameras and lenses. We like the way they work, we like their quality, we like their durability. Unfortunately Canon is behind in their mirrorless tech right now. I'm sure if they were ready to release a better RF body, they would. There is no executive at Canon vindictively holding back new Camera bodies just to spite you.

Either use the cameras and lenses that are available, or don't. Technology is always advancing, and it tends to move exponentially, so more and more there is always going to be a faster or better camera just on the horizon. Ten years ago we all would have killed for a camera like the R. But, today it's lackluster enough that it's seen as an unacceptable hindrance to taking good photos.
 
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SteveC

M50 & T6i
Sep 3, 2019
119
64
On the other side of things, I got to play with an R yesterday, and I found some things frustrating about it (apparently my nose kept sending the autofocus point to the bottom of the frame, but somehow touching the screen in the center wouldn't send it back unless I held the camera far away from my face). But I am aware that those very things are customizable. Other than those (readily fixable--given a couple of hours to futz with it with a manual) things, it was a vastly superior camera compared to what I have now. But of course, it has been a year or so since it came out and now I'd want a m6/90d but upscaled sensor in it.

Which by itself wouldn't address the gripes by those much more advanced than I am. There's obviously a huge upside to camera quality from where I am at.
 

richperson

I'm New Here
Sep 6, 2019
9
17
But, today, after watching yet another video, this one with Jared Polin comparing the 5D IV to the EOS R, I went ahead and ordered an R with a 50mm. Based on what I've read on this forum, and countless reviews and videos, for all its shortcomings, the R does work very well for portraits, perhaps yielding an even better AF hit rate than the venerable R for such use.
If you use it with an open mind (program the button layout how you like) I think you will really like it in the end. I only do portraits for family and friends, but the R would definitely be my choice there. I tend to use it most with the 28-70 F/2 because of the versatility, but glad you are getting the 50mm to go with it, as that probably provides the most impressive results. I hope you like it.
 

koenkooi

EOS 7D MK II
Feb 25, 2015
429
254
If you use it with an open mind (program the button layout how you like) I think you will really like it in the end. I only do portraits for family and friends, but the R would definitely be my choice there. I tend to use it most with the 28-70 F/2 because of the versatility, but glad you are getting the 50mm to go with it, as that probably provides the most impressive results. I hope you like it.
Spending some time to remap buttons and populate 'My Menu' is certainly worth it. The R I rented was behaving just differently enough from my RP to be annoying. After changing the settings both the RP and R have in common it was a lot better. Then I had some fun with all the settings the RP doesn't have :)
I had the touchbar disabled, it felt like something I'd need more than week to get used to. I'll have a go at that the next time I rent an R.
 
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