Why Waiting for The Next Rf Body Is So Frustrating

Jack Douglas

CR for the Humour
Apr 10, 2013
6,088
1,024
Alberta, Canada
"On the lens side, there's nothing that special or uniquely challenging about making RF lenses, so they are cranking those out right and left. But they just don't have the technology ready for release yet to give people a truly pro quality mirrorless."

It's nice to have lens design experts in a forum where you wouldn't expect them. In this case I'd guess it's an expert from Nikon or Sony because their lens quality and selection is far superior and they turn them out every month. Or maybe I got this wrong, perhaps it's a former lens designer from Canon who's got an axe to grind and wishes to put Canon down since his superior ideas were being rejected and they just were not worthy of his services, so he jumped ship. I'd be interested in hearing what credentials we are talking about here. Some sample designs would go a long way in clearing this up. :confused:

Jack
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
Jul 21, 2010
24,546
1,981
Ten years ago we all would have killed for a camera like the R. But, today it's lackluster enough that it's seen as an unacceptable hindrance to taking good photos.
I don’t find it a hindrance at all, in the use cases for which I bought it. Honestly, I think if anyone finds any current ILC an ‘unacceptable hindrance to taking good photos’, the problem is not with the camera.
 

Jack Douglas

CR for the Humour
Apr 10, 2013
6,088
1,024
Alberta, Canada
I think the technology needs to evolve to the point where there are no hindrances to overcome and every one of us who are not the greatest photographers will have artificial intelligence cameras that take perfect photos using robots. Doesn't that sound like utopia? Get rid of the challenges and we'll all be sooooo happy. And then we can get on with other things rather than wasting our time and efforts on photography with lack lustre cameras.

Sadly, this mode of thinking just removes the pleasure one derives from one's accomplishments. I'm with Neoro on this; my problem is not the camera or the lenses.

Jack
 

unfocused

EOS 5D SR
Jul 20, 2010
4,874
1,133
65
Springfield, IL
www.mgordoncommunications.com
...But, today, after watching yet another video, this one with Jared Polin comparing the 5D IV to the EOS R, I went ahead and ordered an R with a 50mm...

...Maybe I'll love it and eat a little crow for speaking out so negatively about the lack of a pro mirrorless with those lenses out there. Fair enough! Or maybe I'll slap myself in the forehead for ordering something that wasn't right for me...
I don't think you will regret your decision. I now use the R for all my portrait work. I have never been an AFMA type of guy, so the benefits of having a camera where I can put the focus point right on the eye and know it will be sharp is fantastic.

Using a mirrorless camera is definitely an adjustment and there is a learning curve, but putting a little effort in will pay off. Is it a perfect all-around camera? No. But neither are the 1Dx II or the 5D IV. Buying now means you benefit from not paying an early adopter's penalty. Even if another model were to come out tomorrow, I'd want to wait another nine months or a year for the price to settle down, so in the meantime, know you have a very good camera and can enjoy giving Canon all your money for lenses that will last you for at least a decade and maybe another 20 years.

Camera bodies come and go, so there will be plenty of opportunities in the future to upgrade if you feel the need to, and you won't feel pressured to make a quick decision when your ideal body arrives on the scene.

Sorry if I've been a bit harsh in some of my responses. I'm trying to learn to be as respectful on the internet as I try to be in real life, but don't always hit that goal.
 

unfocused

EOS 5D SR
Jul 20, 2010
4,874
1,133
65
Springfield, IL
www.mgordoncommunications.com
I think the technology needs to evolve to the point where there are no hindrances to overcome and every one of us who are not the greatest photographers will have artificial intelligence cameras that take perfect photos using robots. Doesn't that sound like utopia? Get rid of the challenges and we'll all be sooooo happy. And then we can get on with other things rather than wasting our time and efforts on photography with lack lustre cameras.

Sadly, this mode of thinking just removes the pleasure one derives from one's accomplishments. I'm with Neoro on this; my problem is not the camera or the lenses.

Jack
So true. If I want a "perfect" picture, there are millions of them available on the internet. The real joy of photography comes in taking a stupid, mechanical device that sees and treats everything the same and somehow beating it into submission so that the final image reflects a unique vision. Doubt I will ever get there, but it adds meaning to my life to keep trying.
 

bhf3737

---
Sep 9, 2015
426
391
Calgary, Canada
www.flickr.com
On the other side of things, I got to play with an R yesterday, and I found some things frustrating about it (apparently my nose kept sending the autofocus point to the bottom of the frame, but somehow touching the screen in the center wouldn't send it back unless I held the camera far away from my face). But I am aware that those very things are customizable.
[...]
Sure, you can customize that easily by just selecting which part of the back screen you want to be touch sensitive.
Or a handy solution that I have is to set the video record (red) button on top to send the focus point to center by just pressing it when in photo mode.
 
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Jack Douglas

CR for the Humour
Apr 10, 2013
6,088
1,024
Alberta, Canada
Exactly, the more perfect the camera the more "technically perfect" the photos.

Those who take the truly outstanding photos will always be those who have the greatest skill, and an eye for what is most impressive, or like me, once in a blue moon they will get lucky and bathe in the praise for a moment. I love it when I'm there at the right moment to capture something that's going on that most people never experience but let's say I'm quite ticked when I flub it as often happens. I'm the problem, not my gear.

For example, I complain about lighting and the high ISO I've been "forced to use" and then I look twice and see that there was absolutely no need for the high shutter speed , and I kick myself. Why didn't I make a quick shutter speed change in that moment!?:(

Jack
 
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Mar 14, 2012
2,283
159
I love the 5D IV, and I might get another one. I don't mind buying new when they are discounted on Amazon, lately as low as $2400 USD (but the deal has passed).

But the ef 50mm 1.2 is not for me. Just doesn't measure up in IQ, and working around focus shift is a deal breaker. I had the 85mm 1.2L II, and I probably should have kept it, but the allure of IS on the 85mm 1.4L prompted me to switch. I like this 85mm 1.4L, but it lacks in the punch and drama I liked in the 1.2. BUT, now the even BETTER RF 85mm 1.2 is calling my name... o_O

For a portrait photographer, these are important lenses. So, with the RF lenses out there, I do find it frustrating that Canon has neither a pro body for them, nor a clearly articulated plan for when and what type of Rf body they will release next. Perhaps you don't find it a problem, and that's fine.

But, today, after watching yet another video, this one with Jared Polin comparing the 5D IV to the EOS R, I went ahead and ordered an R with a 50mm. Based on what I've read on this forum, and countless reviews and videos, for all its shortcomings, the R does work very well for portraits, perhaps yielding an even better AF hit rate than the venerable 5DIV for such use.

Maybe I'll love it and eat a little crow for speaking out so negatively about the lack of a pro mirrorless with those lenses out there. Fair enough! Or maybe I'll slap myself in the forehead for ordering something that wasn't right for me.

In any event, Canon doesn't seem to be in a big hurry to tell me what they are up to; so, I've made my decision to start using that glass. Chalk it up to GAS!

In the end, I'm grateful to all the members of Canon Rumors for their sharing of opinions, advice, and techniques. Even those who say, "Love it or leave it!"
I don't find that the R replaces the 5D4, but it definitely replaced my backup body, the 5D3. 5D4 still has GPS, better battery life and is easier to use for sports, but I prefer the R for portraits because the AF is more accurate and it has better coverage. It fully takes advantage of the new RF glass but also AFs EF glass better. The thing holding the R back is tracking AF (hopefully fixed with the upcoming firmware update), but also EVF lag during bursts, which is why I still prefer the 5D4 for bursts.

I'm straddling both EF/RF ecosystems now, and I'm hoping that the new MP R monster will have GPS, and a frame rate at least as good as the 5D4 and less EVF lag/blackout/freeze. If it does, then I'll transition fully over the RF ecosystem. Even without GPS and a 2nd card slot, I'd replace the 5D4 with the new high MP R as long as the EVF can keep up with sports.

I've used all the RF glass except the RF 85 (waiting for DS version), and they are excellent. The RF 35mm less so, but it's not L and fills the niche of a small walk-around lens. I was going to wait for a R body that provides a better sports experience before looking into the RF 15-35/24-70 but the lower prices on Canonpricewatch tempted me.

It's been about a year since the R ecosystem was introduced, and having confusion in the transition is understandable. However, if the high R MP body is released this year/early next year and the pro (1DX) R is released in 2021 (CR reported prototypes are being evaluated), then the 3-year transition would have been relatively fast. I hope to have a try with the M6 II tomorrow to see how the EVF/sports tracking improved. Jared and other reviewers remarked that it improved significantly. If is has, then I have high hopes that the high MP R will replace the 5D4.
 

SteveC

M50 & T6i
Sep 3, 2019
119
61
Sure, you can customize that easily by just selecting which part of the back screen you want to be touch sensitive.
Or a handy solution that I have is to set the video record (red) button on top to send the focus point to center by just pressing it when in photo mode.
That's not a bad idea.

On some models/brands, that video button actually starts recording, even if you're just taking stills. If that's not the case on the R then it's an utterly useless button while taking stills, and there's no downside to assigning it. (Given that getting focus to work the way I want it to and quickly is my ongoing hardest-to-learn thing, this is fantastic.)

My point and shoot is a Lumix (best camera I could find at the time that would fit in my shirt pocket), and I was overjoyed to realize I could use the Trash Can button for something else. It literally has NO function while you're not flipping through your pictures, so I was giving up zilch.
 

YuengLinger

EOR R
Dec 20, 2012
2,426
480
Southeastern USA
I don't find that the R replaces the 5D4, but it definitely replaced my backup body, the 5D3...
Thanks. This is where I'm headed. The 5D III was my first FF camera, and the best I had ever used when I bought it. Even when I got the 5D IV, I was very fond of the III; but the more I used the IV and saw how many more keepers I was getting with quickly moving subjects, and how "primitive" Live View was in the III, the more I began to think of getting a second 5D IV. And then along came the Rf lenses with the release of the EOS R. Crafty Canon.
 

YuengLinger

EOR R
Dec 20, 2012
2,426
480
Southeastern USA
After pulling the purchase trigger, I came across this video. It's a Canon promo, sure enough, but it holds out the promise of very nearly the type of images I'm hoping for with the new rf 50mm 1.2L. (I'm no Lindsey Adler(!), but I've enjoyed all of her books. She is a very good teacher.)

 

koenkooi

EOS 7D MK II
Feb 25, 2015
429
254
[..]

I'm straddling both EF/RF ecosystems now, and I'm hoping that the new MP R monster will have GPS, and a frame rate at least as good as the 5D4 and less EVF lag/blackout/freeze. If it does, then I'll transition fully over the RF ecosystem. Even without GPS and a 2nd card slot, I'd replace the 5D4 with the new high MP R as long as the EVF can keep up with sports.
[..]
I'm hoping for GPS as well, but since Canon crippled GP-E2 support in the R and RP by removing support for the digital compass I don't have high hopes for that. Having said that, the GPS function through the Canon Connect app works better than expected. I'm still logging a track seperately as backup and take pictures with my phone from time to time to be able to interpolate and fix screw ups.

And if you're using multiple cameras, don't forget to manually sync the time, the Camera Connect app won't do that over bluetooth and only manually over wifi.
 
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shunsai

EOS RP
Oct 15, 2011
200
75
I've had several opportunities to play with the R since its release in the past year. This past weekend I had a chance to use it extensively in the field alongside my 5D4. It's a good camera, perhaps better than the 5D4 in many important ways. I definitely prefer the autofocus capabilities of the R better, and really look forward to what the new firmware will offer. I'm a big fan of the control ring on the RF lenses and lens adapter. I hesitated on the 5D4 when I learned it still wasn't going to have a flip screen, so that is a major plus for the R for me. But for me, none of those pluses are enough to keep me satisfied for another 4 years. I'm seriously tempted to go ahead and get the R, as I have been since it was first announced. It's a very good camera. But at this point, it just is not significantly better enough than the 5D4. So for now, it remains not the camera for me.

I'm completely in agreement with you- as a 5D4 owner, waiting for the next RF body is very frustrating. I'm sure you'll enjoy the R. I hope you'll be able to enjoy it for what it is and not be disappointed by what it is not.
 
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Mar 14, 2012
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I've had several opportunities to play with the R since its release in the past year. This past weekend I had a chance to use it extensively in the field alongside my 5D4. It's a good camera, perhaps better than the 5D4 in many important ways. I definitely prefer the autofocus capabilities of the R better, and really look forward to what the new firmware will offer. I'm a big fan of the control ring on the RF lenses and lens adapter. I hesitated on the 5D4 when I learned it still wasn't going to have a flip screen, so that is a major plus for the R for me. But for me, none of those pluses are enough to keep me satisfied for another 4 years. I'm seriously tempted to go ahead and get the R, as I have been since it was first announced. It's a very good camera. But at this point, it just is not significantly better enough than the 5D4. So for now, it remains not the camera for me.

I'm completely in agreement with you- as a 5D4 owner, waiting for the next RF body is very frustrating. I'm sure you'll enjoy the R. I hope you'll be able to enjoy it for what it is and not be disappointed by what it is not.
I tried the R with the new firmware a few days ago at a Canon event, and it is a significant improvement. And yes, I forgot to bring my own card, so I don't have any sample shots... although they're doing another Canon event this Saturday... The new firmware detects faces better and can do it when they are smaller in the frame. It was also fun playing with the RF 85, 24-70 IS and 15-35. They also had the 90D and the M6 II. Of all the products, the M6 II surprised me the most. It can shoot at 14 frames/sec, which makes it easier to track moving targets than the R. I don't know about BIF, but I'd love to have that frame rate in the R -- it would make tracking soccer players much easier during bursts. The R at 14 frames/sec would allow me to fully transition away from EOS bodies to R bodies only.

The other thing to remember is that the R was introduced with 5DIV IQ at a lower price. Canon wasn't able to produce something higher at the time, and I think that's what's frustrating because a segment of the population that would have transitioned to R only bodies are stuck using both EF/RF bodies for the time being. 2021 sounds right for a "pro" R if the "pro" R is the mirrorless version of the 1DX2. Nikon doesn't have a mirrorless body to replace the D5 either. I'm waiting to see what the Canon mirrorless to replace the 5DS/5DSR will be like. If it minimizes the EVF freeze during bursts and has a framerate that at least matches the 5D4, then I'll be selling the 5D4 and going only with the mirrorless bodies.
 

richperson

I'm New Here
Sep 6, 2019
9
17
I'm kind of settling in on waiting a while for the next R body that I want. I need good high ISO performance much more than more megapixels, so it sounds like I need to hunker down with my R for that time while I wait. Makes me glad I bought the R now instead of holding out for a body that likely won't be here for two more years.
 
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shunsai

EOS RP
Oct 15, 2011
200
75
If it ... has a framerate that at least matches the 5D4, then I'll be selling the 5D4 and going only with the mirrorless bodies.
Yeah, I'm kind of in the same boat. 70+ megapixels seems like overkill, but I would adjust. I would add though- if it has a matching or higher framerate, GPS, dual card slots, and a few other bells and whistles, then I'll most likely buy in.

I'm not actually willing to lose any of the features I've come to rely on from the IV, and I kinda think an upgrade means you shouldn't have to.
 
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Aussie shooter

@brett.guy.photography
Dec 6, 2016
406
397
Yeah, I'm kind of in the same boat. 70+ megapixels seems like overkill, but I would adjust. I would add though- if it has a matching or higher framerate, GPS, dual card slots, and a few other bells and whistles, then I'll most likely buy in.

I'm not actually willing to lose any of the features I've come to rely on from the IV, and I kinda think an upgrade means you shouldn't have to.
If it has all that stuff then I doubt I will be able to afford it......or the new computer I would require to work the files :( . But geez I would want it
 
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CanonFanBoy

EOS 5D SR
Jan 28, 2015
3,720
1,293
Irving, Texas
Ten years ago we all would have killed for a camera like the R. But, today it's lackluster enough that it's seen as an unacceptable hindrance to taking good photos.
Goodness gracious. :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: I really am amazed at assumptions being played out as facts on these threads... mostly by people who have not used the camera or lenses. Maybe you have used them, butiIf a person cannot take a good photo with the R, the problem is not the R.
 
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CanonFanBoy

EOS 5D SR
Jan 28, 2015
3,720
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That's not a bad idea.

On some models/brands, that video button actually starts recording, even if you're just taking stills. If that's not the case on the R then it's an utterly useless button while taking stills, and there's no downside to assigning it. (Given that getting focus to work the way I want it to and quickly is my ongoing hardest-to-learn thing, this is fantastic.)

My point and shoot is a Lumix (best camera I could find at the time that would fit in my shirt pocket), and I was overjoyed to realize I could use the Trash Can button for something else. It literally has NO function while you're not flipping through your pictures, so I was giving up zilch.
Since I do absolutely no video, I mapped the video button to magnify for when I use my MF lenses. Got the idea from @Viggo.
 
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