Would you buy more EF lenses if new FF mirrorless uses a new lens mount?

Apr 23, 2018
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to me *and millions of other potential customers* mirrorfree cameras that deliver the same functionality with less slapping, vibration noise and in in a smaller and LESS EXPENSIVE package ... is a paradigm shift. I will buy the mirrorfree option. And millions of others too. Mirrorslapping is doomed, like it or not. And it wil NOT take 10 billion years. ;D
 
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Jul 21, 2010
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fullstop said:
to me *and millions of other potential customers* mirrorfree cameras that deliver the same functionality with less slapping, vibration noise and in in a smaller and LESS EXPENSIVE package ... is a paradigm shift. I will buy the mirrorfree option. And millions of others too. Mirrorslapping is doomed, like it or not. And it wil NOT take 10 billion years. ;D

A digital interchangeable lens camera with a mirror versus a digital interchangeable lens camera without a mirror. Not even close to, "A fundamental change in approach or underlying assumptions."

As even you state, the functionality is essentially identical. Less vibration…clearly not fundamental. Less noise…we've covered this, people generally leave the artificial shutter sound on anyway, clearly not fundamental. What is your evidence that mirrorless cameras are LESS EXPENSIVE, by the way?

The fact that you would buy one type of ILC and not the other does not make it a paradigm shift.
 
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unfocused

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YuengLinger said:
Keith_Reeder said:
YuengLinger said:
I think readers will see that I'm genuinely seeking a discussion about EF being replaced.

Nope, you're coming across an obsessive, to the point of trolling, about your current bête noire.

Any such discussion would be an utterly pointless speculation-fest, the only purpose of which would be to fuel your histrionic paranoia about an unknowable future.


...All compelling topics to somebody, surely, but within the context of Canon, a new FF lens mount is a pretty big deal. They only come along every 30 years or so.

...but I think if Canon has a huge hit with mirrorless, the native EF mount will be phased out sooner rather than later...

...What is it about the topic question that set you off?

I can only speak for myself. It's not the topic so much as it is your continuously repeating the same worries over and over again even after others have patiently and rationally explained that the concerns are unfounded. This isn't a discussion. It's people responding to your concerns and you constantly returning to the same concerns over and over again, despite everyone's best efforts to talk you off the ledge.

As others have explained, comparing an additional lens mount to the wholesale conversion from FD to EF is not valid. If you can't understand the difference after so many people have explained it...well...you probably never will.

I don't understand why you can't comprehend that EF lenses are going to remain the core lens product for Canon for many many years (decades at least) and that the niche market mirrorless lenses are unlikely to extend beyond a handful of walkaround zooms and maybe a couple of small primes. That any EF lens you buy today will always work on a Canon mirrorless or DSLR camera.

I feel like we are talking to Eeyore. You seem deadset on looking at the cloudy side no matter how bright the sun is.
 
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YuengLinger

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unfocused said:
YuengLinger said:
Keith_Reeder said:
YuengLinger said:
I think readers will see that I'm genuinely seeking a discussion about EF being replaced.

Nope, you're coming across an obsessive, to the point of trolling, about your current bête noire.

Any such discussion would be an utterly pointless speculation-fest, the only purpose of which would be to fuel your histrionic paranoia about an unknowable future.


...All compelling topics to somebody, surely, but within the context of Canon, a new FF lens mount is a pretty big deal. They only come along every 30 years or so.

...but I think if Canon has a huge hit with mirrorless, the native EF mount will be phased out sooner rather than later...

...What is it about the topic question that set you off?

I can only speak for myself. It's not the topic so much as it is your continuously repeating the same worries over and over again even after others have patiently and rationally explained that the concerns are unfounded. This isn't a discussion. It's people responding to your concerns and you constantly returning to the same concerns over and over again, despite everyone's best efforts to talk you off the ledge.

As others have explained, comparing an additional lens mount to the wholesale conversion from FD to EF is not valid. If you can't understand the difference after so many people have explained it...well...you probably never will.

I don't understand why you can't comprehend that EF lenses are going to remain the core lens product for Canon for many many years (decades at least) and that the niche market mirrorless lenses are unlikely to extend beyond a handful of walkaround zooms and maybe a couple of small primes. That any EF lens you buy today will always work on a Canon mirrorless or DSLR camera.

I feel like we are talking to Eeyore. You seem deadset on looking at the cloudy side no matter how bright the sun is.

Actually, you are speaking for Keith_Reeder--and you are repeating yourself.

I can "comprehend" your hope, your belief that the EF is here to stay for "decades at least." But I don't have that power of prophecy in an era where cameras are, for a huge part of the market now, becoming technology commodities. dSLR sales have been steadily declining the past five years (though in part because the market has been saturated). I think they are down about 25% industry-wide.

You can't separate the EF mount's future from that of Canon dSLR sales. How could you predict what Canon will decide to do if the downward trend continues?

Yes, in the past two months, with the prospect of a new mount coming, I've brought the topic up in a few other threads, but only in a handful of posts. This thread is focused on the topic, and there have been some great insights. This is not "continuously repeating the same worries over and over again."

I'm no forum saint, for sure. I reply with snark from time to time. But you would be much more persuasive, if that is your intention, without resorting so frequenlty to outraged dismissiveness, personal insults, and accusations of trolling.

You may totally disagree with the stats and conclusions of the links below. Fine. And yes, I can understand that if you are invested in L lenses, it's not fun to think about their value declining rapidly, and repair services winding down.

But it's a valid topic, it's relevant, and it's interesting.

https://www.diyphotography.net/camera-sales-report-2016-lowest-sales-ever-dslrs-mirrorless/

https://petapixel.com/2018/03/14/death-dslrs-near/
 
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Apr 23, 2018
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YuengLinger said:
dSLR sales have been steadily declining the past five years (though in part because the market has been saturated). I think they are down about 25% industry-wide.
https://petapixel.com/2018/03/14/death-dslrs-near/

DSLR sales have HALFED from 2012 to 2017. And they will really PLUMMET now, when mirrorless lineups with APS-C and FF sensors become available.

EF mount will definitely NOT be around for decades. I expect the last Canon mirrorslapper to be produced by 2025. Not many more new/ "updated" EF lenses, once EF-X is launched. Well, maybe Mk. III paintjobs. :)
 
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Don Haines

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neuroanatomist said:
What is your evidence that mirrorless cameras are LESS EXPENSIVE, by the way?

Basically, it is the same thing, except you remove the mirror, AF unit, and optical viewfinder from it, and replace it with an EVF.... add a driver port to the main board, some software, and you are good to go!

It should be cheaper to produce and install the EVF than the other stuff....

That said, when you look at the cost to make the body, the sensor the motherboard, all the associated electronics/buttons/switches/etc... that the cost savings is probably one or two percent.... but you also have to pay for the R+D....

There is an old saying; A difference that makes no difference is no difference at all.
 
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Don Haines

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fullstop said:
YuengLinger said:
dSLR sales have been steadily declining the past five years (though in part because the market has been saturated). I think they are down about 25% industry-wide.
https://petapixel.com/2018/03/14/death-dslrs-near/

DSLR sales have HALFED from 2012 to 2017. And they will really PLUMMET now, when mirrorless lineups with APS-C and FF sensors become available.

EF mount will definitely NOT be around for decades. I expect the last Canon mirrorslapper to be produced by 2025. Not many more new/ "updated" EF lenses, once EF-X is launched. Well, maybe Mk. III paintjobs. :)

Why do you assume that Mirrorless requires a new mount?
 
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YuengLinger

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Don Haines said:
fullstop said:
YuengLinger said:
dSLR sales have been steadily declining the past five years (though in part because the market has been saturated). I think they are down about 25% industry-wide.
https://petapixel.com/2018/03/14/death-dslrs-near/

DSLR sales have HALFED from 2012 to 2017. And they will really PLUMMET now, when mirrorless lineups with APS-C and FF sensors become available.

EF mount will definitely NOT be around for decades. I expect the last Canon mirrorslapper to be produced by 2025. Not many more new/ "updated" EF lenses, once EF-X is launched. Well, maybe Mk. III paintjobs. :)

Why do you assume that Mirrorless requires a new mount?

Don, as you can see from my posts, I'm hoping that, somehow, Canon can continue with EF on the new generation of FF mirrorless.

Are you assuming FF mirrorless will not have a new mount?

I didn't start reading articles such as these in the links below until unfocused accused me of being paranoid and worried about nothing for broaching the topic!

https://techcrunch.com/2018/07/09/canon-and-nikon-are-reportedly-both-planning-full-frame-mirrorless-cameras-this-year/

https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2018/7/25/17611108/nikon-full-frame-mirrorless-camera-system-announced

And several others assume that a new FF mirrorless will have a new mount. Seems like Nikon has already decided.
 
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Jul 21, 2010
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Don Haines said:
neuroanatomist said:
What is your evidence that mirrorless cameras are LESS EXPENSIVE, by the way?

Basically, it is the same thing, except you remove the mirror, AF unit, and optical viewfinder from it, and replace it with an EVF.... add a driver port to the main board, some software, and you are good to go!

It should be cheaper to produce and install the EVF than the other stuff....

That said, when you look at the cost to make the body, the sensor the motherboard, all the associated electronics/buttons/switches/etc... that the cost savings is probably one or two percent.... but you also have to pay for the R+D....

There is an old saying; A difference that makes no difference is no difference at all.

At issue is people buying these cameras, and in that context it's retail cost that matters, not production costs. Any evidence that MILCs cost less that roughly equivalent DSLRs?
 
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Jul 21, 2010
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fullstop said:
DSLR sales have HALFED from 2012 to 2017. And they will really PLUMMET now, when mirrorless lineups with APS-C and FF sensors become available.

What happened to MILC sales over that period? They fell, until 2017 when they finally managed to climb above 2012 levels (with the help of the post-quake rebound).


fullstop said:
EF mount will definitely NOT be around for decades. I expect the last Canon mirrorslapper to be produced by 2025. Not many more new/ "updated" EF lenses, once EF-X is launched. Well, maybe Mk. III paintjobs. :)

Canon kept on releasing new EF-S lenses after EF-M launched. But sure, it'll be different with FF. ::) ::)

AvTvM, allow me to introduce you to Facts. It appears you two haven't met.
 
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Don Haines

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YuengLinger said:
Don Haines said:
fullstop said:
YuengLinger said:
dSLR sales have been steadily declining the past five years (though in part because the market has been saturated). I think they are down about 25% industry-wide.
https://petapixel.com/2018/03/14/death-dslrs-near/

DSLR sales have HALFED from 2012 to 2017. And they will really PLUMMET now, when mirrorless lineups with APS-C and FF sensors become available.

EF mount will definitely NOT be around for decades. I expect the last Canon mirrorslapper to be produced by 2025. Not many more new/ "updated" EF lenses, once EF-X is launched. Well, maybe Mk. III paintjobs. :)

Why do you assume that Mirrorless requires a new mount?

Don, as you can see from my posts, I'm hoping that, somehow, Canon can continue with EF on the new generation of FF mirrorless.

Are you assuming FF mirrorless will not have a new mount?

I didn't start reading articles such as these in the links below until unfocused accused me of being paranoid and worried about nothing for broaching the topic!

https://techcrunch.com/2018/07/09/canon-and-nikon-are-reportedly-both-planning-full-frame-mirrorless-cameras-this-year/

https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2018/7/25/17611108/nikon-full-frame-mirrorless-camera-system-announced

And several others assume that a new FF mirrorless will have a new mount. Seems like Nikon has already decided.

My assumption is that there will be both.

I believe that Canon will continue with high end FF mirrorless cameras that have the EF mount and a similar form factor to today’s DSLRs, and it will be the best quality, features, and ergonomics.

I also believe that they will come out with a lower level line of FF mirrorless, which will have a short flange Mount and a limited number of smaller and slower lenses.

for medium to longer focal lengths, and fast lenses, you have no real size savings and you may actually make image quality worse. What we will have (my prediction) is the FF equivalent of the M series and the 7D/80D....

Rather than design to the weaknesses of one mount or the other, design to the strengths of both.... those who want big cameras and lenses and the ultimate in quality are happy, and those who wish to sacrifice a bit of controls/speed for size are happy
 
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neuroanatomist said:
Don Haines said:
neuroanatomist said:
What is your evidence that mirrorless cameras are LESS EXPENSIVE, by the way?

Basically, it is the same thing, except you remove the mirror, AF unit, and optical viewfinder from it, and replace it with an EVF.... add a driver port to the main board, some software, and you are good to go!

It should be cheaper to produce and install the EVF than the other stuff....

That said, when you look at the cost to make the body, the sensor the motherboard, all the associated electronics/buttons/switches/etc... that the cost savings is probably one or two percent.... but you also have to pay for the R+D....

There is an old saying; A difference that makes no difference is no difference at all.

At issue is people buying these cameras, and in that context it's retail cost that matters, not production costs. Any evidence that MILCs cost less that roughly equivalent DSLRs?

A MILC should cost less, once demand levels out, RD is covered etc. I would think it would be more than one or two percent, but then I have never bought and installed a mirror.

Some versions may cost more. When the first M3 was released the biggest complaint was a view finder. Then they add one and along comes the viewfinder on the M5, again I have never bought the components inside the M5's view finder but I would bet the digital components cost more than a mirror.
 
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fullstop said:
EF mount will definitely NOT be around for decades. I expect the last Canon mirrorslapper to be produced by 2025. Not many more new/ "updated" EF lenses, once EF-X is launched. Well, maybe Mk. III paintjobs. :)

I expect my EF lenses to be around for decades, except that I'm not likely to be around for many more decades.
 
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Don Haines

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takesome1 said:
neuroanatomist said:
Don Haines said:
neuroanatomist said:
What is your evidence that mirrorless cameras are LESS EXPENSIVE, by the way?

Basically, it is the same thing, except you remove the mirror, AF unit, and optical viewfinder from it, and replace it with an EVF.... add a driver port to the main board, some software, and you are good to go!

It should be cheaper to produce and install the EVF than the other stuff....

That said, when you look at the cost to make the body, the sensor the motherboard, all the associated electronics/buttons/switches/etc... that the cost savings is probably one or two percent.... but you also have to pay for the R+D....

There is an old saying; A difference that makes no difference is no difference at all.

At issue is people buying these cameras, and in that context it's retail cost that matters, not production costs. Any evidence that MILCs cost less that roughly equivalent DSLRs?

A MILC should cost less, once demand levels out, RD is covered etc. I would think it would be more than one or two percent, but then I have never bought and installed a mirror.

Some versions may cost more. When the first M3 was released the biggest complaint was a view finder. Then they add one and along comes the viewfinder on the M5, again I have never bought the components inside the M5's view finder but I would bet the digital components cost more than a mirror.

How many percent difference is anyone’s guess..... but it is not going to be $999 like some people are claiming. Not when a 6D2 is twice that....
 
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Apr 23, 2018
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without access to makers' cost accounting, we dont have solid evidence for cost of product - Mirrorslappers and mirrorfree cameras. but some logic and educated guesses are still valid: if mirrorfree APS-C cameras like EOS M50 or Fuji X-T100 can be sold retail for 549 - including reasonably good electronic viewfinders and sensor + functionality at least on par with an EOS 80D then:
* mirrorfree is very likely less costly to produce than mirrorslappers
* and an FF version for 999 retail would be economically NOT "unrealistic"
only difference is sensor and a slightly larger body shell. for 550 difference retail this should easily be covered.

it will remain "unrealistic" that we ever get it, if we dont vehemently demand it, but rather continuosly apologize current price levels and some are happy to consider 2 grand for a lower middle-class camera (6d class) or 3.5 grand for upper middleclass (5d class) and 1 grand or more for any decent prime lens and 2 grand plus for any decent zoom lens "a bargain offer".
 
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Ozarker

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stevelee said:
I’m likely to last a few more years, but probably not a few more decades myself, so I’m not much worried.

I'd be happy to last at least 3 more decades. The problem is that they seem to pass faster and faster as I age. Maybe it is because we remember less and less each week? Whatever it is, it sucks. :'(
 
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Ozarker

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takesome1 said:
stevelee said:
CanonFanBoy said:
neuroanatomist said:
takesome1 said:
So you think the same connection used to exchange data with a 30 year old design has no room for improvement?

If I want to electronically transmit a 7 letter word (for example, asinine or foolish), does a gigabit ethernet connection offer meaningful benefit over dial-up? No.

Nobody does it better than Neuro. Nobody.

+1

Sure, Neuro is great at transmitting 7 letter words. With over 22,000 posts this is a well established fact.

Yes. But you know? He's so adept at it that even if I were the victim I couldn't help but be in awe, and so honored I could never take offense. I mean, it is so smooth. It's like getting ripped open with a hatchet and then sewn back up by some Beverly Hills plastic surgeon to the stars. Then we're new enhanced boobs and nobody is the wiser. ;) Like waking up from the anesthetic and not even noticing one's soul has been ripped out by the roots and crushed under dirty sneakers. Yeah. It's like that.
 
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Ozarker

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takesome1 said:
neuroanatomist said:
Don Haines said:
neuroanatomist said:
What is your evidence that mirrorless cameras are LESS EXPENSIVE, by the way?

Basically, it is the same thing, except you remove the mirror, AF unit, and optical viewfinder from it, and replace it with an EVF.... add a driver port to the main board, some software, and you are good to go!

It should be cheaper to produce and install the EVF than the other stuff....

That said, when you look at the cost to make the body, the sensor the motherboard, all the associated electronics/buttons/switches/etc... that the cost savings is probably one or two percent.... but you also have to pay for the R+D....

There is an old saying; A difference that makes no difference is no difference at all.

At issue is people buying these cameras, and in that context it's retail cost that matters, not production costs. Any evidence that MILCs cost less that roughly equivalent DSLRs?

A MILC should cost less, once demand levels out, RD is covered etc. I would think it would be more than one or two percent, but then I have never bought and installed a mirror.

Some versions may cost more. When the first M3 was released the biggest complaint was a view finder. Then they add one and along comes the viewfinder on the M5, again I have never bought the components inside the M5's view finder but I would bet the digital components cost more than a mirror.

R&D is continuous. R&D never stops and doesn't necessarily cost less as the years pass. In my never humble opinion there wasn't a whole lot of new to do, making mirrorless. The tech is already there. Just a matter of rearranging the furniture.
 
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Ozarker

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YuengLinger said:
But I don't have that power of prophecy...

Whew! Finally, after X number of threads you've started on this topic... finally, you can stop now.

It was a nice run while it lasted. BTW: You stated that people who have a quiver of Canon L glass might be worried about a new mount and service winding down etc... and imply that is why they cannot stomach the "fact" that there will be a new mount. I think that is a little bit too far. I don't believe that to be the case.

The resistance is to your steadfast prognostication (your crystal ball, your prophetic declarations, your tea leaf reading, your seances, phrenology, etc.) that there has to be a new mount and that EF will be going away as though EF will be gone soon and that maybe we should think twice about buying EF glass.

Some of us honestly believe EF is here to stay for a long while. Some of us know that mirrorless design does not necessitate a thin flange mount no matter what your dogma.

When they state these honest beliefs you continue to hammer your fanatical thin mount mirrorless theology... thumping all the way. It's borish, and by now, it is trolling. So please, just stop. We'll all know soon enough.
 
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