5D3 & 600ex-rt + AF assist beam = slower focus

[RustyTheGeek]

Honestly, I find it very disappointing that up until now, I have never even considered focus assist to be a part of my photography. And I shoot a lot of indoor available light, indoor swimming, outdoor evening and night campouts, low light parties, campfire shots and all kinds of impossible situations. (With a 5Dc, 40D, 60D, etc.) Sure, I've had to switch to manual focus occasionally but all my cameras are several years old. Even still, I've never had the AF challenges I'm having with the 5D3. I noticed it almost immediately after I had been shooting for about 30 minutes. Hell, my wife even asked me about it when she borrowed my camera for a bit.

I love/hate the comment about a guest walking up and getting the shot right away with a Point and Shoot. That's priceless! And pathetic!! Ouch!

I use Canon 580 or 580-II flashes occasionally for wedding-like stuff (not weddings per se but still church sanctuary and church reception halls) but 90% of the time I am using a simple SunPak RD2000 with/without diffuser as fill indoors, outdoors, night and day. The RD2000 doesn't have a focus assist feature. It's never been much of an issue. I've never thought about it until now. Heck, now I want to play with focus assist more on my older cameras and see how well it works. I'd completely forgotten about it since my most common flash doesn't even support it.

So the 5D3 is literally holding me back. This issue is a real drag for me. Given the fact that the camera has been out 6 months and already has a firmware update released, I don't anticipate this problem being addressed for quite a while. The red viewfinder focus indicator issue seems to be the big deal at the moment. Heck, if the camera won't focus in the first place, who cares what the indicator does at that point?

 

[Sycotek]

Would be nice see them fix this problem - but with so many people raging and no word from canon on a fix it will more then likely be a 1D4 af assist bug - that doesnt exist.

I had 1DX and 5D3's all exhibit same issues with af assist and low light. Forgetting the 1Dx servo issue - the af assist through my reception/wedding photos killed canon for me, I don't have 2-3 sec per shot to wait.

Impacted my work substantially so had no option but to switch - sadly, but surprisingly eye opening (d4+d800 and about to get my second d4) to the point where you couldn't pay me to go back.

I still believe its the size of the af points being too small - great for handoff in servo but it impacts initial lock.

 

[RustyTheGeek]

Too small AF pts makes some sense. I'll sell it soon if nothing changes. I can always buy it again down the road if/when things improve. The pictures I have made are stellar but I don't normally shoot still adults, I shoot kids running around campfires, etc. What a huge disappointment. I've waited years for this upgrade (skipped the Mk II). Grrr! Maybe the 6D will be better??? Geez.

 

[RayValdez360]

It's is just the camera. I do club photography with a 7D and 5D3(once in awhile) . I don't have the issue with the 7d. I might spend tomorrow in the house messing with the AF point settings with my 5d and see what I find out. To the guy that mentioned spot focusing, the 5D3's manual supposedly mentions that it will be harder to focus with spot metering. That is definitely a tip off to small spots make AF assisted focusing harder to achieve. AS I mentioned in my thread, the 5D3 will actually focus faster with no AF assist in some situations. The 7D is the total opposite for me. I can barely auto focus a dark club without my flash attached to my 7D.

 

[Marsu42]

Bottom Line: My 5D3 low light focus performance SUCKS. Heck, my 5Dc focuses better in low light. Aaargh!!

As a potential 5d3 customer I am completely confused by this whole discussion, because it's now moved from slow lock with af assist (even with 600rt) to complaints about general bad low light af performance?!

So is the 5d3 now a capable wedding-event camera or isn't it because of these issues? How is it possible that many people seem to get it working, or are they simply lucky and their receptions were better lit?

If this is a problem and Canon cannot solve it (just like the non-working af indicators in servo, obviously they only will be added to the 1dx) I'm really considering either getting a much cheaper 5d2 or maybe the 6d that is esp. marketed as having better low light af than the "old" 5d3/1dx system.

 

[kpk1]

It happens to me too. So sad. I bought it (5D3) for its low light capabilities and I ended up with the old 5D2 in complete darkness. What a shame.

 

[Mehmetski]

I've shot the first clubgig with the 5dIII this weekend. The combo was 5DIII+24-70II+580EXII and the lag with the AF beam is really terrible. I've used Single Point AF and AF Expansion throughout the night with usually the center AF points selected, the outer edges weren't event doable. For still subjects it was OK and not that very frustrating but when you want to capture that spontaneous moment in which you require almost instant focus, it just can't deliver.
Indeed it is funny and a sad thing if you disable the AF-Beam on camera than it focuses much much faster!
5D2 is much better in this regard.

 

[Northstar]

In low light situations it helps to stay away from spot metering and af servo.....stick with one shot and eval and center point.

I rarely use flash on 5d3, but when I have used it I have had mixed results ...which leads me to believe that certain settings or combinations of settings might contribute to hunting and not acquiring focus issues.

 

[Viggo]

I noticed the same thing on the 1d X with the 580II, so i fixed it, how? Switched the assist beam off

I tried a on camera flash shot yesterday (very rare occasion) and I, almost of course, used One Shot, I mean I have no problem accepting that Ai doesn't work when I see nothing more than if my lens cap were on. But with one shot it focused and took the shot. Several actually with refocus all spot on. Sure it's not daylight fast, but at that black vf light and no light to accurately focus , 6 of 6 shots is reallyreally good. Used a 35 L which isn't supreme for lowlight although good.

 

[RustyTheGeek]

Bottom Line: My 5D3 low light focus performance SUCKS. Heck, my 5Dc focuses better in low light. Aaargh!!

As a potential 5d3 customer I am completely confused by this whole discussion, because it's now moved from slow lock with af assist (even with 600rt) to complaints about general bad low light af performance?!

When posting, I didn't take into account the distinction between of general slow low light AF lock and slow lock with AF assist. Let me clarify: If it won't consistently AF lock in low light, regardless of the reason, it sucks. It makes no difference to me. Whether the AF assist beam is enabled or not, mine is inconsistent and sucks.

So is the 5d3 now a capable wedding-event camera or isn't it because of these issues? How is it possible that many people seem to get it working, or are they simply lucky and their receptions were better lit?

Based on my performance so far and what I've read from others that actually shoot weddings all the time, I wouldn't trust it at a wedding. IMO, weddings are 'no failure' events. In my case, MY 5D3 camera currently isn't up to that task. However, some folks seem to report no trouble and think the 5D3 walks on the moon so I would love to go shoot with them some time and compare!! (See 'A Pro Friend's Experience' below...)

If this is a problem and Canon cannot solve it (just like the non-working af indicators in servo, obviously they only will be added to the 1dx) I'm really considering either getting a much cheaper 5d2 or maybe the 6d that is esp. marketed as having better low light af than the "old" 5d3/1dx system.

I was thinking the same thing but if the 1Dx and 5D3 exhibit a similar fundamental problem, what are the chances that the 6D won't also have trouble? I'm more than a little irritated that I've patiently waited all this time skipping the 5D2 only to entertain the idea of now selling the 5D3 and getting the 5D2 after all with whatever problems it has had for years. Wow. Sure glad I have loved my 5Dc so much. This is a hard reminder that it's the photographer that makes the picture, not the camera, that's for sure! (And a camera that isn't working well just gets in the way!)

For the record, My settings are typically...

- One Shot (rarely ever AI Focus or Servo)
- Center Point Focus (the way I've always shot on every camera)
- AF Assist Beam OFF (never use it anyway)
- Daylight, Fluorescent or Tungsten WB depending...
- Eval Metering mostly, rarely spot or center
- Shot Priority AF (not Release Priority)
- General Purpose AF Case (Case 1?)
- I usually have a RD2000 flash attached that has no AF Assist beam support, turned off or on depending...

I'll edit the list if I think of anything other setting that matters. However, a $3500 camera should AF well with any setting combination. I've also found that the lens matters too.

- 24-105L = Poor AF in Low Light
- 16-35L = ~OK AF in Low Light (not outstanding)
- 24-70L = ~OK AF in Low Light (not outstanding)
- 24/1.4-II = ~OK AF in Low Light (not outstanding)

A Pro Friend's Experience: I have a friend who is a 30+ year veteran pro, goes all over the world and shoots beautiful low light stuff all the time. She does Nat Geo level stuff. She has two 5D3 bodies she bought back in March and reports NO problems. She loves them. She teaches workshops. She understands photography well and knows her equipment. So if she is extremely happy, this can't be happening to her. I asked her specifically. No problems. For all I know, she may not even have the firmware update yet. I'll have to check sometime. She's in China right now on the way to India and I don't want to bug her any more.

I'm going to keep using this camera and get a feel for how bad it really is with different lenses. I think we all agree that it is frustratingly intermittent. However, the simple fact is that I'm not overwhelmingly loving it. I'm not blown away. I'm disappointed using it for what I shoot. Other folks that shoot controlled studio or outdoors may love it. Or they have a perfect copy perhaps?? So that's that. It's not a good start to my relationship with this camera. I buy camera bodies like cars and drive them until the wheels fall off. I don't upgrade every 6 months. It's not that this camera never works in low light, I just can't depend on it to work consistently. It's not a reliable tool I look forward to using yet. I'll do my best to make this thing work but eventually I'll invest in something else if necessary, another copy or another camera.

Sorry for the length of these posts, I'm just trying to get it all out there to help both myself and others get this sorted out.

Last Point: I buy cameras at this level so they will work for me rock solid so I can concentrate on shooting and make my shooting easier. If I wanted to tweak settings to trick the camera into achieving semi-OK performance, I would just get Rebels. 'nuff said.

 

[RustyTheGeek]

You know, it now occurs to me that perhaps the 6D is Canon's unspoken answer to the 5D3's low light AF problem. That may be why it has a different sensor and fewer AF points. Perhaps they are larger AF points and the center cross point is the magic point for low light performance. Hmmm....

 

[Marsu42]

I was thinking the same thing but if the 1Dx and 5D3 exhibit a similar fundamental problem, what are the chances that the 6D won't also have trouble?

... simply because of this:

Perhaps they are larger AF points and the center cross point is the magic point for low light performance. Hmmm....

Canon actually stated that one reason (except for marketing, that is) for them giving the 6d so few af points is that you need larger af points for better low light performance - and the 6d is supposed to be able to focus at 1/2 the light of 1dx/5d3 which is near darkness.

Smaller af points might be more accurate in good light and you can track better with many of them, af points expansion is nice - but now we might know the tradeoff.

I'm very interested to see the first real (non-"hands on") 6d review and if the performance with or w/o af assist is better. For me, if I shell out €3000 for a camera body it has to be 110% reliable for what I intend to do - maybe it's better to have the small 6d that does focus than a 5d3 that is beaten by p&s cameras... the 5d2 is not a real alternative because the specs say its af stops working at much more lit conditions? And all that with the d800 @2400€ and the d600 @1800€, harrrrgnnnn...

Hope more folks report their experiences with the 5d3 so we might be able to figure out the exact problems - before I actually do buy my first ff body :-o

 

[RustyTheGeek]

Yeah, by way of "posting progression" (the dreaded 2nd stage of "talking to myself") I sort of commented my way into a possible answer to this, didn't I? :

Funny thing is that I was originally concentrating on purchasing the 6D and I did an impulse buy on a steal deal for the 5D3. Now I guess I am holding out hope that the 6D will be the best camera for my needs instead - low/available light photography. Fingers Crossed!! I hate to give up CF media though. CF is a MUCH better media design. There's a reason why it is still used in the faster/better bodies. Having both in the 5D3 was really nice.

 

[Northstar]

Rusty..

- One Shot (rarely ever AI Focus or Servo)
- Center Point Focus (the way I've always shot on every camera)
- AF Assist Beam OFF (never use it anyway)
- Daylight, Fluorescent or Tungsten WB depending...
- Eval Metering mostly, rarely spot or center
- Shot Priority AF (not Release Priority)
- General Purpose AF Case (Case 1?)
- I usually have a RD2000 flash attached that has no AF Assist beam support, turned off or on depending.

..

http://www.sunpak.jp/english/products/rd2000/rendou.html

Rd2000 compatible?
Have you set the AF to cross type points only?
Have you tried middle shot priority NOT focus OR release, but in the middle of the two?
Have you cleared all settings and reset them to factory default? (Try starting from scratch)
Do you ever do available low light shooting without a flash attached? (Meaning, no flash attached to the camera)
Highlight tone priority-OFF
Shadow optimization - OFF

In low light, I have not had these issues you mention with my 5d3...I have had af issues when a flash is attached. Of course "low light shooting" is subjective....my low light definition is different from yours. However, I distinctly remember a low light AF / iso experience recently where i was at a park shooting the kids and the sun had set 10 full minutes earlier, and I had no problem locking on to kids running around, no hunting. That is the level of low light shooting that my 5d3 has...just for your info.

Edit...and I should add that I live in a heavily wooded area...10 minutes after sunset is pretty dark.( compared to the desert or coast)
Good luck...just trying to help..

 

[Steven_urwin]

Here to put this one to bed...

I owe a 7D and a 5D Mark 3. I shoot with a 580EX2 flash. I am the in-photographer for several nightclubs, including one of the O2 academy venues in the UK.

This problems exists. FULL STOP.

If I'm doing a portrait of an artist, DJ, or just patrons of a venue. I will shoot with my 5D3 (I prefer the camera) If it's spontaneity that I'm trying to capture, I revert back to the 7D. I have shot with my 16-35L2 24-70L2 on both bodies, same night, same venue, and found, time after time, the 7D finds focus quicker.

Day time, different story, as far as I can tell, this is an af beam assist issue, and I further invite any Canon rep contact me, and show me how this isn't a problem

 

[Northstar]

Here to put this one to bed...

I owe a 7D and a 5D Mark 3. I shoot with a 580EX2 flash. I am the in-photographer for several nightclubs, including one of the O2 academy venues in the UK.

This problems exists. FULL STOP.

If I'm doing a portrait of an artist, DJ, or just patrons of a venue. I will shoot with my 5D3 (I prefer the camera) If it's spontaneity that I'm trying to capture, I revert back to the 7D. I have shot with my 16-35L2 24-70L2 on both bodies, same night, same venue, and found, time after time, the 7D finds focus quicker.

Day time, different story, as far as I can tell, this is an af beam assist issue, and I further invite any Canon rep contact me, and show me how this isn't a problem

Steve...how about just plain low light without flash between the two? Have you done that comparison? As I said, I've had problems with a flash attached, but low available light shooting has been very good for me and I can't believe the 7D would be better with flash off in low light?

 

[RustyTheGeek]

Rusty..

- One Shot (rarely ever AI Focus or Servo)
- Center Point Focus (the way I've always shot on every camera)
- AF Assist Beam OFF (never use it anyway)
- Daylight, Fluorescent or Tungsten WB depending...
- Eval Metering mostly, rarely spot or center
- Shot Priority AF (not Release Priority)
- General Purpose AF Case (Case 1?)
- I usually have a RD2000 flash attached that has no AF Assist beam support, turned off or on depending.

..

http://www.sunpak.jp/english/products/rd2000/rendou.html

Rd2000 compatible? Yes, it works and fires the same as on my other cameras and I checked with Tocad, it is fully compatible, no fmwr update needed.
Have you set the AF to cross type points only? Yes
Have you tried middle shot priority NOT focus OR release, but in the middle of the two? Yes
Have you cleared all settings and reset them to factory default? (Try starting from scratch) Several times.
Do you ever do available low light shooting without a flash attached? (Meaning, no flash attached to the camera) Yes but I usually attach the flash and power it on or off. Been doing it that way for years on several cameras, same flash.
Highlight tone priority-OFF Yes
Shadow optimization - OFF Yes

In low light, I have not had these issues you mention with my 5d3...I have had af issues when a flash is attached. Of course "low light shooting" is subjective....my low light definition is different from yours. However, I distinctly remember a low light AF / iso experience recently where i was at a park shooting the kids and the sun had set 10 full minutes earlier, and I had no problem locking on to kids running around, no hunting. That is the level of low light shooting that my 5d3 has...just for your info.

Edit...and I should add that I live in a heavily wooded area...10 minutes after sunset is pretty dark.( compared to the desert or coast)
Good luck...just trying to help..

Thank you very much for your ideas Northstar! I appreciate your taking the time to offer help. See above inside the quote for my specific answers in bold. In general, I prefer to shoot with the camera set pretty basic. Center AF Point, very few in camera tweaks to the image. Since I shoot RAW, most of it doesn't matter anyway.

I decided to return the camera for exchange as defective before my return period expired. Since there are other photographers that I know and trust that have not had the same experience as I have with their camera, I thought I would roll the dice and see if another 5D3 camera copy would work correctly/better. If I see the same behavior, I'll just sell it and wait for the 6D. What a PITA.

 

[RustyTheGeek]

Here to put this one to bed...

This problems exists. FULL STOP.

I'm sad/glad to hear that others can confirm this. At first, I thought I was nuts. It took me a little while to decide that it wasn't me and the camera was flaky. And just when I thought it was a done deal, I would have some good performance again and then I would think it was just me again. I hate intermittent problems. But now I can reproduce it pretty well so when I get the replacement body, I should be able to tell pretty quick whether or not it is a consistent problem with the camera. (As consistent and you can get I guess with a sample size of two bodies from the same retailer shipped 3 weeks apart.) I fear nothing will change based on so many people echoing what I have experienced. But since there are those out there that aren't seeing this, maybe I'll get lucky the 2nd time around. Fingers Crossed!!

 

[Northstar]

Here to put this one to bed...

This problems exists. FULL STOP.

I'm sad/glad to hear that others can confirm this. At first, I thought I was nuts. It took me a little while to decide that it wasn't me and the camera was flaky. And just when I thought it was a done deal, I would have some good performance again and then I would think it was just me again. I hate intermittent problems. But now I can reproduce it pretty well so when I get the replacement body, I should be able to tell pretty quick whether or not it is a consistent problem with the camera. (As consistent and you can get I guess with a sample size of two bodies from the same retailer shipped 3 weeks apart.) I fear nothing will change based on so many people echoing what I have experienced. But since there are those out there that aren't seeing this, maybe I'll get lucky the 2nd time around. Fingers Crossed!!

Rusty...Steve did say he shoots with the flash in these low light club venues....much different from shooting available low light w/o flash. curious to hear what he says about shooting comparison w/o flash attached.

as i said, i put my 430exii on and all of a sudden it's focus hunting...I think the assist beam is the problem. I'm going to go out in a few minutes (It will be dark in a few minutes here) and do some more testing w/o flash.

 

[RustyTheGeek]

Good to know, thanks Northstar. I think many agree that the AF Assist is a big part of the problem. What I don't understand is if the flash is attached but turned off, does it still contribute to the problem? It didn't seem to matter much in my case. I've always thought that the camera ignored the flash if it wasn't powered on. And if it does matter - I'll be damned if I'm going to start physically removing and replacing my flash all the time just to get the AF to work correctly! (But it will be good know!)

And then there's the whole discussion on the whole - if the camera was working correctly, this whole thread wouldn't even exist.

Wouldn't it be nice if the only thing we had to complain about with this camera was the fact that it only came in one color?