5D3 No Longer in Production

[Hannes]

So DPAF will be the savior??

And what about for video where they took the world by storm with the 5D2? So they sit around and wait until 2017 to put out a 5 series that does 4k (and has reasonable built-in usability features and built-in 1080p RAW)? Canon will be so beyond and afterthought by that crowd by then it won't even be funny.

But how big and profitable is that crowd really? What you are forgetting is the entire eco system available and in that respect canon is brilliant. Just look at the C100, who in their right mind would buy that thing when you look at the specs on paper? Yet it sells pretty well for what it is. Maybe canon has decided the enthusiast VDSLR market isn't big enough to invest lots of money on, especially when they have a cinema line. This obviously does nothing to the appeal for the vast majority of people buying a canon camera and have heard the video is good. These are the middle class moms who want to film their kids school play and if they go frivolous they might get a XXXD camera. DPAF is likely to be more important that the right codecs or 4K for what they make their money on, i.e. entry level cameras.

The 5DII kickstarted this and laid the foundation for canon to be successful in video. Sure they aren't selling many C500 but the C300 seems to be the defacto standard in reality TV and given the majority of the programming available is in that genre Canon may actually be on to a winner.

 

[neuroanatomist]

You're focusing on the wrong part of the problem.

You're unable to answer a direct question. I asked one, your answer was a total fail, and now you want to change the subject to a question you think you do know the answer to, even though you're failing to answer your own question correctly. Sigh.

Sales are declining so the challenge is to sell more units.

The best way to sell more units is to make the unit more attractive to buyers.

New features, be they software or hardware are a good way to make something more attractive to buyers.

So it sounds like you're agreeing with me that new FF cameras with new technology (at least DPAF) is a good idea for Canon's product range.

Of course new technology is a good idea...necessary, in fact. To date, your whole schtick on these forums has been that Canon's sensors are inferior (because they offer less low ISO DR than SoNikon). It's been thoroughly explained to you that Canon's lower low ISO DR has been a fact for years, and they're still the market leader. You've also frequently stated that Canon's lesser low ISO DR demonstrates their failure to innovate. DPAF has been a frequent response (by me and others) to your whining, and now all of a sudden it's your idea that DPAF is a great new technology, and I'm agreeing with you??

It's sad that you can't even get your own story straight. Total metacognitive fail.

 

[Don Haines]

Sales are declining so the challenge is to sell more units.

The best way to sell more units is to make the unit more attractive to buyers.

New features, be they software or hardware are a good way to make something more attractive to buyers.

so simple and so true.....

 

[jdramirez]

I worked at a major electronics and appliance retailer a few years back and I noticed the 60d was discontinued. It wasn't... we got more in a few weeks later. I wouldn't believe what the computer says unless there is an announcement or a major price drop.

 

[Mt Spokane Photography]

The 5DII kickstarted this and laid the foundation for canon to be successful in video. Sure they aren't selling many C500 but the C300 seems to be the defacto standard in reality TV and given the majority of the programming available is in that genre Canon may actually be on to a winner.

Sometimes people forget that Canon has been a huge player in video, along with Panasonic and Sony.

Canon has decided to now go after the Cinema business, and has made it a priority. It is listed in their most recent financial report as a company priority.

That is taking resources from still cameras. When the 5D MK II came out, a market soon devolped for accessories that were needed to make it a serious video camera. Now, there are large sensor video cameras from Canon which have video features included.

Before the 5D MK II, the price of entry for 2K digital video was $150K. Now, for under $20K you can get excellent equipment. DSLR video will be a feature for consumer use, and certainly PJ's and wedding professionals may use it, but the serious side of video now has access to proper equipment for a reasonable price.

Cinema has big $$ budgets, and Canon wants a large slice of that. They understand that local support located on site and in Hollywood with fast service turnarounds will mean more than a few dollars difference in price, or a difference in specifications.

 

[slclick]

pish posh. anywho, they can come out with a 5D9Mk2 and I'll still be happy with mine. My 5D3 won't stop working when the successor arrives.

 

[Chisox2335]

The system said they will still have the 5D3 in stock through 2017, but could the fact that they are no longer manufacuring new units be an indication....

Impossible. no, but really no company can afford in a technology behaving market to place more then 2 years of stock for a product. No shareholder will accept this and no CEO would dare to.

Remember Cisco in the '90s, the really were lucky to survive.

Agreed. I'm sorry but I call bs on this story or you spoke to an incompetent employee there, which is entirely possible. No company is going to discountinue the product in August 2014 but keep enough built up inventory to sell into 2017.

I am as unsure about all this as you are but it was what I was told and what I saw when I looked at their computer system (albeit I also have doubts about the validity of their system and their employees interpretation of that system).

However, something else to consider is that the retailers system also showed they only had 11 units of the camera in stock nationwide.

This retailer isn't really known for selling these kinds of cameras and do not even carry any models in their retail stores. If you want to get one from them you have to order it online.

So is it really that far fetched that a company like this could support the camera until 2017, given that they may only sell one or too models quarterly as an entire company? In that case Canon would not need an exorbitant amount of stock to keep up with this companies low demand.

I just found 11 stores within two hours of me that have it in stock. I'd venture to guess I'd find more if I extended my search further.

 

[Etienne]

There has been a lot of innovation since the 5D3 was released, so Canon might release a 5DIV earlier. I love my 5D3, but I love new capabilities too, so I'm looking forward to even better high ISO, Dual pixel AF, 4K video in camera, video goodies like focus peaking and false color, and I'd welcome a swivel touch screen (I could keep it closed to protect it, and yet it would be invaluable for video and weird angles).
Let the tech wars continue, and bring on the 5D4!

 

[Chuck Alaimo]

ok, thoughts...first off, best buy isn't in the market of selling pro or semi pro gear, so what some random sales clerk says is the last things I'd trust in regards to the future of a semi-ro/pro product line.

What I love most about this is the predictability of all the responses.

In a nutshell,

Some say this means the 5d3 will be out like tomorrow ---well, not if they have 2.5 years of stock left! If they have 2.5 years of stock left, then when will the 5d4 come out ---- in about 2.25 years! I highly doubt that.

now for all the sidebar stuff.

1dx2 before the 5d4? What are you guys smoking? Looking at the last cycle - the 1dx was announced in october of 2011 - released in march of 2012 but wasn't shipping until June. the 5d3 was announced in March of 2012 and available shortly after being announced. I would think the next cycle of updates will follow that same pattern - announce the flagship but don't release for a long time. then announce the 5d4 and have it be available shortly after the announcement.

then the gloom and doom report, and the failed idea that canon needs to do anything for more than bragging rights ---- the market decline is not because it has no good products on it (if this were the case then I'd think nikon and sony would be holding steady, but they are losing ground) - the market is declining for a bunch of reasons - because it's hit a saturation point, also because the technology has matured, because we are in a global recession and disposable income isn't as readily available, and yes, because the market has changed. the soccer moms don't give a rats ass about DR or low ISO IQ - and they are the ones buying consumer grade cameras en mass. If sales are slipping for that market segment it has less to do with real features and more to do with how it's marketed and the actual demand for the product.

"Sales are declining so the challenge is to sell more units."

This is true - but - this is more of a challenge for the marketing/advertising department. R&D is expensive, if sales are declining and the market is shrinking (this has happened even with the release of the A7, A7r, A7s, d4x, d810, and d610). Has any of the 6 bodies listed there jump started So-nikon-y's sales? their #'s are still just as down as Canon's.

That don't bode well for the idea that the dumping a ton of $$$$ into R&D to put a body that has better specs on the market will be the solution to the problem of "Sales are declining so the challenge is to sell more units."

And, this one I gotta just direct quote -

So in order to keep sales up..
- Nikon churns through models
- Sony reinvents the camera
- Canon does nothing except take consolation in knowing it sells more units than Nikon/Sony and just watches sales decline?

Irrespective of whether or not Nikon/Sony have better or worse technology their activity keeps their models current and in the mind of consumers. Shorter product life cycles means that they can react quicker too.

Whether people like it or not, based on past releases, it is safe to expect the 5D4 out next year and not 2016/2017.

Ok, yes - nikon churns out models - I call that the - "lets piss off all those that bought d4's and d800's by launching new models with slightly improved specs and fixes to bugs in the original model approach. did it help? Not in droves because most buyers of either body aren't rushing to purchase because their d4's and d800's still have such low shutter counts - 4k or 5.5K is a lot of $$$ to spend on a marginal upgrade...

Sony reinvents the camera..... wow...hyperbole maybe a little....just a wee bit???? Yes, they are the first to put a FF sensor in a mirrorless body, but come on, this does not reinvent the camera!

Then there's this - "Canon does nothing except take consolation in knowing it sells more units than Nikon/Sony and just watches sales decline?" Well, you said it yourself, they sold more units than sony. All of those things that sony and nikon are doing isn't helping ---- Honestly I wish it was because that would mean that the economy is rebounding and the market is shifting back to quality over quantity. A strong nikon and sony leads to a stronger canon (and vice versa).

"Irrespective of whether or not Nikon/Sony have better or worse technology their activity keeps their models current and in the mind of consumers. Shorter product life cycles means that they can react quicker too."

WOW...I kind of already stated how I feel about that.. . but... really short product life cycles on items with high price tags don't go over well. Save the short upgrade cycles for the sub 1K market, as incremental upgrades can be more easily glossed over with big advertising and crafty marketing.

Given all the above there though, canons conservative pragmatic approach is really wise considering the market climate.

 

[neuroanatomist]

The absence of a new lower end APS-C camera (xx0D) makes for interesting speculation that they've held off releasing a new camera because they realise there's no point in making it as the 7DII will make it seem irrelevant. When you put all of the rumors together plus this one that Canon may have stopped production of the 5D3 already then it is a bigger picture worth looking at.

Why do you persist in avoiding direct questions, making incorrect statements and refusing to admit your mistakes?

A 7DII costing over double what an xxxD model costs will make the latter irrelevant? A rumor that Canon has stopped 5DIII production based on what a Best Buy floor clerk said?

No, those are so utterly ridiculous that it's not worth discussing them further.

 

[Don Haines]

The absence of a new lower end APS-C camera (xx0D) makes for interesting speculation that they've held off releasing a new camera because they realise there's no point in making it as the 7DII will make it seem irrelevant.

WHAT?

You realize that the best selling Canon camera is the T3.... and that it outsells every other camera Canon makes combined! This is because you can get the camera and lens CHEAP!. Apparently, for the masses, cheap beats IQ hands down...

So somehow a 7D2, probably for $2500 WITHOUT a lens is going to somehow mean that there will be no more demand for a $400 camera with lens, when price seems to be the dominant market force for the masses?

Are you sure of your logic?

 

[Sporgon]

The absence of a new lower end APS-C camera (xx0D) makes for interesting speculation that they've held off releasing a new camera because they realise there's no point in making it as the 7DII will make it seem irrelevant.

WHAT?

You realize that the best selling Canon camera is the T3.... and that it outsells every other camera Canon makes combined! This is because you can get the camera and lens CHEAP!. Apparently, for the masses, cheap beats IQ hands down...

So somehow a 7D2, probably for $2500 WITHOUT a lens is going to somehow mean that there will be no more demand for a $400 camera with lens, when price seems to be the dominant market force for the masses?

Are you sure of your logic?

You guys just don't know how to deal with a petulant, rather retarded child, do you ?

The 7DII is a big camera that is going to cost-a-lot-of-money, and the xxxD is a little camera that does not cost-as-much-money.

 

[neuroanatomist]

...am I just crazy?

See...there's a direct question, and I'll answer it: Yes.

If a 'new' sensor goes into the next xxxD, it will be the 70D's sensor, not some new tech which may or may not appear in the 7DII.

 

[Mt Spokane Photography]

To me it seems that it is quite likely the next xxxD will have the same sensor as is in the 7DII. If they bring it out before the 7DII then maybe they think it will eat away some of the 7DII sales from the people that have a 7D now and are just looking for a camera that produces better IQ (and not necessarily better fps/AF) whereas if the first camera that 7D owners see with the new sensor is the 7DII then they stand to get more carry over sales from people who see it and say "I WANT!" (or at least that's my thinking, feel free to point out where I'm wrong.) So new sensor in new 7D model, maximise profits from upgraders buying new expensive camera that they may not need but want.

Now had they of released a new xxxD camera a month or two ago with existing sensor technology and then a few months later the 7DII comes along with a new sensor then maybe they're afraid that sales of the xxxD will stall because people will wait for xxx+1D from Canon with the same upgraded sensor tech that is in the 7DII. That would also prevent them from releasing a new xxx+1D that uses the new tech in the 7DII in the first half of 2015 because it would be too soon between models. It won't necessarily matter what is new in the 7DII just that the 7DII will have all the new stuff and people will want the new stuff in cheaper bodies and may delay purchasing decisions because of it.

So a bigger gap between xxxD models (no real problem with sales) so that they can slot in the 7DII and roll forward with whatever new goodies (new DIGIC too?) come in that.

Sound like a reasonable plan or am I just crazy?

I think you are right!

Its a typical policy for all manufacturers, and Canon is nothing, if not consistent and conservative in their operation.


However, with DSLR sales dropping, Canon may just not want to turn out new models as fast. A new model, even if it only has a new badge on it costs a manufacturer a ton of money. Old stock must be discounted, advertising materials and media must be updated (It costs a lot of $$ to make new TV commercials). The cost of stocking warehouses with a rebadged product is also high, they have to build cameras at full speed for 3 -6 months to get them in the pipeline. Doing this every year is a business expense that drags down profits, and if it does not generate enough new sales to make a good ROI, Canon won't do it.

Canon had stated (about a year or two ago) that a new 7D would only come out when there was a significant upgrade, obviously, they have been working at finding better technology that is producible at a target cost and sell for a big profit. Once they skim the cream off the early adopters, the upgrades will trickle down to consumer models, and some of the advanced tech held back from a 7D will appear in the high end models.

Canon is very predictable.

 

[Don Haines]

The absence of a new lower end APS-C camera (xx0D) makes for interesting speculation that they've held off releasing a new camera because they realise there's no point in making it as the 7DII will make it seem irrelevant.

WHAT?

You realize that the best selling Canon camera is the T3.... and that it outsells every other camera Canon makes combined! This is because you can get the camera and lens CHEAP!. Apparently, for the masses, cheap beats IQ hands down...

So somehow a 7D2, probably for $2500 WITHOUT a lens is going to somehow mean that there will be no more demand for a $400 camera with lens, when price seems to be the dominant market force for the masses?

Are you sure of your logic?

You guys just don't know how to deal with a petulant, rather retarded child, do you ?

The 7DII is a big camera that is going to cost-a-lot-of-money, and the xxxD is a little camera that does not cost-as-much-money.

That's not a nice way to talk about Canon's cameras!

Let me put this another way. There's two parts to this.

To me it seems that it is quite likely the next xxxD will have the same sensor as is in the 7DII. If they bring it out before the 7DII then maybe they think it will eat away some of the 7DII sales from the people that have a 7D now and are just looking for a camera that produces better IQ (and not necessarily better fps/AF) whereas if the first camera that 7D owners see with the new sensor is the 7DII then they stand to get more carry over sales from people who see it and say "I WANT!" (or at least that's my thinking, feel free to point out where I'm wrong.) So new sensor in new 7D model, maximise profits from upgraders buying new expensive camera that they may not need but want.

Now had they of released a new xxxD camera a month or two ago with existing sensor technology and then a few months later the 7DII comes along with a new sensor then maybe they're afraid that sales of the xxxD will stall because people will wait for xxx+1D from Canon with the same upgraded sensor tech that is in the 7DII. That would also prevent them from releasing a new xxx+1D that uses the new tech in the 7DII in the first half of 2015 because it would be too soon between models. It won't necessarily matter what is new in the 7DII just that the 7DII will have all the new stuff and people will want the new stuff in cheaper bodies and may delay purchasing decisions because of it.

So a bigger gap between xxxD models (no real problem with sales) so that they can slot in the 7DII and roll forward with whatever new goodies (new DIGIC too?) come in that.

Sound like a reasonable plan or am I just crazy?

much better explained.... and it does sound like a possible plan, but my bet is that the next rebel (xxxD) model will come out with the same sensor as the 70D and that the delays in the 7D2 are due to problems moving to a finer fabrication line.... but this is just a guess... I have no inside knowledge. If I did have any inside knowledge I would be silent and wouldn't speculate, so it is a safe bet that all of us who are enjoying this discussion are in the same boat

 

[Chuck Alaimo]

The absence of a new lower end APS-C camera (xx0D) makes for interesting speculation that they've held off releasing a new camera because they realise there's no point in making it as the 7DII will make it seem irrelevant.

WHAT?

You realize that the best selling Canon camera is the T3.... and that it outsells every other camera Canon makes combined! This is because you can get the camera and lens CHEAP!. Apparently, for the masses, cheap beats IQ hands down...

So somehow a 7D2, probably for $2500 WITHOUT a lens is going to somehow mean that there will be no more demand for a $400 camera with lens, when price seems to be the dominant market force for the masses?

Are you sure of your logic?

You guys just don't know how to deal with a petulant, rather retarded child, do you ?

The 7DII is a big camera that is going to cost-a-lot-of-money, and the xxxD is a little camera that does not cost-as-much-money.

That's not a nice way to talk about Canon's cameras!

Let me put this another way. There's two parts to this.

To me it seems that it is quite likely the next xxxD will have the same sensor as is in the 7DII. If they bring it out before the 7DII then maybe they think it will eat away some of the 7DII sales from the people that have a 7D now and are just looking for a camera that produces better IQ (and not necessarily better fps/AF) whereas if the first camera that 7D owners see with the new sensor is the 7DII then they stand to get more carry over sales from people who see it and say "I WANT!" (or at least that's my thinking, feel free to point out where I'm wrong.) So new sensor in new 7D model, maximise profits from upgraders buying new expensive camera that they may not need but want.

Now had they of released a new xxxD camera a month or two ago with existing sensor technology and then a few months later the 7DII comes along with a new sensor then maybe they're afraid that sales of the xxxD will stall because people will wait for xxx+1D from Canon with the same upgraded sensor tech that is in the 7DII. That would also prevent them from releasing a new xxx+1D that uses the new tech in the 7DII in the first half of 2015 because it would be too soon between models. It won't necessarily matter what is new in the 7DII just that the 7DII will have all the new stuff and people will want the new stuff in cheaper bodies and may delay purchasing decisions because of it.

So a bigger gap between xxxD models (no real problem with sales) so that they can slot in the 7DII and roll forward with whatever new goodies (new DIGIC too?) come in that.

Sound like a reasonable plan or am I just crazy?

this is starting to make less and less sense - again, we're comparing a sub 1K body to a new body with unknown specs and prices that may land in the +2k realm. Sorry, but anyone looking for better IQ that doesn't need the fps and tracking (7d users that don't shoot sports and birds) already has an option - the 6d sits in that sweet spot for price and IQ between at close to 1.6K. Also, if your a 7d user who has patiently waited for a while now, why would they jump ship for an xxxd body? Especially if they know the 7d2 is right around the corner.

It's more likely that canon is waiting on releasing a new xxxd or xxxxd body until the holiday season because those bodies are much more likely to sell as gifts than a 2k+ pro body.

 

[Sporgon]

The absence of a new lower end APS-C camera (xx0D) makes for interesting speculation that they've held off releasing a new camera because they realise there's no point in making it as the 7DII will make it seem irrelevant.

WHAT?

You realize that the best selling Canon camera is the T3.... and that it outsells every other camera Canon makes combined! This is because you can get the camera and lens CHEAP!. Apparently, for the masses, cheap beats IQ hands down...

So somehow a 7D2, probably for $2500 WITHOUT a lens is going to somehow mean that there will be no more demand for a $400 camera with lens, when price seems to be the dominant market force for the masses?

Are you sure of your logic?

You guys just don't know how to deal with a petulant, rather retarded child, do you ?

The 7DII is a big camera that is going to cost-a-lot-of-money, and the xxxD is a little camera that does not cost-as-much-money.

That's not a nice way to talk about Canon's cameras!

Let me put this another way. There's two parts to this.

To me it seems that it is quite likely the next xxxD will have the same sensor as is in the 7DII. If they bring it out before the 7DII then maybe they think it will eat away some of the 7DII sales from the people that have a 7D now and are just looking for a camera that produces better IQ (and not necessarily better fps/AF) whereas if the first camera that 7D owners see with the new sensor is the 7DII then they stand to get more carry over sales from people who see it and say "I WANT!" (or at least that's my thinking, feel free to point out where I'm wrong.) So new sensor in new 7D model, maximise profits from upgraders buying new expensive camera that they may not need but want.

Now had they of released a new xxxD camera a month or two ago with existing sensor technology and then a few months later the 7DII comes along with a new sensor then maybe they're afraid that sales of the xxxD will stall because people will wait for xxx+1D from Canon with the same upgraded sensor tech that is in the 7DII. That would also prevent them from releasing a new xxx+1D that uses the new tech in the 7DII in the first half of 2015 because it would be too soon between models. It won't necessarily matter what is new in the 7DII just that the 7DII will have all the new stuff and people will want the new stuff in cheaper bodies and may delay purchasing decisions because of it.

So a bigger gap between xxxD models (no real problem with sales) so that they can slot in the 7DII and roll forward with whatever new goodies (new DIGIC too?) come in that.

Sound like a reasonable plan or am I just crazy?

The now 18 mp ubiquitous sensor first made its appearance in the 7D. Did this next appear in a xxD or a xxxD ? I'm not sure but my guess is that is was an xxD, perhaps the 60D.

 

[neuroanatomist]

The now 18 mp ubiquitous sensor first made its appearance in the 7D. Did this next appear in a xxD or a xxxD ? I'm not sure but my guess is that is was an xxD, perhaps the 60D.

In fact, it did appear next in the T2i/550D, but not until the following year, then in the 60D a few weeks later. It's certainly in Canon's best interest to use a sensor in multie bodies across multiple lines.

What's crazy and illogical is to take two separate facts (that the 7DII might have new sensor tech and that there hasn't been an xxxD update this year), and draw a causal link between them. It's particularly crazy and illogical given the existence of a new 20 MP DPAF sensor that's been used in just one body to date. Canon has made APS-C sensors used in only one body, but those have all been xxxD/xxxxD bodies, where the production volume means costs are recouped without needing to 'trickle down'.

 

[Mt Spokane Photography]

The now 18 mp ubiquitous sensor first made its appearance in the 7D. Did this next appear in a xxD or a xxxD ? I'm not sure but my guess is that is was an xxD, perhaps the 60D.

In fact, it did appear next in the T2i/550D, but not until the following year, then in the 60D a few weeks later. It's certainly in Canon's best interest to use a sensor in multie bodies across multiple lines.

What's crazy and illogical is to take two separate facts (that the 7DII might have new sensor tech and that there hasn't been an xxxD update this year), and draw a causal link between them. It's particularly crazy and illogical given the existence of a new 20 MP DPAF sensor that's been used in just one body to date. Canon has made APS-C sensors used in only one body, but those have all been xxxD/xxxxD bodies, where the production volume means costs are recouped without needing to 'trickle down'.

It does sound like Canon is clamping down on costs. There have been some rumors saying that new sensor is difficult to produce, so dropping it into a low end body might have to wait until production costs drop and volume can be increased. It also differentiates the 70d line and provides a enticement for buyers to spend more money. Its hard to tell why it has not trickled down yet. I'm not sure how 70D sales stand, but, if they are relatively high, then Canon will not want to pull the rug from under high profits. Nikon has done that, and hurt profit levels.

 

[neuroanatomist]

It does sound like Canon is clamping down on costs.

Absolutely. Their camera division is still running a small profit despite drops in sales, and that's mainly due to 'operational efficiencies' (= cutting costs).