5DIV, 7DII and future of upgrades

Somewhat happy with what I have and new ones do not motivate me.

Unless the sensor gets a serious update I will firmly stand in current body.

3 layer 25MP sensor? Count me in!

Split light filter instead of bayer? Count me in!

14 stops DR (sorry Canon fans but I have to mention this...) with clean ISO 25600? Count me in!

Same old sh!t sensor? Sorry!
 
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Chuck Alaimo said:
Must take issue here --- "In my opinion some 'future mirrorless FF from Canon' you may have at least one benefit over 6D, 5D, etc.: you compose a picture first, then touch the screen anywhere you want it to focus, press shutter button = done." ---- sorry if this is blunt, how is that any different than what we're currently doing???? compose and focus then take the shot, same process.

Users of 'smaller' FF DSLRs have to focus-recompose almost always because focus points cover only small part of the frame. 6D is probably the best example -- I can bet that majority of this camera owners use only center focus point :)

But... addition of touchscreen could be a sufficient feature upgrade to make "6D II" (OK, let's leave 5Ds to more professional public who think that they do not need such stuff).

Otherwise in a year or two Canon will have difficulties upselling current 6D body to those who now own 650D, 700D, 70D, EOS M, etc. These touchscreens are extremely addictive thingies: using a camera with touchscreen, then switching to another one without it -- is a similar experience to using smartphone with touchscreen for few months and then trying to navigate menu system of some older phone without touch interface -- during first few minutes you just instinctively poke your fingers into the screen and wonder 'why nothing happens?' (at least I do :) ).
 
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One theory that occurs to me that I haven't seen mentioned:

It strikes me that this likely WAS going to be the replacement for the M, but Canon perfected the Dual Pixel tech of the 70D sooner than expected. Between that new tech, and what companies like Sony are doing with the A7, they decided that the EOS M line was a dead end, and to cook something new from scratch.

It really does look to me like they decided to push this out to placate the Asian market, while they develop their response.

I'd not write off Canon just yet in this market segment. In today's consumer tech world, companies like Apple have set the precedent that if you bring a hit to the market, it needs to be a home run. In other words, it's better to have nothing on the market, than something that's perceived as a dog. I think Canon learned this lesson hard with the EOS M, and won't make the same mistake again.

Stay tuned... 8)
 
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I do think touchscreens are the future. I'm not much of a live view person, but at a minimum I'd love to be able to operate the menu from a touchscreen. So much easier to just tap where you want to go instead of scrolling. And yes, I can see the advantages of a touchscreen for focusing in live view. It might actually convince me to use it once and awhile.
 
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unfocused said:
I do think touchscreens are the future. I'm not much of a live view person, but at a minimum I'd love to be able to operate the menu from a touchscreen. So much easier to just tap where you want to go instead of scrolling. And yes, I can see the advantages of a touchscreen for focusing in live view. It might actually convince me to use it once and awhile.

Touchscreen also is very useful to quickly browse through existing images on the card: just sweep, drag, pinch-to-zoom.

One can get used to do same things in 'professional way' with buttons, wheels, joysticks, 4-ways controllers, etc. But why Apple didn't yet release some "iPad Photo Pro" model that has wheels and buttons instead of touchscreen? :)

PS: Touchscreens probably are not very compatible with 'weather-seal-water-resist' idea, so maybe there will be no touchscreens on 5Ds...
 
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Zlyden said:
Chuck Alaimo said:
Must take issue here --- "In my opinion some 'future mirrorless FF from Canon' you may have at least one benefit over 6D, 5D, etc.: you compose a picture first, then touch the screen anywhere you want it to focus, press shutter button = done." ---- sorry if this is blunt, how is that any different than what we're currently doing???? compose and focus then take the shot, same process.

Users of 'smaller' FF DSLRs have to focus-recompose almost always because focus points cover only small part of the frame. 6D is probably the best example -- I can bet that majority of this camera owners use only center focus point :)

But... addition of touchscreen could be a sufficient feature upgrade to make "6D II" (OK, let's leave 5Ds to more professional public who think that they do not need such stuff).

Otherwise in a year or two Canon will have difficulties upselling current 6D body to those who now own 650D, 700D, 70D, EOS M, etc. These touchscreens are extremely addictive thingies: using a camera with touchscreen, then switching to another one without it -- is a similar experience to using smartphone with touchscreen for few months and then trying to navigate menu system of some older phone without touch interface -- during first few minutes you just instinctively poke your fingers into the screen and wonder 'why nothing happens?' (at least I do :) ).

The thing of it is... live view is a useful tool for many things, but, generally its best for tripod mounted shots, or night shots... you'll never ever ever catch me trying to focus through live view hand held with a 70-200...with a bit, longer lens, holding a camera in live view mode is the least stable way to hold it. I own a touch screen phone, and an ipad...i have never lusted for touch screen on my DSLR.

6d ---you know what... I own one and I do use the outer points. It's not just a center point only camera. They work pretty darn good in good to alright light. It's when it gets dark that it's center point only. And even then, if you have a speedlight on there and the distances aren't too great, you can still use the outer points. Are they as accurate as the mk3, no, but do they work, yes.

I will agree with unfocused though, for menu scrolling, a touchscreen may be a quicker interface.
 
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unfocused said:
...re-reading some columns by Nikonista Thom Hogan...and seeing that Fuji is announcing another new, free firmware upgrade for the X-Pro-1, got me thinking about the future of DSLR upgrades.

I recall Canon's commitment when it released the original F1 that they would not release a new model for at least a decade. Their purpose was to demonstrate to professional photographers that they were committed to their pro-level SLR and that photographers could purchase the camera knowing it would be fully supported.

For most of the past decade, gear enthusiasts have been spoiled by the remarkable and near continuous improvements in DSLRs. But, those improvements are increasingly coming at the margins. Higher megapixels, increased dynamic range, high and low ISO improvements, while nice, are generally needed only under very specific conditions for very specific purposes.

Any honest assessment would acknowledge that for 90-95% of subjects and conditions, the cheapest entry-level Canon and Nikon will produce results that under real world conditions will be indistinguishable from the flagship models.

Fuji has followed a path with their X-Pro-1 of releasing firmware updates to keep the camera current and boost customer satisfaction and loyalty. (To be fair, Canon did much the same thing when it released it's major firmware upgrade of the 7D – extending the practical life of the camera and effectively giving customers a free "7D.20" version of the original.)

So, having said all that, I am going to go out on a limb and predict that the upgrade cycle for the 5DIII to 5DIV will equal or exceed the cycle between the 7D and 7DII and that we are entering an era in which upgrades will be fewer and further between.

At the same time, I am going to suggest/hope that Canon and Nikon will offer more significant firmware upgrades during the interim.

This will certainly require some adjustments to their business model, but in a sense they are simply going back to the model that both companies followed successfully for decades. That's one reason why I believe Nikon and Canon are better positioned for long-term success than companies like Sony, which got into the digital camera market during the boom era and do not have the institutional memory or experience to easily adopt to longer development cycles and more modest sales growth.

I see Canon as particularly well-positioned for this change. They have aggressively developed products for new markets, especially the booming cinema market where growth is fed by the seemingly unquenchable thirst of the internet for new video content. Their recent emphasis on security cameras also shows they are prepared to move into another fast growing emerging market. I am less convinced that Nikon is equally well-positioned, but then I don't follow them as closely as I do Canon.

So what's the point?

In part to feed off the idea of "10 years from now" and in part to get people out of the rut of trading insults over dynamic range and other esoteric subjects that do not sell cameras and do not matter to the vast majority of photographers.

What is your prediction? Will we see fewer upgrades in the future? Will we see more substantial firmware upgrades? Given that Canon and Nikon need to continue to sell products, do you think they will become more aggressive at selling lenses, strobes and other peripherals? Will you spend less money on photography in the future, or will you just spend it differently and how?

Very interesting thoughts! :)

Personally, I'd like to see a slower cycle. Longer period of time (4 years plus) between major body releases. For example, the 1D X is a phenomenal camera, and I don't see it "needing" to be replaced for years to come. Even if Canon put a sensor with more DR into it, that would only affect lower ISO settings, which are so rarely used when photographing action...I really wouldn't see the point.

I do indeed hope to see more firmware updates. So much can be done with firmware, now that we have eminently more capable hardware. I see no reason new features, say focus peaking or even more information displayed in Canon's Transmissive LCD in their OVFs, couldn't be added through firmware. For features that require fairly significant development time, I don't see why us, as customers, shouldn't even pay a small fee for feature-enhancing firmware. I am not saying we should pay thousands of dollars just for a significant firmware update, but a few hundred for a firmware update that moves the 1D X into the future a few years from now, keeping it a competitive camera...I think there could be a business model augmentation to be found in such a paradigm somewhere...

I cannot say whether I'll spend less money on photography in the future. I think I'll spend what I feel I need to spend, which is what I've always done. Sometimes my photography expenditures are high (or even very high...such as this year, over $15,000 spent on photography so far, where as last year, I only spent a few hundred), and sometimes they may even be non-existent. When it comes to camera upgrades, I do need a compelling reason to spend my money.

Both the 1D X and 5D III are quite compelling to me. The 5D III simply because it is very good at everything, and even though it may not have all the best technology everywhere, it is still a superior product overall. I do mostly bird and wildlife photography these days, and landscape/macro photography more seldom. That is in part because I really love birds and wildlife, but also in part because I like to maximize the detail...in highlights, midtones, and shadows...of my landscapes, and simple fact of the matter is, it is probably the most demanding form of photography for dynamic range...and Canon cameras don't measure up. Sure, I can get around the problem of Canon's read noise, and I do...although it DID cost me more money, as I had to buy an expensive set of Lee filters and the Lee filter system in order to balance contrast on-site, and Topaz tools and Nik tools in order to extract the maximum amount of detail from my shadows in post. That was an investment of well over a thousand dollars, above and beyond the money I spent on my camera bodies.

Better technology gives me more control, more capabilities, and less need to spend extra money on the side to extract the kind of detail I really want from my photography. To me, the most compelling camera that I would be most interested in buying next is one with as many megapixels as Canon can reasonably pack into a sensor, and at least 13 stops of dynamic range. I would probably settle for more megapixels, and "the same old DR", if that is all Canon can come up with...but I have to be honest...I'd part with my money with more difficulty than otherwise. ;) I believe Canon is a highly innovative company...but I do think there needs to be some compelling developments in their future product releases to keep me buying. If they don't innovate compelling new technology, and especially innovate and progress enough to keep up with the competition, it will be ever more difficult for them to get me to spend my money on their products. I probably still will...I have too much invested in Canon glass not to...but it will be late, and lazy, never at release when they are getting the most revenue from their products...instead I'll wait for the best sales time can offer, and snatch up their products at a significant discount, resulting in the minimal amount of revenue for Canon. I'll be late to the game with new gear, possibly by a couple years, but that will be the only way I feel as though I'm getting my moneys worth.

In the most extreme case, I'll break down and buy the most compelling product from a competitor. Sony's A7r is intriguing, because it could make an excellent landscape camera that would work with EF mount lenses. I don't really need AF or other high performance factors for landscape photography, so the reports of the A7r's poor AF performance with adapted EF lenses wouldn't be a huge deal. The remaining problem is...it costs quite a bit, $2700? For "just" a landscape camera, even though the sensor is amazing, eh, I'd still have to wait until a particularly deep sale occurred before I could justify the purchase.

So, to me, compelling innovations included in compelling upgrades. That's the most important thing Canon can do. They don't necessarily have to compete feature for feature with their competitors, but I do think they need to keep abreast of their competitors in terms of the level of their products.

unfocused said:
Reading some of the excellent commentary here, especial Jon Rista's take on the amount of headroom that remains in ISO improvements (I don't for a second pretend to understand terms like quantum efficiency, so I have to take his word for it)

You don't necessarily have to take my word for it. Here is a little visual diagram demonstrating Q.E.:

4vfEBeU.jpg


The two diagrams are identical in every way, except the number of electrons stored in each photodiode. The amount of photons raining down on each sensor is identical. The microlenses and color filter array behave identically. The only difference is that the one on the left has 40% Q.E. and the one on the right has 60% Q.E. A photodiode works by converting incoming photons into electrons, an amount of electrical charge, which is stored and can then later be read out via a special process. Photodiodes are not 100% efficient, especially at room temperature, so instead of converting every single photon it detects into an electron, each photon that strikes the photodiode increases the probability of an electron being released.

For photodiodes that have a 40% quantum efficiency, it takes approximately 2.5 photons for that potential to become realized, and release an electron. That means, every two to three photons detected, in a roughly even distribution, one electron is released. For photodiodes that have 60% quantum efficiency, it takes approximately 1.667 photons for that potential to become realized, and release an electron. That means every one to two photons detected, in roughly even distribution, one electron is released.

In other words, it takes less time for a sensor with higher quantum efficiency to achieve the same exposure. In the same amount of time, the exposure for a sensor with higher quantum efficiency will be greater. At high ISO, a sensor with higher Q.E. will have a greater exposure...more electrons, greater charge per pixel, requiring less gain, to achieve the same result. Less gain, less noise.

It should be relatively self explanatory now to understand that once Q.E. approaches 100%, where you basically get 1 electron for every 1 photon detected, you've literally reached the limits of what physics will allow. There is no Q.E. above 100%...not literally. Someone may come up with a means of improving sensor sensitivity even more...historically, changes to photodiode area is the only thing that affects the maximum number of electrons that a photodiode can hold before leaking charge or increasing in temperature (any additional photon strikes once you reach the photodiodes capacity either result in releasing an electron, which means another electron has to be "lost" somehow (into the neighboring photodiodes, into the wiring current, etc.)...or the photon is converted into heat.) It may be possible to put multiple layers of photodiodes into a pixel...allowing electrons to be collected "three dimensionally"...in area and in depth, which might increase maximum well capacity and the potential of converting a photon, therefor increasing charge, and therefor signal strength, at higher ISO settings. So far, layered photodiodes have only accompanied sensor designs like Foveon...but there is no reason, necessarily, that we would have to employ all three colors at each pixel, we could stick to a bayer design and gain the benefits of gathering photons in area as well as depth.

Anyway...hope the diagram helps.
 
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unfocused said:
What is your prediction? Will we see fewer upgrades in the future? Will we see more substantial firmware upgrades? Given that Canon and Nikon need to continue to sell products, do you think they will become more aggressive at selling lenses, strobes and other peripherals? Will you spend less money on photography in the future, or will you just spend it differently and how?

I see the future in firmware/software competition, with the advent of mirrorless and evf plus faster processors there is no end of "smart photography" if a company isn't conservative (that means you, Canon). Imagine:

  • focus peaking in vf - no more shallow dof af problems (unless tracking)
  • shutter speed prediction based on subject's movement speed and distance
  • aperture/dof prediction based on subjects you mark or automatic scene evaluation
  • smart af - "please always keep the subject's eye(s) in focus"
  • smart tracking - "please track the object with the green feathers, no matter where I point the camera"
  • mirrorless 100+ fps and automatic sorting depending on image iq (Magic Lantern already does a bit of that, but with limited resolution and only in lv)
  • configurable mirrorless on-sensor metering - will make zone metering look like stone age

Other than that, I see me taking much better pictures than now in the future :-) not because of better gear, but because I learn every day and try not to forget too much - the dslr systems have certainly reached a point of "good enough" like with my 60d, so it's good that there is no need to worry too much unless for recreation talk on CR :-)
 
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Marsu42 said:
unfocused said:
What is your prediction? Will we see fewer upgrades in the future? Will we see more substantial firmware upgrades? Given that Canon and Nikon need to continue to sell products, do you think they will become more aggressive at selling lenses, strobes and other peripherals? Will you spend less money on photography in the future, or will you just spend it differently and how?

I see the future in firmware/software competition, with the advent of mirrorless and evf plus faster processors there is no end of "smart photography" if a company isn't conservative (that means you, Canon). Imagine:

  • focus peaking in vf - no more shallow dof af problems (unless tracking)
  • shutter speed prediction based on subject's movement speed and distance
  • aperture/dof prediction based on subjects you mark or automatic scene evaluation
  • smart af - "please always keep the subject's eye(s) in focus"
  • smart tracking - "please track the object with the green feathers, no matter where I point the camera"
  • mirrorless 100+ fps and automatic sorting depending on image iq (Magic Lantern already does a bit of that, but with limited resolution and only in lv)
  • configurable mirrorless on-sensor metering - will make zone metering look like stone age

Other than that, I see me taking much better pictures than now in the future :-) not because of better gear, but because I learn every day and try not to forget too much - the dslr systems have certainly reached a point of "good enough" like with my 60d, so it's good that there is no need to worry too much unless for recreation talk on CR :-)
I love your predictions smart focus come true.
Hopefully Canon hear you.

smart af - "please always keep the subject's eye(s) in focus"
smart tracking - "please track the object with the green feathers, no matter where I point the camera"
 
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Chuck Alaimo said:
Full frame sensors and the consumer market ---looking at the consumer market as it stands there is no reason to push FF sensors on the consumer market -- we are already seeing a drastic shift on the consumer side --- it's all about accessibility, networking, ease of use, creative filters --- facebook and instagram...and of course, all in one device. That i think is one of the biggest reasons mirrorless won't take off ---the consumer group it would target is happy with crappy blurry cell phone shots that can be tagged and facebooked immediately.

the only real way I see FF sensors being standard in the market are is APS-C sensors are phased out ---which given all the new crop sensor releases, I don't foresee that happening anytime soon.


http://www.dpreview.com/articles/0336328811/cp-2013-interview-with-canons-masaya-maeda

Cell phones compete directly with the compact market, not EOS products. Anyone with an inkling of a thought that they want something more than their phone is the primary target for the Rebel line. APS-C isn't going away, rather the opposite, it's the bait on the hook to convince people to use something more than their phone. My bet is that APS-C sensors are going to be moved into the high end compact price bracket, and at the same time full frame will go through the same sort of transition. Sub $1,000 full frame bodies will be coming sooner or later, at which point APS-C becomes increasingly less appealing for the kind of people you see around here. In the long term I think APS-C will be relegated to the same sort of status your average P&S has right now.
 
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Marsu42 said:
I see the future in firmware/software competition, with the advent of mirrorless and evf plus faster processors there is no end of "smart photography" if a company isn't conservative (that means you, Canon). ...the dslr systems have certainly reached a point of "good enough" like with my 60d, so it's good that there is no need to worry too much unless for recreation talk on CR :-)

I also like your list. Interesting that it's not about sensor performance. You hit the nail on the head (den Nagel auf den Kopf treffen???) with the comment about recreation talk on CR.

One thing we also seldom take into consideration here is how advanced post-processing software has become. I'm amazed at how good the programs have become at tasks like upsizing files and noise reduction. I think it's entirely possible that the biggest advances in the future will come not from better sensors, but from software that can extract more and more information from what the sensor captures.
 
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9VIII said:
Sub $1,000 full frame bodies will be coming sooner or later, at which point APS-C becomes increasingly less appealing for the kind of people you see around here. In the long term I think APS-C will be relegated to the same sort of status your average P&S has right now.

Hmm.... I don't really think so. Already the quality difference between APS-C and full frame is pretty marginal. In the vast middle where most pictures are taken and displayed it's impossible to see any difference. The bulk of research and development dollars industry-wide is going into improving smaller sensors for cell phones. Advancements at that level will benefit APS-C more than full frame.

Even if we see a sub $1,000 full frame in the future, most consumers will view that as too expensive and will opt for the APS-C camera at half the price or less. (The top four selling DSLRs on Amazon right now are all under $500).

But, maybe I'm misunderstanding your post. Perhaps you mean that enthusiasts will convert to full frame. That could be possible, but judging from the sales of the 70D and the pent-up demand for the 7DII, it appears that the market for higher end APS-C cameras will remain strong for the foreseeable future.

On the other hand, if you are suggesting that the niche that was formerly filled by point and shoot cameras will be filled by small DSLRs, such as the SL1, I'm inclined to agree.
 
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unfocused said:
9VIII said:
Sub $1,000 full frame bodies will be coming sooner or later, at which point APS-C becomes increasingly less appealing for the kind of people you see around here. In the long term I think APS-C will be relegated to the same sort of status your average P&S has right now.

Hmm.... I don't really think so. Already the quality difference between APS-C and full frame is pretty marginal. In the vast middle where most pictures are taken and displayed it's impossible to see any difference. The bulk of research and development dollars industry-wide is going into improving smaller sensors for cell phones. Advancements at that level will benefit APS-C more than full frame.

Even if we see a sub $1,000 full frame in the future, most consumers will view that as too expensive and will opt for the APS-C camera at half the price or less. (The top four selling DSLRs on Amazon right now are all under $500).

But, maybe I'm misunderstanding your post. Perhaps you mean that enthusiasts will convert to full frame. That could be possible, but judging from the sales of the 70D and the pent-up demand for the 7DII, it appears that the market for higher end APS-C cameras will remain strong for the foreseeable future.

On the other hand, if you are suggesting that the niche that was formerly filled by point and shoot cameras will be filled by small DSLRs, such as the SL1, I'm inclined to agree.

That's pretty much it. If Canon can't sell compact cameras because smartphones make them redundant, then they need to upgrade entry level cameras to the point that people start to think it's worth their time and effort to use a separate device again.
I guess part of the reasoning behind saying that sub $1,000 full frame cameras come along with that is that if entry level cameras become that much better, then people have that much less incentive to buy mid-range cameras. It makes sense that the entire product line moves down accordingly (and, as seen with the 7D and 70D, that seems to be the natural order of things anyway). Once it's only a few hundred dollars difference between mid-range APS-C and full frame, I think a lot more people will be jumping on full frame. Hopefully that also means we get medium format on the high end.
 
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unfocused said:
But, maybe I'm misunderstanding your post. Perhaps you mean that enthusiasts will convert to full frame.

Not all enthusiasts have unlimited deep pockets, and I guess ff lenses will keep being more expensive than aps-c, even though an aps-c lens has to be sharper to make use of the dense pixel sensor. So it's not only the cost of the ff sensor itself, but also the difference for example between a good aps-c uwa (~600) and a ff uwa (~1200) and it continues from there...

unfocused said:
On the other hand, if you are suggesting that the niche that was formerly filled by point and shoot cameras will be filled by small DSLRs, such as the SL1, I'm inclined to agree.

I'd tend to disagree, because p&s covers *exactly* what many people want - point and shoot. And additional complexity or bulk is not wanted, strange as it seems from a dslr enthusiast's perspective. Actually I really wonder about the success perspective of the sl1-type range, it's too dslr-like for p&s customers, but too dumbed down for everyone else and guarantees a cramp in the hand if not used by a child.
 
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