6D and BIF

Mar 31, 2014
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I have a 6D + 70-200f/2.8 II + 2X III TC. As discussed elsewhere, AF is not very good. Do I change the body or the lens? Regarding lenses, I would like to be at 560-600mm with converter. So I see three options: Sigma 120-300 + 2X III TC, Sigma 150-600 or Canon 100-400 II + 1.4X III TC. But the Canon 100-400 II + 1.4X III TC will not AF on a 6D.

So what move is recommended for BIF?

And on another note, what is GAS?

Thanks.
 
A lighter lens is really nice for bif. The tamron 150-600 works good on a 70d or 7dii. Sigma 120-300 and 1.4xiii is really great but also heavy and expensive. Everyone is thinking the new canon 100-400 is going to e really good. For my use 400 on a crop body is generally enough for bif. I usually set the tamron at 400 or less because the af is faster.
 
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@ all - thanks very much! What I am reading is change body and lens. I really like the sharpness, but the 6D AF is just not that good, correct? What is the actual crop factor - 1.2 or so for 7D II? And the 5D III is not as sharp as the 6D?

@ Meywd - Noted re GAS. I have it almost constantly. Don't know why; I hardly have time to use what I have.
 
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I find the AF on 6D to be very good, and I have used it for BIF with no problems (although I normally use my 7D for birds). The drawback, as I see it, is the lower fps and small picture buffer. I have put up a couple of 6D bird photos on my Flickr page; here are a couple of BIF shots:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ulfgotthardsson/13965144259/sizes/l
https://www.flickr.com/photos/ulfgotthardsson/14151978094/sizes/l/

They were shot in low Swedish winter/spring light with ISO 3200 (the Goldeneye) and ISO 6400 (the gull). And they are cropped.
 
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For BIF, I would say AF system is the most important thing, followed by frame rate. Having the right focal length helps as well...it can be very tough to frame birds in flight with a small frame.


I would recommend the 7D II and 70-200mm f/2.8 as a start. That will get you around a 315mm effective focal length (the 7D II sensor is slightly larger than past Canon APS-C sensors, maybe around 1.55x crop or so), which IMO is very nice for BIF. You could probably slap on a 1.4x TC for maybe around 435-440mm effective focal length, however your losing that stop of light.


Having a FAST lens is also important for BIF, you want as much light a you can get, for two reasons. First, it allows you to take full advantage of the f/2.8 dual cross-type AF point. In lower light, this can be huge for BIF. Second, it improves your SNR for each shot, allowing you to avoid having to REALLY crank up the ISO to get the necessary shutter speed. With a cropped sensor, even the 7D II, you want that extra light. (It might not be quite as important with a 5D III, which would be my second body recommendation.)


The other benefit with a fast prime is you can use a 1.4x TC, and not drop yourself into f/8 territory. While it is possible to do BIF at f/8, it is extremely difficult. Even with AF point expansion (so five or nine points around the center point), your chances of actually locking onto your subject quickly enough to actually get the shot at f/8 are very low. You really don't want to be doing BIF slower than f/5.6, and even then, it's going to be tough. You want f/4 or f/2.8 for BIF.


Finally, frame rate is important. I wouldn't say it is the most important thing for BIF, but after AF, it is probably the next most important. Getting the right wing position and head position relative to the body for a really great BIF shot requires a higher frame rate. The 10fps of the 7D II is going to be a real bonus here. You could get away with it with the 5D III...however having used the 7D for years myself, I really do feel the drop in frame rate with the 5D III (and it's only 2fps, vs. the 4fps difference relative to the 7D II) and BIF. I largely stick to perching and wading songbirds and shorebirds/waders with the 5D III, because it is pretty tough to get just that right pose with the slower frame rate.


If you do get the 5D III, my top recommended lens for BIF would be the 300mm f/2.8 L II, with and without the 1.4x TC III. I think the 420mm f/4 aperture with the 5D III is pretty great for BIF (I've rented that lens twice now, and I really like it...probably the next lens I intend to purchase from Canon, as it's actually great for wildlife, BIF w/ the 5D III, and astrophotography.) Going longer than ~420mm on FF (or effective focal length on APS-C) often presents issues keeping the bird in the frame, and nicely composed within the frame....I've tried BIF with my 600mm f/4 L II, and it is usually very difficult unless the bird is quite far away. About the only BIF I do these days is fairly distant hawks circling overhead, and then, they are usually often too far away even for the 600. Once I get the 300/2.8, I'll probably get back to doing BIF more, as the wider field just makes it so much easier.


Anyway, those are my recommendations. I'd say 7D II + 70-200 f/2.8 L II is my first, and 5D III + 300 f/2.8 L II + 1.4x TC is my second.
 
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chrysoberyl said:
@ all - thanks very much! What I am reading is change body and lens. I really like the sharpness, but the 6D AF is just not that good, correct? What is the actual crop factor - 1.2 or so for 7D II? And the 5D III is not as sharp as the 6D?

@ Meywd - Noted re GAS. I have it almost constantly. Don't know why; I hardly have time to use what I have.

The 5D3 is from IQ equal to the 6D. From AF the 5D3 is much better. The AF of the 7D2 might give a few small advantages, above the 5D3. The big difference between the 7D2 and the 5D3 is the fact that the 7D2 is a APS-C sensor and the 5D3 a FF. So, the 7D2 will have a 1.6 crop factor, but the 5D3 has a better IQ (not that the IQ of the 7D2 is not OK). For BIF a 6D is the wrong camera. Both 7D2 and 5D3 do have there advantages. Hard to tell which is best. In low light the 5D3 will do better. If there is sufficient light, then the 7D2 will have a deeper reach. I own both cameras, but it's hard to tell you which one you need to buy. It also depends on your budget, and there the 7D2 has a big advantage.
 
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jrista said:
the 7D II sensor is slightly larger than past Canon APS-C sensors, maybe around 1.55x crop or so

Where did you get that info?

According my information it's a APS-C sensor, just as the other APS-C sensors of Canon. So the crop is also 1.6. The 7D2 has indeed more pixels (20mp) but that has no influence on the crop factor. It might only give you some more detail when you want to crop your photo in PP.
 
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FEBS said:
jrista said:
the 7D II sensor is slightly larger than past Canon APS-C sensors, maybe around 1.55x crop or so

Where did you get that info?

According my information it's a APS-C sensor, just as the other APS-C sensors of Canon. So the crop is also 1.6. The 7D2 has indeed more pixels (20mp) but that has no influence on the crop factor. It might only give you some more detail when you want to crop your photo in PP.


Well, last I knew, the 18mp APS-C was 22.2x14.8mm in size. I thought the new sensor was around 23.5x15.5mm, but I guess I was wrong about that (I may have crossed lines between patents, as I've been looking through all the Canon sensor technology patents lately). I just took a look at DPR, and they are listing all Canon APS-C sensors at the same size, 22.4x15.0mm (which is slightly larger, but not that much)...however I do not believe that is correct for the older APS-C sensors. I am pretty certain the original 7D is 22.2x14.8, and I was also pretty certain DPR stated that in the past as well...not sure why the data has changed. Based on these numbers, I guess it still is ~1.6x crop...in exact terms, the old 18mp sensor was a ~1.65x crop, where as the new is a ~1.62x crop. A 23.5x15.5mm sensor has a 1.56x crop ratio.
 
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chrysoberyl said:
I have a 6D + 70-200f/2.8 II + 2X III TC. As discussed elsewhere, AF is not very good. Do I change the body or the lens?

I imagine the 6d for bif to be probably the worst case scenario: no outer cross points, only all or one af point selectable, old-school 5d2-style tracking firmware not optimized for this application. The 6d can do ok for movement on one dof pane, but as soon as something's moving towards or away from/to you the keeper rate sinks to rock bottom esp. on low-contrast objects.

You should have a look at the 7d2, using your lens with the tc glued on is not the best choice (af speed is slower, iq is worse) - and a crop camera as a "built-in" 1.6x tc. If you're shooting in good light you'll be fine, esp. if you're not a pro competing with other "best iq only" photogs.
 
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BIF is a large part of my work. You will want:

7D MK II. Then, if you can swing the money, a 500 f4 would be perfect for you. It will do great with the 70-200 you alread have, and will work great with the TC. If money is an issue, you will be fine with the 500 f4 mk I. Also, I would advise you to spend a lot of time in study and in practice. BIF is the hardest general field of photography. Failing a 500 F4, a 300 2.8 will work great for you. Also, about fast fstop... I usually shoot a f7.1 on my 7D with a 300 2.8 with 2x TC. I like my results.

study birdsasart-blog.com Also, featheredphotography.com. Glennbartley,com is good too.
 
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chrysoberyl said:
Thanks to all! Now it is clear why I suck so badly at BIF. Clearly my next step is a 7D II. After that, a fast lens (as clearly advised by jrista and strongly implied by AprilForever). And practice. Thanks again.


BIF is not easy. Not by a long shot. I've been doing bird photography for a few years now, and BIF is definitely my weak spot. I've kind of stopped practicing, as I just don't have the lenses for it. A FAST lens is a big plus, so I really think the 70-200 f/2.8 is going to be a good lens to have, with or without a 1.4x TC. If you have the money, the 300 f/2.8 is great. I am not sure about the 500/4 on a 7D II (that's an effective ~810mm focal length...that's really long, makes for a pretty narrow FoV...I have a hard enough time with BIF at 600mm on the FF, let alone 800mm+). I think a 500/4 on a FF would be ok...it still seems a little long to me, especially if you do not already have good BIF skills (if you had good BIF skills, I think it would be excellent, you'll get a lot more detail...but learning on it would be tough, just keeping the bird in the frame would be tough with a 7D II.)
 
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Well, jrista, you have hit upon the biggest factor with me - skill/practice. It took me many shots to get this one. Now that I know the body, I can begin obsessing about a fast lens. The Sigma 120-300 intrigues me, as it is the upper limit right now in affordability.
 

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You don't need that long lenses for BIF, I'm perfectly fine with 300mm on my 7D.

For me, important factors for a good BIF lens are: relatively lightweight, zoom, equiv. ~500+ mm, weathersealed and of course good tracking.
In your case, I would go for the 7DII and the bare 100-400 II. For an area of photography where reliable AF is crucial, I would not rely on a third party lens, despite loving them for anything else.
 
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Fully acknowledging the 6D's AF performance compared to more capable bodies... I carry two 6D's and haven't had the woes that some claim here on this forum. While I don't shoot a lot of BIF, I have been able to accomplish this task with my 6D and also woefully under-acclaimed 100-400L. (inserting a little sarcasm - sorry). I'll surely admit your success rate will likely be higher with a camera designed for this type of AF... Also, based on my empirical study of posted galleries here and elsewhere... the number of people out trying to capture fast moving birds at night must be an incredibly high number (also-sorry for the sarcasm).

As far as my use of the 6D's center AF point... I also am a clay pigeon shooter as well as a hunter... I shoot a shotgun 9 months out of the year at regional, national and world-level events... it's possibly that my ability to move the camera to track a subject offsets the 6D's ability to AF/track??? Just throwing an olive branch to those who make claims of the 6D's lack of worth.

That said - if you're not 100% sure about switching to 7DII at the current prices, I'm sure you can find a 7D around used for a VERY good price and possibly even more reasonable as we start into the black-friday week etc.


Sorry - I woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning... literally... the underside of it.
 
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Sarcasm aside, I wouldn't say anyone shoots birds at "night." I've shot some Night Herons "at night"...as in it was quite dark, late twilight, not post-sunset but "night":

night-heron-at-night-1-of-1.jpg


Not in flight, though...that's pretty much a miserable failure at night regardless of the gear. :o

Birds are often quite active during crepuscular hours, where the light can be many orders of magnitude lower than during full daytime. Some of the most dramatic BIF shots I've seen come from these hours...so having a fast lens and good AF system that can handle it (if BIF is a primary goal...that's what we are talking about here, BIF as a primary form of photography, not something done occasionally) is very important.

In great light, just about any camera will do, and just about any f/5.6 lens will do as well. However, if you don't want to be fighting against the gear in non-ideal circumstances, I think you have to be realistic about what kind of equipment you need, vs. what kind of equipment you can get away with. I think you can get away with a 6D and 100-400mm, for sure. Even the 100-400mm Mk I. I cannot recommend that combination if you want to actually really DO bird in flight photography as a primary thing. If BIF is a primary form of photography for someone, I feel it is my responsibility to steer them away from the "get away with it" gear, and towards the "nail it every time" gear.

In all seriousness. :P No sarcasm here. (I guess I woke up on the right side of the bed...oh, right....I didn't wake up at all, guess that's one benefit of insomnia, no side of the bed to worry about, period! ???
 
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