6D autofocus capabilites: let's bust some myths about it

[jeffa4444]

We own a still camera rental business and Ive been privaliged to use the Canon and Nikon high end pro cameras along with all the best lenses. You can shoot charts, MTF, calibrate etc etc. fact is you never understand a tool or how to use it, maximise its potential and minimise its weaknesses until you have used it extensively. Many of the comments on this thread are "guess work" they have not reflected real world use. Since my previous post Ive used the Canon 5d MKIII its truly an awsome camera but does it give measurable better quality for landscape over the 6d? Frankly no. Most of the time landscape photographers manually focus or use the center spot in single shot mode as you want as much in focus as possible anyway (unless artistically you dont). The 6d is not a camera for sports or wildlife (unless that wildlife is static) but as a street photography camera or landscape camera for those where full frame is important but so is budget aside from the Nikon D610 or the new Sony A7 which are equally impressive cameras for their price the 6d will not disappoint or give any less sharp shots.

 

[Marsu42]

Many of the comments on this thread are "guess work" they have not reflected real world use. Since my previous post Ive used the Canon 5d MKIII its truly an awsome camera but does it give measurable better quality for landscape over the 6d? Frankly no.

I don't think anybody is debating if the 5d3 is useful over the 6d for landscape - except maybe the built-in raw hdr, the 6d only has jpeg and due to hilarious firmware crippling doesn't save the source files.

The 6d is not a camera for sports or wildlife (unless that wildlife is static) but as a street photography camera or landscape camera for those where full frame is important but so is budget aside from the Nikon D610 or the new Sony A7 which are equally impressive cameras for their price the 6d will not disappoint or give any less sharp shots.

In credit to Canon, I just picked up a 6d promo brochure at the local cps and they only market the 6d for landscape, though they do describe it as a capable 11 pt af system which doesn't quite hit the mark...

... what they don't do is recommend it for street photography as you just did, and for a reason. I often shoot (static) wildlife with it and with a f2.8 lens and no af expansion the 6d simply misses more for the "quick snap" shot type from the hip if you don't carefully af to a high-contrast part and then recompose.

 

[CarlTN]

We own a still camera rental business and Ive been privaliged to use the Canon and Nikon high end pro cameras along with all the best lenses. You can shoot charts, MTF, calibrate etc etc. fact is you never understand a tool or how to use it, maximise its potential and minimise its weaknesses until you have used it extensively. Many of the comments on this thread are "guess work" they have not reflected real world use. Since my previous post Ive used the Canon 5d MKIII its truly an awsome camera but does it give measurable better quality for landscape over the 6d? Frankly no. Most of the time landscape photographers manually focus or use the center spot in single shot mode as you want as much in focus as possible anyway (unless artistically you dont). The 6d is not a camera for sports or wildlife (unless that wildlife is static) but as a street photography camera or landscape camera for those where full frame is important but so is budget aside from the Nikon D610 or the new Sony A7 which are equally impressive cameras for their price the 6d will not disappoint or give any less sharp shots.

The 6D can work quite well for wildlife in motion. I've used mine extensively for this, besides landscape and still wildlife, so what I say is definitely the opposite of "guesswork." I've also used it for aerial photography, shooting out the open window of a Cessna. As has been shown at a couple of websites recently, the 6D's dynamic range, and especially its S/N ratio, in the ISO range between 1000 and 10,000, is a noticeable improvement over the Nikon D600 and D610. If the A7 uses the same sensor and processing, its result would be the same as the D600 or 610. Ergonomically the 6D is a good bit ahead of the Sony and especially the Nikon, as well. Not to mention the 6D costs substantially less, especially at recent sale prices. And let's face it, as a system Canon is without peer.

 

[Marsu42]

The 6D can work quite well for wildlife in motion. I've used mine extensively for this, besides landscape and still wildlife, so what I say is definitely the opposite of "guesswork."

Yes, *can* ... but most likely it won't. It's great you're happy with your 6d and are promoting it, I'm rather happy with mine esp. having saved €1200 vs. 5d3.

However the only situation when the 6d is appropriate for wildlife is in bright high-contrast (non-cross points) bright light (+0.5ev outer points) when all the 6d's af points cover the subject... the only situation I can imagine is an elephant running towards you. In all other cases, 6d & wildlife is a hit and miss game, you will of course get *some* good shots and can proudly post them as "6d wildlife", but you'll lose a lot because the af doesn't lock on.

 

[CarlTN]

The 6D can work quite well for wildlife in motion. I've used mine extensively for this, besides landscape and still wildlife, so what I say is definitely the opposite of "guesswork."

Yes, *can* ... but most likely it won't. It's great you're happy with your 6d and are promoting it, I'm rather happy with mine esp. having saved €1200 vs. 5d3.

However the only situation when the 6d is appropriate for wildlife is in bright high-contrast (non-cross points) bright light (+0.5ev outer points) when all the 6d's af points cover the subject... the only situation I can imagine is an elephant running towards you. In all other cases, 6d & wildlife is a hit and miss game, you will of course get *some* good shots and can proudly post them as "6d wildlife", but you'll lose a lot because the af doesn't lock on.

The AF does lock on especially in bright light, with center point only. Just because it won't lock on and get 9 out of 10 shots in razor sharp focus in servo mode, with all points active, is no reason to say it can't lock on at all. With center point, trust me it locks on. In dim light in servo mode, especially with a lens faster than f/4, yes it will be more hit or miss...but that's not what you're saying. You're saying in bright light it can't ever lock on regardless if it's with center point only, or with all points, and that's definitely false. Center point is a lock...at least with mine. Yours is probably just due to you ...

 

[Marsu42]

In all other cases, 6d & wildlife is a hit and miss game, you will of course get *some* good shots and can proudly post them as "6d wildlife", but you'll lose a lot because the af doesn't lock on.

The AF does lock on especially in bright light, with center point only. Just because it won't lock on and get 9 out of 10 shots in razor sharp focus in servo mode, with all points active, is no reason to say it can't lock on at all. ... You're saying in bright light it can't ever lock on regardless if it's with center point only, or with all points, and that's definitely false.

I didn't write "at all", there's little reason discussing if you don't read the other party's posts.

With center point, trust me it locks on.

Last not least, please note that the 6d af indeed never "locks on" at all unlike more capable af systems - the 6d doesn't do any af handover, it doesn't recognize object or patterns, it just happens to af what is on the selected af points (or not) and then does a bit of extrapolation considering the object's movement direction.

 

[CarlTN]

In all other cases, 6d & wildlife is a hit and miss game, you will of course get *some* good shots and can proudly post them as "6d wildlife", but you'll lose a lot because the af doesn't lock on.

The AF does lock on especially in bright light, with center point only. Just because it won't lock on and get 9 out of 10 shots in razor sharp focus in servo mode, with all points active, is no reason to say it can't lock on at all. ... You're saying in bright light it can't ever lock on regardless if it's with center point only, or with all points, and that's definitely false.

I didn't write "at all", there's little reason discussing if you don't read the other party's posts.

With center point, trust me it locks on.

Last not least, please note that the 6d af indeed never "locks on" at all unlike more capable af systems - the 6d doesn't do any af handover, it doesn't recognize object or patterns, it just happens to af what is on the selected af points (or not) and then does a bit of extrapolation considering the object's movement direction.

Your definition of "lock on" is different from mine. Mine is, it acquires AF and holds it. Yours is, there has to be a handoff to other points. Of course there isn't a good handoff to other points, we both know that. But that was by design. They gave it crappy single line outer points, then crippled the AF processing to make it default to using those outer points, rather than giving equal or superior priority to the center point (with all engaged)...even if a damned zebra stripe is hovering behind that center point!!

I mean, you seem to keep harping on the fact that the AF sensor is a far cry from the 5D3 AF sensor. So what? Nobody said it's a great AF sensor...it kind of sucks. But to say you can't use it for anything in motion just because it can't use all the AF points, is silly. You simply point the center point on the subject, and away you go. If you can't do that, then that's not my fault. I can...

 

[Marsu42]

The 6D can work quite well for wildlife in motion.

Nobody said it's a great AF sensor...it kind of sucks.

Sorry CarlTN, I don't see the sense of discussing with someone who manages to contradict himself inside a few posts ... That's what another member of CR recently labeled as "unreasonable" if I recall correctly, in this intensity it sounds a bit like a "5d3 inferiority complex"

It's not black and white ("sucks", "work quite well"), but the 6d is somewhere in the middle with a tendency to one side depending on the shooting conditions. It's fine if you want to have less bulk and save €1200, but you simply have to expect less keepers with af on a fast lens or object movement, and you cannot really compensate for this with technique. But really, it's great you're so happy with your 6d, nothing wrong with that unless another potential 6d/5d3 buyer happens to take your word for it.

 

[CarlTN]

The 6D can work quite well for wildlife in motion.

Nobody said it's a great AF sensor...it kind of sucks.

Sorry CarlTN, I don't see the sense of discussing with someone who manages to contradict himself inside a few posts ... That's what another member of CR recently labeled as "unreasonable" if I recall correctly, in this intensity it sounds a bit like a "5d3 inferiority complex"

It's not black and white ("sucks", "work quite well"), but the 6d is somewhere in the middle with a tendency to one side depending on the shooting conditions. It's fine if you want to have less bulk and save €1200, but you simply have to expect less keepers with af on a fast lens or object movement, and you cannot really compensate for this with technique. But really, it's great you're so happy with your 6d, nothing wrong with that unless another potential 6d/5d3 buyer happens to take your word for it.

Not contradicting myself, it works in single point mode, as I keep saying over and over. You're simply arguing for arguments' sake, that's all. Use your 6D for whatever you wish, and I will do the same. But I'm not going to sit back and have someone state emphatically that it can't be used for something when it can, and it works quite well. Over half the shots in focus is generally a worst case scenario, in my experience with mine. That's not 9 or 10 out of 10 shots...but nobody expects it to do that. Doesn't mean over half those shots aren't in sharp focus, though. Over half is what I call working "quite well", and it's not a contradiction...so take a chill pill on that one.

You're projecting a bit, it's you who seems to want a 5D3, not me. I might want a 5D4, a 1DX, or whatever else in the future, but not now. Again I've used a 5D3, and I didn't need to buy one.

Don't presume to call me a liar here, or that I'm misleading people. Because I'm not. It's not your job to be calling me out, either...you're not the 6D police, the Canon police, or my police.

I've been honest with everything I've said here. You feel the need to cast aspersions, and it's not necessary or accurate in this case.

 

[Marsu42]

Don't presume to call me a liar here, or that I'm misleading people. Because I'm not. It's not your job to be calling me out, either...you're not the 6D police, the Canon police, or my police.

Ok, I'm quitting here, I know others did before in discussions with you - you're simply not reading what I wrote (I didn't call you a liar, I did say you're contradicting yourself or are at least so imprecise that there's no telling the difference).

Not contradicting myself, it works in single point mode, as I keep saying over and over.

I'm not around here to get into arguments, and you're correct, it is not my "job" to call you out, though I felt urged to correct some points when you clearly don't even know how the 6d af system works, so your comments on when and if "it works" can only be seen in light of this: http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php/topic,18417.msg347357.html#msg347357

 

[CarlTN]

Don't presume to call me a liar here, or that I'm misleading people. Because I'm not. It's not your job to be calling me out, either...you're not the 6D police, the Canon police, or my police.

Ok, I'm quitting here, I know others did before in discussions with you - you're simply not reading what I wrote (I didn't call you a liar, I did say you're contradicting yourself or are at least so imprecise that there's no telling the difference).

You implied it when you say I am misleading people. You'll never quit until I admit that the 6D AF does not work in servo autofocus mode with a lens f/2.8 or faster. I'm sorry but it does work, regardless of what you think is the nature of its center point. The micro errors, or whatever you call them, are either being overcome somehow, or again...present themselves on some lenses and not on others. I've not tried my 6D on a 70-200 f/2.8 ii. If that's the lens you're having problems with on yours, then I suggest not using it. It's entirely possible that this lens, in particular, is going to play havoc with the 6D's autofocus in servo mode. I presume both it, and the 300 f/2.8, are supposed to be the fastest autofocusing lenses that Canon makes (if not that any manufacturer makes). If their motors are that fast and hyper sensitive, then they certainly would react with the 6D's autofocus while in servo mode, making it jitter as it hunts. I can imagine it happening, anyway.

What I have done, is try it IN SERVO MODE with the lenses I have, which are currently the 70-300L, 70-200 f/4L, 135L, 40 pancake, Sigma 24mm f/1.8, and Sigma 120-400 f/4.5-5.6 (my Voigtander is a manual focus).

Frankly with all of the above, I get at least 6 out of 10 shots in razor sharp focus in servo mode with center point selected, even in low indoor light. In bright outdoor light, it jumps from 7 to at times 9 out of 10. (The Sigma 24mm f/1.8 is less consistent because its AFMA varies every time I use it. Certainly some of this could be due to the camera's autofocus "inability", but I really feel most of it is the lens. It's AF motor is not silent, and it also seems to vary depending on if I place the lens cap on, between uses.)

As I said either here or in some other thread, my friend has the 70-200 f/2.8 ii, and he recently bought the 6D, and sold his 7D on ebay. He's had no complaints out of his 6D. At some point I will attempt to try his 70-200 on my 6D, and see just how "innacurate" it is. If the hit rate falls below 6 out of 10 in servo mode, with center point only, consistently, I will post my findings on here.

But you know what? It won't matter, because according to you I don't know what I'm talking about, and so whatever I say doesn't matter. That's fine though, because it actually does matter, and I do know what I see when I take pictures, at least.

 

[Loswr]

;D

Faster than a speeding 5DIII! More powerful than a 1D X! Able to leap tall 7Ds in a single bound! Look, up in the sky! It's taking pictures of birds! It's taking pictures of planes!

It's SuperCarl!

Yes, it's SuperCarl, strange visitor from Canon HQ, who came to Earth with powers and abilities far beyond those of mortal cameras. SuperCarl, who can change the course of mighty product development, bend CF cards in his bare hands, and who, disguised as CarlTN, mild-mannered poster on a great rumor forum, fights a never-ending battle for truth, justice and the 6D way.

 

[Tom W]

This reminds me of the discussions we had on various forums (forii?) concerning the AF of the original 5D. It was probably the most loved, and simultaneously hated camera of all when it was first introduced.

 

[Marsu42]

Yes, it's SuperCarl, strange visitor from Canon HQ, who came to Earth with powers and abilities far beyond those of mortal cameras.

I get at least 6 out of 10 shots in razor sharp focus

If I ever get in the need for a superhero to rescue me from the evil SONY with his/her proton laser beam, I'd positively insist that his/her definition of "works quite well" for it is better than "6 out of 10" - it seems our hero has come near the very rare NIKONium element which renders this superpower useless :->

 

[Janbo Makimbo]

If you can't get decent pictures out of a 6D then there is some serious wrong with you as a photographer!!

 

[dgatwood]

It's not black and white ("sucks", "work quite well"), but the 6d is somewhere in the middle with a tendency to one side depending on the shooting conditions. It's fine if you want to have less bulk and save €1200, but you simply have to expect less keepers with af on a fast lens or object movement, and you cannot really compensate for this with technique. But really, it's great you're so happy with your 6d, nothing wrong with that unless another potential 6d/5d3 buyer happens to take your word for it.

On the flip side, with the -3 EV center point, you might get more keepers in low light with the 6D than anything else Canon sells (including the 1DX). I've found its low-light focusing to be just plain spectacular.

 

[candc]

the 6d af is really basic but it seems accurate. i have been trying it out and it focuses in ai servo mode fast with the sigma 120-300 using the center point. i have tried it out and its good on cars and people but not so good with birds. its hard to keep the center point on the target and the other points are too far apart, you need a denser af point spread for that.

as dgatwood says, its fantastic in low light.

 

[Janbo Makimbo]

It's not black and white ("sucks", "work quite well"), but the 6d is somewhere in the middle with a tendency to one side depending on the shooting conditions. It's fine if you want to have less bulk and save €1200, but you simply have to expect less keepers with af on a fast lens or object movement, and you cannot really compensate for this with technique. But really, it's great you're so happy with your 6d, nothing wrong with that unless another potential 6d/5d3 buyer happens to take your word for it.

On the flip side, with the -3 EV center point, you might get more keepers in low light with the 6D than anything else Canon sells (including the 1DX). I've found its low-light focusing to be just plain spectacular.

+1

 

[Loswr]

On the flip side, with the -3 EV center point, you might get more keepers in low light with the 6D than anything else Canon sells (including the 1DX). I've found its low-light focusing to be just plain spectacular.

How do you define 'low light'? For example, the difference between shooting at -2 EV and-3 EV could mean 1/15 s, f/2.8, ISO 51200 vs. 102400. Neither is very usable from an IQ standpoint. What most people call 'low light' is generally substantially brighter than either spec.

 

[Marsu42]

If you can't get decent pictures out of a 6D then there is some serious wrong with you as a photographer!!

+1, and I'd even expand on that: you can't get decent pictures out of any *Rebel* then there is something seriously wrong with you as a photographer.