justsomedude said:
Dude, if you're interested in trying out micro adjustments, I did some experimentation with it a while ago and reported my experience with it (for both 7D and 5DII) in this thread.
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7D Firmware 1.2.5 Posted Again
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Dude, if you're interested in trying out micro adjustments, I did some experimentation with it a while ago and reported my experience with it (for both 7D and 5DII) in this thread.
justsomedude said:
I found it extremely easy to do with a makeshift similar to a Lens Align Pro (basically a ruler and a small target). Helped a bunch and is totally non-invasive in that its just a setting on a menu that you can undo at any time. I'd sure try it out since it's free and only takes a few minutes...might save you sending all your stuff in to Canon, though I'm sure they'd fix you up. My new 50d seems to be off 5 or 6 clicks since my new 100mm L macro on this body needed +6 and a new Sigma needed +5...so I'm thinking its the body not the lenses...but very simple to fix no matter what is to blame (and who knows what it will be for the next lens?).
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Thanks for all of the info and advice everyone!
This kind of feedback is certainly reassuring, and helping me come to terms with my 7D purchase. Perhaps my 40D was just right on the tolerance line with my set of lenses. I had the 7D boxed for another trip to Canon Service, but I'm going to unbox her instead and do some MF adjustments tonight. Heck, they already made "electronic adjustments" to the AF assembly, probably not worth a second trip at this point.
I'll whip up a chart and calibrator tool and see what I come up with. Thanks again! I'm already feeling a heck of a lot better!!
This kind of feedback is certainly reassuring, and helping me come to terms with my 7D purchase. Perhaps my 40D was just right on the tolerance line with my set of lenses. I had the 7D boxed for another trip to Canon Service, but I'm going to unbox her instead and do some MF adjustments tonight. Heck, they already made "electronic adjustments" to the AF assembly, probably not worth a second trip at this point.
I'll whip up a chart and calibrator tool and see what I come up with. Thanks again! I'm already feeling a heck of a lot better!!
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skitron said:
A click on one body does not appear to change the AF the same as on a different model. I recall a statement from Canon confirming this, but I'm not going to search for it.
I have a 5D MK II and a 1D MK III, and at least a dozen lenses.
On my 5D MK II, my 24-105mm L required a +2 , but it really didn't matter much. However, with my 35mmL which also required a +2, it made a huge difference, probably due to the shallow depth of field.
On my 1D MK III, only the 35mmL required a +17, while all the others are fine. I just bought a 2nd 35mmL, it did not require any adjustment on the 5D MK II, but I haven't tested it on the 1D yet.
You definitely cannot assume the same correction on different bodies, I believe the firmware as well as body tolerances are in play.
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scalesusa said:
I tested this assumption by comparing MAs for a 7D and for a 5D2, for 7 prime lenses, and got the following correlation plot:
In this particular case, there appears to be a linear correlation MA_5D2 = MA_7D + 9.7, with an error in the mean of 1.3 and a scatter of 3.2. In principle this means that there is a "body MA" and a "lens MA" that are additive, and if you are lazy you can determine body+lens MAs for all lenses on one body, and then apply the "body MA" difference and apply the determined MAs on the second body. E.g., in my case I could measure the MA for a lens on the 7D and then just add 9.7 to get the MA on the 5D2. As seen in the graph, however, this isn't 100% fool proof, and there appear to be irregularities I cannot explain but may depend on a number of things. Also, the correlation is even less obvious for the 7D/5D2 numbers neuroanatomist find (which show overall smaller corrections [3 to 4 compared to my ~9]; he must have a better lens collection than I do).
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I have a 7D with a bunch of lenses including the 17-40mm f/4L which I have micro-adjusted to -4. At that point I have tested the AF by taking 10 shot with the AF and 1 shot with MF and all 10 shots are consistent and exactly the same as my 1 shot with MF. Micro-adjustment goes a long way and you do not need that $120 calibrating tool. I used the box of my 7D to take photos of the serial number while on a tripod; works just as well.
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neuroanatomist said:Macadameane said:
Don't hold your breath...
I was coming here to beat this dead horse myself. Seriously Canon, it can't be -that- difficult. Within a week or two of having access to the firmware, amateur hackers are able to do this kind of thing.
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Micro Adjust was put in the 7D so people can make their own adjustments as needed instead of constantly sending them into canon. Also keep in mind you may want to occasionally recheck you lenses every so often. Changes in temperature, humidity, elevation, etc can slightly change how the lens functions, hence why most lenses will let you focus past infinity. So feel free to play around with it and if it still is soft, then send it into Canon. Canon Rumors posted an article not long ago about variance in body models and lens models and how they mesh up. Sounds like it applies to this. I've found to the 7D in similar settings to show higher sharpness than the 50D, 5D m2, and most of my previous cameras. It can be slightly noisier than older models like the 20D to 40D, but just slightly but sharper nevertheless. There is a ton of Up-side of this camera but you need a lot of patience to learn to harness all of it's power to get the most out of it.
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Hey all...
I did some MFA's last night and got +16 and +14 on my 50mm f/1.8 and my Tokina 11-16 f/2.8, respectively. The results are now damn sharp, but these settings seem VERY high to me. Especially when I see people posting most settings in the 2-5 ranges.
Does this seem normal? :-\
UPDATE: This is weird... My EF-S kit lens (18-55) came in perfect - zero adjustments. I have an important shoot scheduled next week so I need to hold on to my body and lenses for now, but I think I may send the 50mm in with the body after that. That +16 and +14 bothers me a little.
I did some MFA's last night and got +16 and +14 on my 50mm f/1.8 and my Tokina 11-16 f/2.8, respectively. The results are now damn sharp, but these settings seem VERY high to me. Especially when I see people posting most settings in the 2-5 ranges.
Does this seem normal? :-\
UPDATE: This is weird... My EF-S kit lens (18-55) came in perfect - zero adjustments. I have an important shoot scheduled next week so I need to hold on to my body and lenses for now, but I think I may send the 50mm in with the body after that. That +16 and +14 bothers me a little.
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That does seem high but on the otherhand if it works why sweat it? Obviously Canon felt the range needed to be +-20 to cover "reasonably expected cases" and that is why they made the range the way they did. But I can understand wanting it to take less and sending it in to get it closer.
Anyway, very good news and glad you have a camera that can do this adjustment!
Also, consider the fact that you can adjust both the "body" and "individual lens". So in your case maybe do the "body" +7 then your kit lens would be -7 the other two would be +9 and +7.
Anyway, very good news and glad you have a camera that can do this adjustment!
Also, consider the fact that you can adjust both the "body" and "individual lens". So in your case maybe do the "body" +7 then your kit lens would be -7 the other two would be +9 and +7.
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justsomedude said:
It does seem high - likely the body and those two lenses are 'off' in the same direction, leading to a large adjustment for the combination, whereas the kit lens is 'off' in the opposite direction.
With adjustments that large, I'd definitely consider sending it in. Might want to send both Canon lenses in, lest they adjust the body to match the 50/1.4, and you end up needing a -16 for the kit lens...
skitron said:
It doesn't work like that - the AFMA C.Fn has three options:
0: Disable
1: Adjust all by same amount
2: Adjust by lens
#1 is the 'body adjustment' and #2 is the 'lens adjustment', but your suggestion would require the ability to set the C.Fn to 1+2, and you can only make one selection.
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justsomedude said:
I have a 50/1.4 that needs similar amounts on my 5DII (and a bit less on my 7D.) I wouldn't worry about the numbers unless you have some L lenses that dial in at similar values. Be carefull w/ the zoom BTW. You need to measure it at different zoom settings. If the values differ, choose a setting that corrects the long end better since the MA is less critical on the short side.
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Thanks for all the additional posts guys... I think I'm definitely going to be sending her in next week.
In addition to the +16, it seems that AF only works reliably about 45-55% of the time... which is still an improvement over the neutral setting. Using the 50mm, focus is still random on some photos. That is, sometimes images are focused, then a few are not. I'm getting a combination of both front and back focusing still, even with the MFA set. Very very weird.
With 50% consistency, it's better than the 10% I had earlier, so I can get by with this for the time being. But I think I'm going to take neuroanatomist's advice, and send the body and all of my Canon lenses in for testing/calibration (when I have the time). Something definitely seems amiss here.
In addition to the +16, it seems that AF only works reliably about 45-55% of the time... which is still an improvement over the neutral setting. Using the 50mm, focus is still random on some photos. That is, sometimes images are focused, then a few are not. I'm getting a combination of both front and back focusing still, even with the MFA set. Very very weird.
With 50% consistency, it's better than the 10% I had earlier, so I can get by with this for the time being. But I think I'm going to take neuroanatomist's advice, and send the body and all of my Canon lenses in for testing/calibration (when I have the time). Something definitely seems amiss here.
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justsomedude said:
Send it in if it'll help ya sleep better at night... read this article http://www.canonrumors.com/tech-articles/this-lens-is-soft-and-other-myths/
It talks about how if the body is just slightly off and the lens is just slight off in the other directions, (but within the acceptable range of variance) then the amounts can seem dramatic. Also remember these can change slightly depending where you are and how much humidity, elevation, and frankly how much you use your lens and so the MA could be 15 one week, 18, the next, 10 the other. It's a moving target, however that's why they put that in there to begin with. Canon can definitely fine tune each and make sure they are closer to the sweet spot but dont forget even after that, the MA could change just to much even after, it's not really a defect in the lens as much as it's a change in the surrounding conditions affecting the lens. I hope this helps and I'm glad it's functioning a little bit more reliable than before.
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awinphoto said:
Awin, thanks for the link - a good article indeed.
So let me ask you - do you think I'm being OCD? Too much of a pixel peeper? I guess I'm just having a hard time reconciling the performance of the 7D compared to my 40D where, with the same lenses, everything was sharp. Granted - that was 10MP vs. 18MP - so I realize some details were missing on the 40D. So perhaps it's not the best comparison.
What do you honestly think? Is it worth the send-in, or should I just leave it be?
UPDATE: I've just discovered that lighting plays a key role in the focusing accuracy issue on my 7D. In broad daylight, and well lit interiors, focus is almost spot on at +16 --- and VERY consistent. However, the misses start occurring in any kind of "less than perfect light". This is even in a moderately lit room, with some natural light. I did some tests in my office at work where I have some big fluorescent ceiling lights, and a large window. It's not "dark" by any means (especially on a day like today in Denver, where I'm getting a lot of sunlight), but it's definitely not broad daylight. In that scenario the misses start popping up, even when focusing on high contrast areas (e.g. book bindings on my bookshelf). It seams as when the light gets "flat", the AF system really starts to struggle... severely. But hard sunlight really helps for providing sharp and consistent focus. Anyone else have this experience?
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justsomedude
New 7D owners are often suprised to get oof photos after owning a 40D (My Case). It took a little learning to set shutter speeds about twice what I used for the 40D or 1/ 2 X focal length.
Some of the Canon notes mentioned the need to set faster shutter speeds as well. I returned my 7D after I realized that it was just going to sit while I used my 5D MK II. Eventually I picked up a good used 1D MK III for $2100 and it gets lots of use, particularly outdoors.
If I was going to be a wildlife or bird photographer (Long Range ones), I'd say the 7D or a used 1D MK III are your best bet in that price range.
New 7D owners are often suprised to get oof photos after owning a 40D (My Case). It took a little learning to set shutter speeds about twice what I used for the 40D or 1/ 2 X focal length.
Some of the Canon notes mentioned the need to set faster shutter speeds as well. I returned my 7D after I realized that it was just going to sit while I used my 5D MK II. Eventually I picked up a good used 1D MK III for $2100 and it gets lots of use, particularly outdoors.
If I was going to be a wildlife or bird photographer (Long Range ones), I'd say the 7D or a used 1D MK III are your best bet in that price range.
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justsomedude said:
Perhaps not quite that bad, as I had no real trouble achieving a focus lock (and good focus) indoors at night under 'normal' tungsten lighting (~120 W overhead, maybe with a 60 W floor lamp or two). But when the light gets rather dim, the 7D struggles (whereas the center AF point on my 5DII has no trouble).
What I will say is that when doing an AFMA calibration, having bright, consistent lighting is a must. With my LensAlign Pro, I aim a 150 W-equivalent gooseneck lamp at the focus target from a distance of about 2 feet, and separetely light the DoF ruler (with a continuous light at an appropriate angle to avoid reflection, or more recently with a PocketWizard-triggered off-camera Speedlite).
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justsomedude said:
justsomedude, I'm glad you found that link useful. To answer your questions, without with you or seeing your camera and lens and settings, it's hard to say either way. What do you shoot? Do you shoot at the high burst rates (8 frames a second) or do you have your burst rate the lower (3 frames a second) or single shot? What arsenal of lenses are you pairing with this lens? How old are the lenses? What focus modes are you using and what in what shooting conditions do you primarily shoot. Should I assume you shoot all manual or do you occasional switch to the green program mode or full auto mode?
To be honest, with my 7D, the lenses I pair 99% of the time with it is my sigma 10-20mm (architecture only), Canon 17-40 L (on my camera most of the time as a walk around lens), Canon 50mm 1.4 for portraiture and when I'm in extreme low light situations, and Canon 70-200 F4. Lenses I've also used with this camera either through Canon CPS or lenses i've sold were the sigma 135-400, Canon 24-70 L, Canon 24-105 L, Canon 35mm L, 50mm 1.2 and the 24mm TS. As far as shooting indoors low light, as with just about, try to use the widest aperture you have in your personal because the camera (all cameras) requires the most light possible to accurately get the AF motor to give the best results. 2.8, in some instances, can be not wide enough in which I break out the 50mm or borrow from CPS. That being said, I even have been able to get razor sharp images focused with my 17-40 of my son sleeping in the middle of the night with his light off with no lamp assist (trying not to wake him up) and the thing got focus even though I physically couldn't see squat through the viewfinder. That should be seen as an exception of the rule, but for what it's worth...
7D settings to keep in mind, I dont know offhand what number it is, but in your AF custom settings there's a setting on focus priority or speed priority (i have mine on focus priority) and also assuming you aren't shooting fast action, I would recommend using your spot focus with the small focus spot within the focus spot. When you need critical focus, that can be hard to the keep the camera steady with such a small focus spot, it's probably the most accurate. The regular single point focus is ok for 90% of the time. In motion or fast action I may bump it up to the single but 4 surrounding spots that looks like a plus sign. On the 9 point focus or the full auto af I'm sure it works good, however I have just enough OCD in me to know better.
As I said on several forums, when I got the camera (an early adopter) the first shots taken with it when I slapped on my 17-40 were OOF (defaulted at full auto). Not even close. But then I kinda dug into the manual, got settings the way I liked them, learned to cycle through the AF modes which wasn't as intuitive for me at first to learn, however I quickly enough learned to grasp that, and made sure my shutter and ISO were realistic then I was happy. At my kids daycare, I've had a contract to do the school spring and fall photos and used the same lab and over the scope of 3 years I have used the 30D for my first shoot, 50D for a year, then got the 7D and from the 30D to 50D, I never was blown away with the 50D prints... They were ok, but not as clean as the 30Ds, however with the 7D comparing to my 30D (RIP) there's no comparison, the 7D photos are far superior in focus, almost too good if you get my jest. Keep in mind between the 30D and 7D, the 7D will show far more imperfection in the lens and focus issues at 100% than the 30D could even hint at, so lens selection can be more critical.
Should you send yours in, only you can answer that. I cant be there with you however if you wish, feel free to email me if you want to talk more about the 7D and if you want to arrange a time for a call if you feel you need it. I dont know how much canon charges for a repair of the MA and MA of each lens in your set, and I believe you said you were an early adopter, so I assume your 7D is just out of warranty so whether you feel the cost would be worth it, I dont know.
On full disclosure, I shot a rock group at a local venue here at night with the horrible stage lights alternating between the 35mm 1.4 and 50mm 1.4 and while the 35mm L had more keepers than the 50mm 1.4 with the micro motor, the 50mm wasn't anything to sneeze at either. I would assume at that low light venue shooting at 1.4-1.8 I had a combined keeper rate of around 70-80% with a few front focused/rear focused and a few soft (not fast enough shutter, however not a camera problem, an operator problem). I would probably say that's a more realistic stress test for the 7D's auto focus, at most photos ranged from ISO 1000-1600.
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