7D sensor poll

[AprilForever]

both are half baked for video. i say no for 7D

I've shot an Indie film with a 7D... looked great, but, the script was horrible, so, no, I won't tell you what it is, but it did look great...

 

[briansquibb]

Indeed, they have said the ASP-H is dead... Long Live the APS-C!!!

Have you a reference for this?

 

[distant.star]

Indeed, they have said the ASP-H is dead... Long Live the APS-C!!!

Have you a reference for this?

"They," man, THEY.

True Heavensent Ethereal Yammerers

Never, ever wrong.

 

[Loswr]

Indeed, they have said the ASP-H is dead... Long Live the APS-C!!!

Have you a reference for this?

FWIW, I have a reference...for the exact opposite.

From Doug Brown's interview with Chuck Westfall about the 1D X announcement:

DB: Moving forward, has Canon dropped the APS-H sensor from its future plans?
CW: The 1.3 crop sensor is not being killed off. Canon is keeping all options open for future products.

 

[briansquibb]

Indeed, they have said the ASP-H is dead... Long Live the APS-C!!!

Have you a reference for this?

FWIW, I have a reference...for the exact opposite.

From Doug Brown's interview with Chuck Westfall about the 1D X announcement:

DB: Moving forward, has Canon dropped the APS-H sensor from its future plans?
CW: The 1.3 crop sensor is not being killed off. Canon is keeping all options open for future products.

Thank you - that lines up nicely with other references I have seen for the future of APS-H. Canon have put a lot of money into APS-H - they wont drop it in preference to APS-C which has limited headroom for further development and will cost a fortune to develop it to the current level of APS-H

 

[justsomedude]

+1

The 7D will always remain a crossover body from the pro-sumer to the pro line. Also, as neuroanatomist so eloquently stated, the crop factor of a 7D body gives your lenses extra reach. This makes the 7D body dual purpose, and a great supplement to a full frame body like the 5D; it expands your creative possibilities.

That said, I'd like the 7D to stay APS-C crop.

So what is the upgrade path from the 7D then? Previously the 1.3 crop 1D4 which meant you didn't lose all the 'crop reach' which all the 7D fans seem to love. Is it the ff 1DX which means you lose all the 'crop reach'. Wont you be upset with nowhere to go from the noisy prosumer body?

I think it would remain the same... the upgrade path from the 7D would be the 5D or 1D. I almost see the xxD line being eliminated. The T3i and 60D are very close in price, with no huge difference in feature set. The two lines are almost identical. Also, Canon took a lot of crap for the changes they made from the 50D to the 60D bodies, such as going from magnesium-alloy to a plastic body and adding that tilt-swivel LCD. Many saw the 60D as a downgrade from the 40D and 50D models, at least with respect to being "semi-pro" versus "enthusiast" type camera bodies.

That said, if the xxD line is eliminated, the T3i, T4i, etc. may become Canon's new baseline standard for the "enthusiast" market. The plastic bodies, tilt-swivel LCDs, and marketing focus towards video will remain. Then, the 7D, 6D (if it ever comes to fruition), etc. series will bridge the "semi-pro" gap to the 5D and 1D "pro" series. The words in quotes are my own definitions for the sake of breaking down Canon's markets.

And, for what it's worth, this is all based on assumption from my own personal "vibe" of the Canon's development progress, and tidbits I get from place like CanonRumors and other sources on the internet.

 

[EYEONE]

The H-sensor is dead. It's an anachronism. It existed because there wasn't enough horsepower under the hood to drive a full-frame sports camera.

That's just not really true at all is it? People keep saying this like FF vs. APS-H has anything to do with "horsepower" as in computing power. Canon had 35mm SLRs that shot 10 fps so it wasn't a mechanics were fine. So, they didn't have the computing power to throw 11.6mp around at 10fps when the 1Ds first came out. But that has nothing to do with the FF sensor. And the APS-H sensor of the 1D line wasn't the reason it could shoot 8.5 and 10fps.

APS-H has it's place and I would love to see it used again in a figure camera. It's a good balance of crop, IQ, and getting to use lenses closer to their intended focal length.

 

[liberace]

The H-sensor is dead. It's an anachronism. It existed because there wasn't enough horsepower under the hood to drive a full-frame sports camera.

That's just not really true at all is it? People keep saying this like FF vs. APS-H has anything to do with "horsepower" as in computing power. Canon had 35mm SLRs that shot 10 fps so it wasn't a mechanics were fine. So, they didn't have the computing power to throw 11.6mp around at 10fps when the 1Ds first came out. But that has nothing to do with the FF sensor. And the APS-H sensor of the 1D line wasn't the reason it could shoot 8.5 and 10fps.

APS-H has it's place and I would love to see it used again in a figure camera. It's a good balance of crop, IQ, and getting to use lenses closer to their intended focal length.

Are you certain this is 100% true? I have the faintest of memories that the actual physical size of the sensor played a part in data through-put - at least at one stage of digital camera history, if not now. Which would have the truth sitting somewhere in the middle. Of course my memory could be failing me, it's never been that good

 

[scarbo]

I'm hoping for an APS-C body with 1-series build and AF.

A C-sensor and a 1-series build: 3D would be an excellent name for such a beast.

I'm with you, neuro. The H-sensor is dead. It's an anachronism. It existed because there wasn't enough horsepower under the hood to drive a full-frame sports camera.

Many are assuming that it isn't possible to put H quality in a C sensor, but several years have passed and I'm sure it's easily done now. The 7D sensor is 3 years old. Three years. That's a really long time.

Yes, I chose the APS-H sensor on the assumption the image quality would be significantly better than in the current model, but I didn't factor in improvements in technology.

Looking at the Sony NEX-5N, which has outstanding image quality, we can see what is possible with an APS-C sensor today. If that sensor was even in the current 7D, I would be happy with the APS-C sensor over the APS-H and would buy one instantly.

 

[smirkypants]

Are you certain this is 100% true? I have the faintest of memories that the actual physical size of the sensor played a part in data through-put - at least at one stage of digital camera history, if not now. Which would have the truth sitting somewhere in the middle. Of course my memory could be failing me, it's never been that good

Yes, of course size matters. The bigger you make the sensor, the more sensitive you can make it, all other things being equal. Of course all other things are not equal. Technology improves things as well, so they are constantly able to put better and better onto smaller and smaller. Every time somebody claims a theoretical limit to Moore's Law, a new way of doing things is figured out and computer speed marches forward and I'm sure that Moore's Law more or less applies to digital camera sensors. The next generation of C will get us to where the H was.

As for the H sensor not being dead, corporate spokespersons are programmed to equivocate. "Keeping all options open" is hardly "we are behind the development and implementation of the H sensor 100%, and you'll be seeing new products soon." It gives hope to the people who see it as the best of both worlds, even though it's also the worst of both worlds. I originally bought my 7D+10-22 because I wanted a backup camera and I couldn't do ultra wide on my 1D4. The 14mm was way pricey and only got me to 18mm, and the 5D2+16-35, but... I kinda hate the AF on the 5D2. The more I used the 7D, the more I fell in love with it and now I only bust out the 1D4 when I'm shooting sports outside in poor light.

If there's a new H sensor camera announced in the next 12 months, I'll file down my old digital rebel and eat the dust.

 

[danski0224]

If there's a new H sensor camera announced in the next 12 months, I'll file down my old digital rebel and eat the dust.

Duly noted.

I assume there will be a video of this event, if it happens?

 

[AprilForever]

Indeed. As he mentioned above.

I, however, don't really think we'll see asp-h soon, perhaps ne'er again...

 

[Loswr]

The H-sensor is dead. It's an anachronism. It existed because there wasn't enough horsepower under the hood to drive a full-frame sports camera.

That's just not really true at all is it? People keep saying this like FF vs. APS-H has anything to do with "horsepower" as in computing power. Canon had 35mm SLRs that shot 10 fps so it wasn't a mechanics were fine. So, they didn't have the computing power to throw 11.6mp around at 10fps when the 1Ds first came out. But that has nothing to do with the FF sensor. And the APS-H sensor of the 1D line wasn't the reason it could shoot 8.5 and 10fps.

APS-H has it's place and I would love to see it used again in a figure camera. It's a good balance of crop, IQ, and getting to use lenses closer to their intended focal length.

It's not really 'horsepower' in the sense of data throughput. From that standpoint, 18 MP is 18 MP, whether it's from APS-C or -H or FF, it's the same amount of data. However, where size matters is in clearing the data from the CMOS sensor itself, which must be 'flushed' after each capture (I recall a firmware update for a camera that fixed 'ghost images' which resulted from incompletely flushing the sensor). That may have been a limiting factor in achieving high frame rates with FF that technology has solved.

APS-H was a compromise sensor - for some, the best compromise of some crop factor for extra reach with better IQ, for others, a poor compromise between not enough reach and not good enough IQ, with the added problem of a lack of ultrawide capability with available lenses.

Fundamentally, though, I think the real reason we had an APS-H sensor was rooted in the sensor production process. Why that size, and not some other size? Because at the time, the APS-H size was the largest dimension that could be imaged onto a silicon wafer in a single pass - FF sensors required 3 passes, which substantially increased production costs (not so much the cost of the passes, but rather the increased QC failure rate resulting from multiple passes). Today, I believe that FF sensors no longer require 3 passes (perhaps 2 or even 1), and that factor is contributing to the deprioritizing of the APS-H format.

 

[unfocused]

I really wish people would quit mindlessly hitting the "quote" button without even checking to see if they are quoting the right person.

Attributing a statement from Smirkypants to me is unfair to both of us. If you bothered to read our full posts, you'd see that I was quoting his/her statement and offering agreement and additional observation.

Okay, I'm going to be a bit snarky here, but honestly: if you people know so much about sensor technology, dynamic range, ISO noise, etc. etc., how come you can't figure out how to use a simple forum? It's really not that hard. Hit the preview button to see what your post looks like, proofread it and, if necessary, add a little bit of html code to fix things up.

 

[EYEONE]

I really wish people would quit mindlessly hitting the "quote" button without even checking to see if they are quoting the right person.

Attributing a statement from Smirkypants to me is unfair to both of us. If you bothered to read our full posts, you'd see that I was quoting his/her statement and offering agreement and additional observation.

Okay, I'm going to be a bit snarky here, but honestly: if you people know so much about sensor technology, dynamic range, ISO noise, etc. etc., how come you can't figure out how to use a simple forum? It's really not that hard. Hit the preview button to see what your post looks like, proofread it and, if necessary, add a little bit of html code to fix things up.

Calm down pal, it was an accident. Thee is no need to get bend out of shape and insult people's (my) intelligence.

 

[Loswr]

"Elementary, my dear Watson."

Now, who said that? Sherlock Holmes, as penned by Aurther Conan Doyle, right? Wrong. Those words do not appear as a quotation by any Conan Doyle character. The phrase was first written by P. G. Wodehouse in Psmith Journalist, published in the early 1900s.

I really wish people would quit mindlessly hitting the "quote" button without even checking to see if they are quoting the right person.

Perhaps it was associated with you because you neglected to attribute the quote to anyone? Just sayin'...

 

[briansquibb]

You can quote me instead "APS-H is not dead, it is just resting in a compromising position"

;D ;D ;D

 

[AprilForever]

The H-sensor is dead. It's an anachronism. It existed because there wasn't enough horsepower under the hood to drive a full-frame sports camera.

That's just not really true at all is it? People keep saying this like FF vs. APS-H has anything to do with "horsepower" as in computing power. Canon had 35mm SLRs that shot 10 fps so it wasn't a mechanics were fine. So, they didn't have the computing power to throw 11.6mp around at 10fps when the 1Ds first came out. But that has nothing to do with the FF sensor. And the APS-H sensor of the 1D line wasn't the reason it could shoot 8.5 and 10fps.

APS-H has it's place and I would love to see it used again in a figure camera. It's a good balance of crop, IQ, and getting to use lenses closer to their intended focal length.

It's not really 'horsepower' in the sense of data throughput. From that standpoint, 18 MP is 18 MP, whether it's from APS-C or -H or FF, it's the same amount of data. However, where size matters is in clearing the data from the CMOS sensor itself, which must be 'flushed' after each capture (I recall a firmware update for a camera that fixed 'ghost images' which resulted from incompletely flushing the sensor). That may have been a limiting factor in achieving high frame rates with FF that technology has solved.

APS-H was a compromise sensor - for some, the best compromise of some crop factor for extra reach with better IQ, for others, a poor compromise between not enough reach and not good enough IQ, with the added problem of a lack of ultrawide capability with available lenses.

Fundamentally, though, I think the real reason we had an APS-H sensor was rooted in the sensor production process. Why that size, and not some other size? Because at the time, the APS-H size was the largest dimension that could be imaged onto a silicon wafer in a single pass - FF sensors required 3 passes, which substantially increased production costs (not so much the cost of the passes, but rather the increased QC failure rate resulting from multiple passes). Today, I believe that FF sensors no longer require 3 passes (perhaps 2 or even 1), and that factor is contributing to the deprioritizing of the APS-H format.

Interesting technical note! I really like the ASP-C because of the reach it gives me... if they would put asp-c in a 1D body...

 

[Loswr]

Or, how about: "Whoo-hoo-hoo, look who knows so much. It just so happens that APS-H is only MOSTLY dead. There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead. Mostly dead is slightly alive." (Miracle Max in The Princess Bride, sort of...)

I really like the ASP-C because of the reach it gives me... if they would put asp-c in a 1D body...

Exactly what I'm hoping for...but they can wait a year or so, until my gear fund recovers from the 1D X, and I'm looking to replace the 7D after experiencing 1-series AF for a while...

 

[awinphoto]

Or, how about: "Whoo-hoo-hoo, look who knows so much. It just so happens that APS-H is only MOSTLY dead. There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead. Mostly dead is slightly alive." (Miracle Max in The Princess Bride, sort of...)

Cant say I've ever seen princess bride [/crickets chirping]... anyways I understand the aps-c vs aps-h in terms of slightly bigger sensor, better IQ, but one of the tradeoff's for APS-C is the ability to use APS-C lenses and line up and reach... Especially since Canon has obviously shown a desire to develop this clientele and sensor size with lenses, I cant see canon abandoning that unless they make it so the lenses work on that style camera...