A New Flash by Years End? [CR2]

[Loswr]

Why they removed it on the ST-E3 is baffling.

Not really, the ST-E3-RT is a radio based wireless transmitter, the ST-E2 is a wireless communication device that uses light to transmit information, the ST-E2 has to have a light emitting tube, so enabling AF assist is comparatively easy with no additional hardware costs. The ST-E3-RT, does not need a light emitting tube to fulfill its primary function, radio flash control, adding AF assist is no small job and would necessitate addition hardware and costs.

Not really. The AF assist lamp on the ST-E2 is separate from the xenon flash tube that's used to trigger remote flashes. There's no reason it couldn't have been added to the ST-E3...except to induce people to spend twice as much on a 600EX-RT as a master, if they want an AF assist lamp.

 

[privatebydesign]

Good point

If I wanted AF assist I'd campaign to Yonuguo for either a YT-E3-RT with assist, or a small AF assist unit with a pass-through. Their ST-E2 clone has bounce capabilities which the Canon doesn't.

On the gadget front I'd pay good money for a swiveling hotshoe pass-through block. I hate the screen angle of the ST-E3-RT, when the camera is mounted on a tripod and tilted down I can't see or us it!

 

[Hannes]

Indeed, I wonder how long it takes for yonguo to hack the RT system, not that I'm entirely sure it can be done though. I'm going to assume canon has built in lots of checks to prevent hacking it, something that ought to be far easier with a radio transmitter than something that emits normal light

 

[Marsu42]

Indeed, I wonder how long it takes for yonguo to hack the RT system, not that I'm entirely sure it can be done though. I'm going to assume canon has built in lots of checks to prevent hacking it.

I'm also keen to see how long it takes to reverse engineer the rt protocol. Of course it theoretically *could* be prevented by Canon by using strong asymmetric cryptography (i.e. you cannot replay the communication, and each flash has a different key signed by Canon's secret master key).

Still, I wonder if Canon would really go to such lengths to screw 3rd party manufacturers - after all, cheaper 3rd party units (lenses, flashes) are also a strength of the Canon system vs. for example Pentax.

 

[Lawliet]

(i.e. you cannot replay the communication, and each flash has a different key signed by Canon's secret master key).

At least straight replay won't work as there is a two way communication between controller and remote. The camera is aware of the capabilities & status of the flashes it talks to.
Remember all that 3rd party flashes that suddenly didn't work on the hot shoe of the 1Dx? Same challenge, but for a protocol that is intended to be more flexible.
(And didn't at least one of the big players patet protect a radio solution? That would make getting the products through customs interesting. See the first Phottix Atlas...a simple PW receiver with hot shoe would have been nice though)

 

[jdramirez]

I literally just upgraded to a 580 ex ii... so while I may be tempted... it isn't going to happen.

 

[Random Orbits]

I literally just upgraded to a 580 ex ii... so while I may be tempted... it isn't going to happen.

After using the 600ex, I can't go back. It supports a zoom range up to 200mm, which makes a 70-200 much more useful indoors.

 

[archiea]

They really need to make the investment in the RT tech worth while.. meaning lesser flashes that have the ability to join RT groups. Perhaps even a receiver only hotshoe that can make any TTL2 flash they have a slave. That would show that Canon cares about its customers. I'd love to "recruit" my old 580EX to be a radio slave to use as a fill flash or a background light.

Or have the pocket wizard guys reverse engineer and ST-RT and control flashes that way.....

 

[privatebydesign]

They really need to make the investment in the RT tech worth while.. meaning lesser flashes that have the ability to join RT groups. Perhaps even a receiver only hotshoe that can make any TTL2 flash they have a slave. That would show that Canon cares about its customers. I'd love to "recruit" my old 580EX to be a radio slave to use as a fill flash or a background light.

Or have the pocket wizard guys reverse engineer and ST-RT and control flashes that way.....

That is just not going to happen. The RT system uses a completely different series of protocols to support a completely different set of functions, a fully RT system compatible RT trigger would have to over ride the older flashes firmware and provide complete flash control, that isn't a cheap option so will never come to market from Canon and, I suspect, would be too big an undertaking for the third party manufacturers too. I do expect third party manufacturers to come out with RT compatible flashes in time, but not RT triggers that upgrade older flashes to the RT functionality.

 

[Marsu42]

I do expect third party manufacturers to come out with RT compatible flashes in time, but not RT triggers that upgrade older flashes to the RT functionality.

I predict you're mistaken - unless Canon has invested a lot of work into (strong asymmetric) encrypting their rt protocol, Yongnuo will reverse engineer it shortly and then might even provide rt triggers first before integrated rt flashes - that's because this way they can keep their flash lineup compatible with multiple manufacturers.

Given the current price range of rt flashes there is very much money to be made from the large amount of people with legacy non-rt equipment and, Yongnuo's own radio protocol doesn't provide group mode - so they'll try hard.

 

[privatebydesign]

It wouldn't be the first time I was wrong!

I really don't keep fully up to date on the third party flash wars nowadays and whilst I was very interested in the Phottix Odin system to drive my fleet of 550EX flashes, a flash I used with Yongnuo RF-602's for years and still consider to be a better buy than third party ETTL optical compatible flashes, I was seduced by the 600EX-RT's and haven't looked back.

I suppose cracking the camera flash control menu firmware from a post 2012 body isn't too complex, but even if/when they do, I don't see the triggers being anything like the bargain priced accessories we currently see. Which puts getting the trigger and the resale value of your 580EX close to the rebate price of the 600, when Canon really cash in with a 450EX-RT the third party market for RT compatible triggers will become even smaller.

 

[Marsu42]

I don't see the triggers being anything like the bargain priced accessories we currently see.

Looking at the price of the current YN proprietary triggers, there shouldn't be much of a price difference for the rt version - it's rally just some cents of electronics in a plastic casing, they don't even have the lcd display of the st-e3.

 

[privatebydesign]

I don't see the triggers being anything like the bargain priced accessories we currently see.

Looking at the price of the current YN proprietary triggers, there shouldn't be much of a price difference for the rt version - it's rally just some cents of electronics in a plastic casing, they don't even have the lcd display of the st-e3.

That would be a fair comment if cost per unit had nothing to do with perceived value per unit. Do you really think a YN-622 costs anywhere near four times as much to make as an RF-603? An RT YN-642 trigger would cost appreciably more than the 622, even if i was only £20 more that still takes it to £100 for wireless control of one flash, hardly the budget option that the RF-602 got us into at $25 a set.

If they didn't do the LCD it would be considerably less attractive, the ST-E2 doesn't have one so the 622 doesn't need one, but the RT system has much more functionality and digging through the camera flash menu becomes a chore with all the enhancements.

The way I see it whilst some people will always be excited at saving a few hundred dollars (or a hundred quid or so) once people start using the stuff and limitations start showing up then people see less value in third party, no new RT system option will be cheap and whereas with the current third party radio ETTL control that offers something Canon never did, going against direct competition with less functionality, as opposed to no competition with enhanced functionality, seems to make little sense to me.

But as I said, I have been wrong many times before.