A Rundown of EOS 7D Mark II Information

[PureClassA]

No wifi or touch screen? Bummer. All future canon prosumer cameras should have BOTH wifi and touch screens IMHO.

Comments like this make me think people don't know how to use a DSLR. DSLRs are devices that you need to instantly change settings on. You need to be able to dial in exposure on a dime when the light changes. Who in the world, ESPECIALLY pros, want to pull the camera away from their face so they can fiddle with a clunky touch screen? It's sad how smartphone mentality is invading every other area of our lives...in many cases, a touch screen is the primitive configuration device, and all the "archaic old buttons and dials" are actually the vastly superior and far more reliable means of controlling and configuring something like a DSLR (or, for that matter, a remote control, an airplane cockpit, or a nuclear launch facility, or pretty much anything where the behavior of a given doodad has to be EXACT, fixed in behavior and place, reliable, hardened against rough activity, instantaneous, and immune to things like software bugs, viruses, etc.)

Touch screens on consumer devices make sense. Touch screens on professional grade devices designed for use by people who know how to train muscle and procedural memory, and prefer instantaneous access to many features of the camera without the need to look at anything, or remove their eye from the viewfinder...are quite frankly the most confusing "innovation" I can think of.

I'm not necessarily against adding a touch screen, but it is FAR from a dealbreaker if one is not included on the 7D II. Same goes for WiFi. It's not an essential...in the end, it does NOTHING for my photography. It's just a handy gizmo that MIGHT make data transfer from the camera to the computer easier. To me, the most critical, fundamental, hell foundational aspects of the 7D line of cameras are frame rate, AF system, metering and sensor. If those things don't add up to a significant upgrade, something like a two-generational update over the 7D I, then I'd be worried.

B I N G O!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[DominoDude]

I really don't see the benefits of adding a touch screen. I prefer the tactile feedback from a button or a dial. Would a touch screen still work flawlessly on a cold winter day when it's snowing and the gloves are on? Would it work if I was out shooting in the rain?

 

[Loswr]

Canon has a problem. I know you do not believe that, but they do. It's a perceptual problem, and it could seriously affect their revenues and ability to fund the necessary R&D in the years to come. Such things have happened before, and often companies, even if they were on the top of the world, NEVER recover (Kodak?) So...seriously...touch screens and touch UIs?

Canon has a perceptual problem? That depends on who is doing the perceiving. If you're referring to CR Forums and similar places, perhaps. Perceived 'poor sensor IQ' is an Internet forum problem Canon has had for years. Hasn't affected their market share, though.

As dtaylor stated, the analogy to Kodak is a red herring.

Seriously, touch screens and touch UIs. Entry level cameras have them. Canon wants people to upgrade, and people don't like to give up features to which they're accustomed. Omitting basic features which a majority of their customer base expects to be included (a category into which touch screens fall, but low ISO DR does not) would certainly 'seriously affect their revenues and ability to fund the necessary R&D in the years to come'.

 

[Loswr]

Would a touch screen still work flawlessly on a cold winter day when it's snowing and the gloves are on?

I've spent hours out shooting snowy owls and bald eagles on frigid New England winter days. Lots and lots of waiting time between flights...time during which I sometimes post on CR from the touchscreen of my iPhone, with my hands toasty warm in technical gloves. Just sayin'...

 

[Old Sarge]

Canon has a problem. I know you do not believe that, but they do. It's a perceptual problem, and it could seriously affect their revenues and ability to fund the necessary R&D in the years to come. Such things have happened before, and often companies, even if they were on the top of the world, NEVER recover (Kodak?) So...seriously...touch screens and touch UIs?

Canon has a perceptual problem? That depends on who is doing the perceiving. If you're referring to CR Forums and similar places, perhaps. Perceived 'poor sensor IQ' is an Internet forum problem Canon has had for years. Hasn't affected their market share, though.

As dtaylor stated, the analogy to Kodak is a red herring.

Seriously, touch screens and touch UIs. Entry level cameras have them. Canon wants people to upgrade, and people don't like to give up features to which they're accustomed. Omitting basic features which a majority of their customer base expects to be included (a category into which touch screens fall, but low ISO DR does not) would certainly 'seriously affect their revenues and ability to fund the necessary R&D in the years to come'.

I think you hit the nail on the head. Personally, I am not real fond of touch screens. Even so, I use an iPhone, not a Blackberry; I have a Nexus 7, I recently acquired a Surface Pro 3 and use it as a tablet more than I use the keyboard attachment. A good friend just got a 70D and I helped him set it up. Ended up using the touchscreen half the time setting it up. IF the 7DII, by whatever name, is in my price range it won't matter whether it has a touchscreen or not as far as I am concerned. I probably won't use it much if it has it and I won't miss it much if it doesn't. I don't shoot video much and since I have it on my G12 and my 7D I don't really care if the 7DII has it or not....but it makes a big difference for some people. Having features I don't have to use doesn't bother me as long as I get improved IQ, improved DR would be nice, and improved AF would be necessary for me to spend my money.

 

[unfocused]

Canon has a problem. I know you do not believe that, but they do. It's a perceptual problem, and it could seriously affect their revenues and ability to fund the necessary R&D in the years to come. Such things have happened before, and often companies, even if they were on the top of the world, NEVER recover (Kodak?) So...seriously...touch screens and touch UIs?

Canon has a perceptual problem? That depends on who is doing the perceiving. If you're referring to CR Forums and similar places, perhaps. Perceived 'poor sensor IQ' is an Internet forum problem Canon has had for years. Hasn't affected their market share, though.

As dtaylor stated, the analogy to Kodak is a red herring.

Seriously, touch screens and touch UIs. Entry level cameras have them. Canon wants people to upgrade, and people don't like to give up features to which they're accustomed. Omitting basic features which a majority of their customer base expects to be included (a category into which touch screens fall, but low ISO DR does not) would certainly 'seriously affect their revenues and ability to fund the necessary R&D in the years to come'.

Neuro, I admire your patience and persistence.

Clearly, this is one of those things that, for some people, goes beyond logic and rationality.

 

[PureClassA]

I think jrista's whole point was essentially that at THIS level of the Canon spectrum, cool features should play second fiddle to fundamentals. And I agree. If Canon is trying to make a paramount pro-level crop, keep pricing reasonable, and focus most consciously on the things that matter most to the target market they're after on the broadest scale possible....then they (and we) should be clamouring for solid and unmatched fundamentals. Maybe some analogies were misaligned but I appreciate his take on this. I've been Canon since I was five years old holding dad's A1. I still have it.

The 70D fills the upscale consumer market. The enthusiasts and the crossover videographers. Feature rich with touch and wifi.

The 7DX is for a more discerning palate looking for solid build (1DXish) in a crop that can handle harsh conditions if need be and deliver 1DXish AF and FPS. If engineering such a beast negates the use of touch and wifi, so be it. I agree that I do not believe Canon would cut such features without serious reason. One of which may be price considering everything else they wish to accomplish.

I can live fine without either. I won't miss them. I know how to toggle a canon menu well enough. So do most of the pros who would be considering this grade of machine.

In the end, all this is little more than enjoyable conjecture and academia. We don't and won't know anything til the proverbial shit hits the fan next month

 

[Don Haines]

Would a touch screen still work flawlessly on a cold winter day when it's snowing and the gloves are on?

Around here it very rarely snows on a cold winter day... it usually has to warm up to -20C or higher before it snows.

Seriously though, very few cameras are rated for use below freezing. The Olympus Tough series of p/s cameras are one of the few exceptions and it is only good down to -10C. Once most DSLRs get cold the displays stop working.... the LCD shoulder displays are usually the first to go.... touchscreens and the rear displays seem to keep on going longer....

From using the camera hooked up to a telescope in the winter, I would be more than happy to have WiFi to a phone so I could remote control the camera once the camera displays stop working....

 

[rpt]

EOS-1 style top plate

No mode dial?

Darn it! You beat me to it!

You cant get EOS1 style weather sealing with a mode dial. All buttons underneath a continuous rubber film will seal it from rain and gorilla pee. More to sway my decision toward this being closer to a 1DX than a 7D and hence a loftier price tag.

Yup, I know that. Obviously a failed attempt at humour.

 

[jrista]

Canon has a problem. I know you do not believe that, but they do. It's a perceptual problem, and it could seriously affect their revenues and ability to fund the necessary R&D in the years to come. Such things have happened before, and often companies, even if they were on the top of the world, NEVER recover (Kodak?) So...seriously...touch screens and touch UIs?

Canon has a perceptual problem? That depends on who is doing the perceiving. If you're referring to CR Forums and similar places, perhaps. Perceived 'poor sensor IQ' is an Internet forum problem Canon has had for years. Hasn't affected their market share, though.

As dtaylor stated, the analogy to Kodak is a red herring.

Seriously, touch screens and touch UIs. Entry level cameras have them. Canon wants people to upgrade, and people don't like to give up features to which they're accustomed. Omitting basic features which a majority of their customer base expects to be included (a category into which touch screens fall, but low ISO DR does not) would certainly 'seriously affect their revenues and ability to fund the necessary R&D in the years to come'.

I'm actually referring to real photographers I know out in the real world. Most are portrait, wedding, and event photographers. The majority of them already moved to the D800. Some are now seriously considering the D810. Others moved to Pentax (ironically, they really liked the small lenses most, but they also liked the IQ and shadow lifting ability.) The last several photographers I've encountered at the places I do my wildlife and bird photography, not one single one had a Canon camera. None had anything good to say about Canon. The only guy who DID have a Canon camera is an old friend who has haunted Cherry Creek State Park with a 7D, 5D III, and a 500mm f/4 L for years.

I also take my knowledge here from all over the net. Not just here on CR...there is a VERY strong, powerful pro-Canon stance here, obviously, as one would expect. The story is not the same on DPR forums, Fred Miranda, photo.net forums. There is a strong and growing presence of members on those forums who are, just like myself, wondering when Canon is going to do something about overall still photography image IQ.

The PERCEPTION is that Canon only cares about video now, and that they no longer care about the still photographer. That, fundamentally, is the biggest thing I've gathered, from real life photographers I know as well as the mounting trend on photography related internet forums. People perceive Canon as having forgotten about the still photographer, and as putting all their resources, both in video/cinema specific divisions as well as the DSLR/photography division, into video and video alone.

Is that a wrong perception? Looking at all the facts laid out behind us, it's really hard to think anything different. Starting with the 5D II, Canon dropped a video DSLR that sold TONS, and became one of the most popular DSLRs in history...because of the video features. Since the 5D II, the major "newsworthy" (I use that term, because when you dig into the image sensor world, most of the news sites, blogs, etc. pretty much ignore Canon, all the news is from Sony, Atpina, Omnivision, Samsung, Panasonic, Toshiba...basically everyone BUT Canon) image sensor improvements have all been...yup, video related. The 7D II has long been rumored to be a major VIDEO update. Canon has invested a significant amount of money and resources into their EOS Cinema line, including major send-in firmware updates, dual-pixel AF, etc.

I believe the 1D X and 5D III are excellent cameras, and I love the 61pt AF system. I wish the RGB metering system was also included in the 5D III...I've had a couple tough times with 5D III metering where it kept exposing rather high, when it shouldn't have been. I finally switched to full manual mode to solve that problem, but I shouldn't have had to. But aside from the 61pt AF system, and the full RGB metering sensor of the 1D X...what other major STILL photography innovations has Canon created since the release of the 1Ds III and 5D II? Even the sensors in the 1D X and 5D III only had minor evolutionary changes, some could be considered cheats (i.e. thinning of the CFA dyes to make them more transparent). They aren't bad, they do their job well enough, but they aren't as good as the competitors. And the 1D X and 5D III not having significant IQ improvements isn't a bad thing. Canon really did listen to their customers with those two cameras, and delivered what their customer demanded. But the video innovations that have found their way into actual marketable products that Canon is selling far outnumber the number of still photography innovations that have actually found their way into a camera. Even on the video front...Canon's innovations are getting trounced by the likes of Red and friends.

However, the 7D II is years past it's due date. We are now WELL into the era of significantly improved sensor IQ. We are now WELL into the era of significantly improved DR. My point, in all of my comments, is that a touch UI is not the thing Canon NEEDS to focus in, and it shouldn't be the one feature that people use to decide whether to guy the 7D II or not. If the 7D II hits the streets with the same old "classic" Canon sensor technology...that, in my honest opinion, is a MASSIVE FLUB!! Not only a massive flub, but a dangerous flub, for a company that appears to be increasingly perceived as no longer caring about fundamental photography IQ, and instead is obsessed with video (and, as you say, maybe also selling the cheapest cameras possible to the greatest number of consumers....as far as I am concerned, if that's all Canon focuses on into the future...creating cameras with neat little features that attract the bottom up while ignoring the things their true photography customers are demanding, then I'm going to lose interest...because as someone who is very serious about their photography, I'm going to be left behind as the rest of the HIGH END photography technology from every other company moves past me at light speed.) Canon can't forget about their pros and serious photographers in an attempt to attract more bottom-rung consumers. They may rake in the dough...but they will lose their reputation as a photography company that actually cares about photography and image quality.

(BTW, your point about low level consumers being tied to their fancy touch screens and touch UIs...that also applies to high end consumers and professionals, which has also been a point I've been trying to make. Consumers are fickle, they jump from thing to thing, one year they may have a Canon Rebel, the next a Nikon, and the year after that some entry level Sony mirrorless. However, if Canon pisses off their long term, loyal customers who have been using their DSLRs, in the same way with the same menu system and same old "archaic" buttons and dials for YEARS, by doing anything to upset the fundamental functionality of their DSLRs...how do you think THAT would affect their bottom line...or worse, their reputation? It's more important that Canon keep what works with the professional level cameras (xD series), and fix the things their high end customers are demanding, than to filter low end features that fickle consumers demand up to the high end. If they do, fine...but it isn't what I, as a very serious photographer who cares very much about my image quality, believes they should be putting any amount of effort into. I would MUCH rather put every ounce of spare resource they have into competing on the core technological front, and give Canon users a major boost in sensor IQ across the board. The time has come for Canon to address more than just the bottom line.)

 

[jrista]

I think jrista's whole point was essentially that at THIS level of the Canon spectrum, cool features should play second fiddle to fundamentals. And I agree. If Canon is trying to make a paramount pro-level crop, keep pricing reasonable, and focus most consciously on the things that matter most to the target market they're after on the broadest scale possible....then they (and we) should be clamouring for solid and unmatched fundamentals. Maybe some analogies were misaligned but I appreciate his take on this. I've been Canon since I was five years old holding dad's A1. I still have it.

The 70D fills the upscale consumer market. The enthusiasts and the crossover videographers. Feature rich with touch and wifi.

The 7DX is for a more discerning palate looking for solid build (1DXish) in a crop that can handle harsh conditions if need be and deliver 1DXish AF and FPS. If engineering such a beast negates the use of touch and wifi, so be it. I agree that I do not believe Canon would cut such features without serious reason. One of which may be price considering everything else they wish to accomplish.

I can live fine without either. I won't miss them. I know how to toggle a canon menu well enough. So do most of the pros who would be considering this grade of machine.

In the end, all this is little more than enjoyable conjecture and academia. We don't and won't know anything til the proverbial S___ hits the fan next month

Yup, this is it exactly. As I said, I don't care if they do include a touch UI, SO LONG as that does not mean they don't deliver a significantly improved sensor, significantly improved AF system, and also an improved metering system. If the 7D II hits with a consumer-grabbing tough UI, and none of the above...well, I'd perceive that the same way so many other people perceive Canon these days...as being obsessed with video and consumerism, and having lost interest in the true photographer, in solid image quality from top to bottom.

 

[PureClassA]

I can't imagine Canon doesn't read to some degree forums like this one especially. If they don't then shame on them. The people here are the 80/20 rule. The 20% of their market that comprises 80% of the base avid user. I would like to believe that Canon is wise enough to know how to produce a camera properly for the given target market. With a 2000-2500 body, they should darn sure know what the criteria are. And I believe folks like me and jrista are a big chuck of that market. Give the pros a reason to keep those white lenses on the sidelines of Saints games and whatnot. If Canon gets too over zealous with pop culture features, the artists out there will continue their outward migration.

The 5D3 was a killer piece. I expect the 7DX to keep within that pattern and deliver strong fundamentals that will be a harbinger of the next gen FF pro bodies. They need a Sony/Nikon wrecker. If there is any wisdom left at Canon, that's precisely what they plan to deliver through 2015

 

[rame5hra0]

All this discussion about multilayer sensor is mindless waste of time. CR got it wrong. Multilayer hybrid sensor was mentioned as a wishful speculation at the end of the article "What to expect from Canon ?" published on this site "http://thenewcamera.com/canon-7d-mark-ii-to-feature-multilayer-dual-pixel-af-sensor/" . Which was promptly communicated to CR by a "Source" as a probable specification . So don't take this seriously. there wont be any groundbreaking sensor technology in 7D replacement. It will be a rehash of 70D sensor. Thats why this information (though stated as a known) is not rated by CR. :

 

[Marauder]

Canon has a problem. I know you do not believe that, but they do. It's a perceptual problem, and it could seriously affect their revenues and ability to fund the necessary R&D in the years to come. Such things have happened before, and often companies, even if they were on the top of the world, NEVER recover (Kodak?) So...seriously...touch screens and touch UIs?

Canon has a perceptual problem? That depends on who is doing the perceiving. If you're referring to CR Forums and similar places, perhaps. Perceived 'poor sensor IQ' is an Internet forum problem Canon has had for years. Hasn't affected their market share, though.

As dtaylor stated, the analogy to Kodak is a red herring.

Seriously, touch screens and touch UIs. Entry level cameras have them. Canon wants people to upgrade, and people don't like to give up features to which they're accustomed. Omitting basic features which a majority of their customer base expects to be included (a category into which touch screens fall, but low ISO DR does not) would certainly 'seriously affect their revenues and ability to fund the necessary R&D in the years to come'.

I don't think the Kodak analogy is a red herring. Fuji faced the exact same issue as Kodak--the same peril. They changed and have innovated themselves into a respected market--a niche market perhaps, but still a respectable way of staying relevant in a changing world. And, even if you reject the Kodak analogy, the Nokia one remains absolutely relevant.

I'm not one that really finds a deep issue with Canon IQ and I'm not one who supports the constant spread of DRivel. I've seen enough comparisons between the 5D3 and the D800 to make me conclude that the DR differences in the real world are not nearly as significant as various technical comparisons would have you believe. Generally, I find the Canon's tend to have a warmer colour reproduction which I prefer, but those differences seem to be much more academic than practical.

Still, I think Jon is right that there is a "perceptual" threat to Canon's reputation as an innovative company. Although it may only be a perception, that in itself can be a threat to long term success. And it's not just here in the forum--it's on the review sites--the ones that many ordinary camera buyers go to when they're deciding what to purchase. Although the 18 Megapixel APS-C sensor was a solid piece of technology, from the 7D right through to the T5i, I think Canon elected to stay with it a bit too long. It was nice to see the 70D come out with something different--not just in resolution but also in technology (DPAF really did help give Canon some much needed credence again as an innovative company).

The point has been raised that none of this has impacted Canon sales, or it hasn't seemed to. But I think Canon really needs to address that perception in order to maintain that health. I think they need to show the more technically oriented camera crowd that they can really come up with an impressive sensor that can push boundaries in all aspects of performance.

Judy from Tallahassee and Jimmy from Nantucket may not know or care that brand A has one stop of better dynamic range or that it has less noise at ISO ####--they're just buying the camera brand that the tech guy at __________ says has better quality images, or that the pros use at the Olympics. Currently the pros are using Canon, as much because the Canon system of lenses and bodies are largely unbeatable. But that could change in time if Canon doesn't comprehensively demonstrate both the ability and the willingness to innovate. Canon stole the pro market right out from under Nikon--but that doesn't mean it's theirs forever. They need to restate their capacity to create leading edge tech in order to ensure they don't lose that advantage.

In the end, what I guess I'm saying is that I hope that Canon will really wow the world with some new sensor technology. I think they already did manage that to a degree with DPAF, but they need to ensure it's not 'too little too late.' They need to build on that success and show the more technical users that they can still build a class leading IQ sensor. And keep ahead in the areas they already excel in, such as AF. The 61 point AF system on the 5D3/1DX is hard to beat, but they need to bring something that works as well (or better!) to the 7D2, and combine it with great IQ.

Personally, I am optimistic. I think the 7D2 is going to be phenomenal for me in terms of AF, burst rate etc. I'd be more than happy with moderate improvement in IQ over the 70D, but I think it would be better for Canon overall if the IQ got a major boost--something that raises the bar for APS-C sensors---and that also translates into superior IQ for future FF sensors.

Rainbow farting unicorns are optional.

 

[Loswr]

My point, in all of my comments, is that a touch UI is not the thing Canon NEEDS to focus in, and it shouldn't be the one feature that people use to decide whether to guy the 7D II or not. If the 7D II hits the streets with the same old "classic" Canon sensor technology...that, in my honest opinion, is a MASSIVE FLUB!!

As I said, I don't care if they do include a touch UI, SO LONG as that does not mean they don't deliver a significantly improved sensor, significantly improved AF system, and also an improved metering system.

Focus on a touchscreen? Including a touchscreen as a causative factor in the exclusion of a totally redesigned sensor? The R&D resources needed to implement a touchscreen and touch UI, features which are present in several other dSLR models, are minimal, and are miniscule compared the R&D resources needed to develop a truly new sensor with dramatically improved IQ, which is a MAJOR investment. Are you actually suggesting that Canon should not implement a touchscreen in the 7DII because those miniscule resources would have been better spent on sensor R&D?

As for real photographers in the real world flocking to Nikon for the D800, the facts don't support that idea. Anecdotes ≠ data. I know one wedding photog who switched from the 5DII to the D800...because she got a great deal a Nikon package from another wedding photographer who was switching to the 5DIII. At the birding spots I frequent, there are more white lenses than black ones, and some of the black ones are now the Tamron 150-600 mounted on a Canon body.

Photography related internet forums are not representative of the buying public, at any level. The number of working pros who frequent such forums is pretty small. You mention DPR Forums, and that there is a 'strong and growing' group who are dissatisfied with Canon. Have you looked at the DPR 'gear list'? For 'Most Owned', Canon bodies outnumber Nikon by 65%. On the 'Most Wanted' list, Canon bodies outnumber Nikon, as do Sony and even Pentax.

However, if Canon pisses off their long term, loyal customers who have been using their DSLRs, in the same way with the same menu system and same old "archaic" buttons and dials for YEARS, by doing anything to upset the fundamental functionality of their DSLRs...how do you think THAT would affect their bottom line...or worse, their reputation?

Honestly, do you think that Canon would turn the back side of the 7DII into the EOS M, with a big touchscreen, a couple of buttons, and a little dial? Really? I don't get how including a touchscreen would 'upset the fundamental functionality' of a dSLR. Did Canon's addition of the Rate button to the 5DIII disrupt the workflow of those long term, loyal customers? (Hey, wait...maybe that's why they switched to Nikon in droves! : ) The touchscreen is a feature. If you don't want to use it, don't.

Anyway, I'm out. Got other things to do.

Or not...

 

[privatebydesign]

I am a "real" photographer and I'd happily buy a 1 series that had a touch screen, I thought it was a gimmick but I really like the one on my EOS-M, of course it would need to offer more other stuff than just the touch screen, but for product work and real estate the touch screen is a useful feature.

 

[dtaylor]

I'm actually referring to real photographers I know out in the real world.

Anecdotal evidence...meh. Any hard sales stats?

The story is not the same on DPR forums, Fred Miranda, photo.net forums. There is a strong and growing presence of members on those forums who are, just like myself, wondering when Canon is going to do something about overall still photography image IQ.

Obsessive behavior fueled by Internet trolling and memes. It's not representative of more then a small sliver of the buying public who mostly think we're obsessive compulsive nerds to argue this stuff. (They're right.) It drove me nuts early on when the meme was Nikon sensors sucked and Canon were best (think 6-8 MP days when only Canon had FF), and it drives me nuts today with all the Exmor 5+ stop pushed shadow tests and 36 MP envy.

I would actually rank the 1DX, 5D3, and 6D a tiny bit better in high ISO then their Sony/Nikon counterparts. DR (actual, not DxO fantasy) is within a stop of Exmor across the board. Yeah, you can push Exmor shadows by an insane amount and not see any real noise, but your tonality is !@%# by that point and you should have bracketed / blended any way.

Scale and properly (lightly) sharpen a 22/24 MP FF image to 36 MP and you have a hard time finding any where that the 36 MP image is better. On a print? Do you have a loupe and an hour? (I say that having poured over 5D3, A7, and A7R RAWs recently trying to decide which A7 I want. It's no longer the A7R.)

Where Sony really has Canon beat right now is JPEG quality. The A7 JPEGs in the Imaging Resource Comparometer are stupid detailed and sharp. Makes the 5D3 look bad until you load up the RAWs in ACR. Already knew that but someone who has never shot/processed a 5D3 might not. Same thing with the 7D, fine detail is substantially better in ACR.

So given that Canon is right there on IQ, what are they supposed to do? I guess it would be nice if they eliminated the shadow noise completely and released a high rez FF. At least then the trolling would stop.

However, the 7D II is years past it's due date.

How so? It looks to me like Nikon abandoned the segment and nothing else matches it overall even today.

We are now WELL into the era of significantly improved DR.

Basically 12+ vs. 13+ stops. The DR meme is driven entirely by BS DxO tests that aren't even physically possible (i.e. claims of >14 stops from a 14-bit ADC).

 

[unfocused]

I think jrista's whole point was essentially that at THIS level of the Canon spectrum, cool features should play second fiddle to fundamentals. And I agree. If Canon is trying to make a paramount pro-level crop, keep pricing reasonable, and focus most consciously on the things that matter most to the target market they're after on the broadest scale possible....then they (and we) should be clamouring for solid and unmatched fundamentals. Maybe some analogies were misaligned but I appreciate his take on this. I've been Canon since I was five years old holding dad's A1. I still have it.

The 70D fills the upscale consumer market. The enthusiasts and the crossover videographers. Feature rich with touch and wifi.

The 7DX is for a more discerning palate looking for solid build (1DXish) in a crop that can handle harsh conditions if need be and deliver 1DXish AF and FPS. If engineering such a beast negates the use of touch and wifi, so be it. I agree that I do not believe Canon would cut such features without serious reason. One of which may be price considering everything else they wish to accomplish.

I can live fine without either. I won't miss them. I know how to toggle a canon menu well enough. So do most of the pros who would be considering this grade of machine.

In the end, all this is little more than enjoyable conjecture and academia. We don't and won't know anything til the proverbial S___ hits the fan next month

Yup, this is it exactly. As I said, I don't care if they do include a touch UI, SO LONG as that does not mean they don't deliver a significantly improved sensor, significantly improved AF system, and also an improved metering system. If the 7D II hits with a consumer-grabbing tough UI, and none of the above...well, I'd perceive that the same way so many other people perceive Canon these days...as being obsessed with video and consumerism, and having lost interest in the true photographer, in solid image quality from top to bottom.

Okay. Time out guys.

Perhaps that was your intent Jon, but using condescending and inflammatory comments obscure that intent:

Comments like this make me think people don't know how to use a DSLR.

Who in the world, ESPECIALLY pros, want to pull the camera away from their face so they can fiddle with a clunky touch screen?

It's sad how smartphone mentality is invading every other area of our lives...

in many cases, a touch screen is the primitive configuration device

Touch screens on professional grade devices designed for use by people who know how to train muscle and procedural memory, and prefer instantaneous access to many features of the camera without the need to look at anything, or remove their eye from the viewfinder...are quite frankly the most confusing "innovation" I can think of.

If you are going to throw bombs, make rash generalizations and denigrate anyone who has a different opinion than you, then please, don't act like the wounded child when people call you on it and demonstrate clearly that you were mistaken.

Honestly, what's wrong with a simple acknowledgement of a mistake. There have been many times on this forum when I've been shown wrong (often by Neuro or Jon) and I've readily admitted it. Shouldn't we all be adult enough to just say: "I should have thought more about it before I went on a rant."

Really, the point of most of us who have been discussing touch screens seems to be one of questioning why a proven, mature piece of technology would be omitted from an upcoming camera body.

Neuro seems to be of the mind that that suggestion calls into question the accuracy of the rumor. I kind of hope he is right.

I have expressed surprise at it, because I can see the value of the option in my photography (particularly when trying to adjust a series of 600 RTs on the fly -- something that I can't do while looking through the viewfinder, but perhaps that's just because I don't have enough "muscle memory" to be able to set A-B:C ratios without being able to see the screen.)

In thinking about it, I simply asked if there might be some engineering reason why it would be excluded, since I can see many disadvantages to leaving this feature off, and frankly, no advantages to not having it.

There has been a good, healthy discussion by many as to whether or not there is any engineering reason for leaving the feature off. That discussion has been both informed and informative. We will know soon enough whether the rumor is true or not.

Almost everyone has said it won't be a deal breaker (unless they shoot video) but it will be one thing that will be on many people's checklist. The suggestion that it is not a legitimate feature to consider, and that anyone who would find it significant is somehow less of a photographer, is incomprehensible to me; and what I take issue with.

 

[East Wind Photography]

I really don't see the benefits of adding a touch screen. I prefer the tactile feedback from a button or a dial. Would a touch screen still work flawlessly on a cold winter day when it's snowing and the gloves are on? Would it work if I was out shooting in the rain?

if you were out shooting in the rain th touch screen would be the first to die.

 

[unfocused]

if you were out shooting in the rain th touch screen would be the first to die.

That's why ATM machines are always inside...oh wait, they're not.