A Rundown of EOS 7D Mark II Information

[Sporgon]

All i care about is images ... And i know, i cannot get such images with the 7D or the EOS-M and also not with a Canon 6D or 5D3 or 1D-X.

Then why do I see similar images from those cameras all the time? Browse a photo sharing site some time.

Well, I have shot myself and seen enough images from all sorts of current Canon EOS cameras ... and NONE of them can deliver these kind of images out of cam / without REALLY HEAVY post processing.

http://aboutphotography-tomgrill.blogspot.co.at/

Exceptional dynamic range, from the bright window to the deep shadows with no noise and smooth tonal trasition. No fill was added to this severely back lit shot.

You have got to joking

 

[Loswr]

Well, I have shot myself and seen enough images from all sorts of current Canon EOS cameras ... and NONE of them can deliver these kind of images out of cam / without REALLY HEAVY post processing.

His images are not "out of cam." It is quite evident from his review that he is post processing RAW files.

Find a portrait photographer who uses Canon and he will deliver images like those to you all day long.

How dare you spoil the D810 love fest with empirical reality. It's the best camera available, at least until the D820 is launched in a few months.

I really do enjoy the irony of the plethora of 'examples' of the utility of higher DR showing scenes where the DR isn't that high, or was far higher than the camera could capture so the image still has blown and/or blocked areas with lost detail.

I'm not saying more low ISO DR is a bad thing, just that so many purported examples fail to demonstrate it's utility.

 

[PureClassA]

Information from Japanese Canon fan girls, who are working @Canon:
...
Canon is still thinking that they do not have to produce the best and most innovative products in the low and mid price segments. Sales figures show that the market analysts are right. Canon is still the best power seller on the market. And the analysts know that in future time, the market wil not grow and other brands are coming in. Sony will be very active, maybe an 5DIII and 1DX mirrorless competitor is coming in the near future.
The slow reaction on the D7100 and the still "no reaction" on the excellent D800/810 is well calculated. No need to hurry, Canon products are still sold well. There are not many persons switching to Nikon, because the majority of Canonians will not be able to spend a lot of money on new expensive lenses. The average Canon customer will be satisfied by new Canon products, even if other brands will produce superior products.
...

Well Canon understands the situation that a lot of people are in quite well. And that's how they planned it. Trap people early and you've got them for life. I didn't expect that they'd use that as an excuse to be lazy and fail to deliver.

If Canon are going to be so complacent and consider us to be caged animals that they've already caught then I've got news for them because whilst I haven't seriously considered switching brands before, I am now.

In 12 months time either the Canon DSLR that I own will have substantially better IQ or I won't be using Canon any more.

Seriously Canon, you think you can take us consumers for granted?!

Canon's stock price is up almost 10% on the year. Dividend yield right now is almost 4%. Pretty darn good. Nikon on the other hand is down 25% on the year and their dividend yield is half of Canon's. So you are correct from the purely fiscal business perspective that Canon is probably comfy resting a bit on it's laurels right now from the consumer division. But the nerds in R&D are probably restless and are getting tired of hearing their colleagues at Nikon razz them every weekend at the Sake bar.

All that said I'm thinking about buying Nikon ...... stock. Seems undervalued. 8)

 

[Marauder]

Information from Japanese Canon fan girls, who are working @Canon:

Information about the successor of the 7D and the 5DIII are under total NDA. And total means total. There is just an small circle of engeneers and managers who know all of these Cameras. Others are just working on fragments of this Cameras to avoid leaks. If anyone says, he knows details on these products, he is not telling the truth.
In earlier times print jobs for tranportation and manuals were given to the printeries weeks before announcement. This time, there ist still just printing time reservated. No files have been sent to them (status from 08/12).

Canon is still thinking that they do not have to produce the best and most innovative products in the low and mid price segments. Sales figures show that the market analysts are right. Canon is still the best power seller on the market. And the analysts know that in future time, the market wil not grow and other brands are coming in. Sony will be very active, maybe an 5DIII and 1DX mirrorless competitor is coming in the near future.
The slow reaction on the D7100 and the still "no reaction" on the excellent D800/810 is well calculated. No need to hurry, Canon products are still sold well. There are not many persons switching to Nikon, because the majority of Canonians will not be able to spend a lot of money on new expensive lenses. The average Canon customer will be satisfied by new Canon products, even if other brands will produce superior products.

And the rumored prices of the 7D successor are just rumors. Some Canon fans in Japan think that there will be an hefty price increase on Canon products on coming products. Analysts say, that customers are willed to pay the increase. The increasing number of tests and scores, where Canon products are often just a few points /percents better than e.g. third party lenses, will prompt the average (and scores fixed) Canon fan to buy this "bettert product".
If you can see that in their pictures? I do not know.

This sounds like a Canon user's worst conspiracy theory nightmare---and I doubt it's true. Why have such an ironclad NDA if the product isn't pushing boundaries? In addition, if Canon was just planning to "keep pushing inferior product because the cattle will keep buying it," why develop new technologies like DPAF, that have no real equivalent in other companies? If it was true, the 70D would have had a conventional sensor--probably based on the existing 18MP sensors that have been the buttered bread of the Rebel line for the last 5 years! Like most myths, this takes a certain element of truth--Canon has milked the same sensor tech with moderate improvements for the Rebel line for 5 years--and extends it past the breaking point. I don't think the 7D2 will be a conservative design--it's true we don't know for sure what it will be yet, but I think it unlikely it will be a "warmed over" 70D. And if it is, it will not succeed, especially if it's priced north of $2,000.

Another salient point, the camera must be a LONG way out from delivery if they haven't already started printing brochures, manuals and boxes! That material doesn't just spring into being in the many thousands of copies needed overnight!

My (extinct Canadian) two cents worth anyway!

Note, I'm not trashing you Daniela--I just don't think the source of this rumour is reliable.

 

[Marauder]

Information from Japanese Canon fan girls, who are working @Canon:
...
Canon is still thinking that they do not have to produce the best and most innovative products in the low and mid price segments. Sales figures show that the market analysts are right. Canon is still the best power seller on the market. And the analysts know that in future time, the market wil not grow and other brands are coming in. Sony will be very active, maybe an 5DIII and 1DX mirrorless competitor is coming in the near future.
The slow reaction on the D7100 and the still "no reaction" on the excellent D800/810 is well calculated. No need to hurry, Canon products are still sold well. There are not many persons switching to Nikon, because the majority of Canonians will not be able to spend a lot of money on new expensive lenses. The average Canon customer will be satisfied by new Canon products, even if other brands will produce superior products.
...

Well Canon understands the situation that a lot of people are in quite well. And that's how they planned it. Trap people early and you've got them for life. I didn't expect that they'd use that as an excuse to be lazy and fail to deliver.

If Canon are going to be so complacent and consider us to be caged animals that they've already caught then I've got news for them because whilst I haven't seriously considered switching brands before, I am now.

In 12 months time either the Canon DSLR that I own will have substantially better IQ or I won't be using Canon any more.

Seriously Canon, you think you can take us consumers for granted?!

Canon's stock price is up almost 10% on the year. Dividend yield right now is almost 4%. Pretty darn good. Nikon on the other hand is down 25% on the year and their dividend yield is half of Canon's. So you are correct from the purely fiscal business perspective that Canon is probably comfy resting a bit on it's laurels right now from the consumer division. But the nerds in R&D are probably restless and are getting tired of hearing their colleagues at Nikon razz them every weekend at the Sake bar.

All that said I'm thinking about buying Nikon ...... stock. Seems undervalued. 8)

LOL @ "razzed at sake bar"

 

[Don Haines]

Another salient point, the camera must be a LONG way out from delivery if they haven't already started printing brochures, manuals and boxes! That material doesn't just spring into being in the many thousands of copies needed overnight!

The contract to print for Canon must be worth a fortune! If they do it in-house, then they have control over leaks. If it is contracted out, there is undoubtedly a penalty clause for leaking info, plus that would mean the loss of your biggest client and that nobody else in the industry would touch you again... That would be the death of the company, so anyone printing the info would keep things absolutely quiet. Anyone who leaked the info would loose their job and get sued for millions.... it is not worth it!

 

[daniela]

Information from Japanese Canon fan girls, who are working @Canon:

Information about the successor of the 7D and the 5DIII are under total NDA. And total means total. There is just an small circle of engeneers and managers who know all of these Cameras. Others are just working on fragments of this Cameras to avoid leaks. If anyone says, he knows details on these products, he is not telling the truth.
In earlier times print jobs for tranportation and manuals were given to the printeries weeks before announcement. This time, there ist still just printing time reservated. No files have been sent to them (status from 08/12).

Canon is still thinking that they do not have to produce the best and most innovative products in the low and mid price segments. Sales figures show that the market analysts are right. Canon is still the best power seller on the market. And the analysts know that in future time, the market wil not grow and other brands are coming in. Sony will be very active, maybe an 5DIII and 1DX mirrorless competitor is coming in the near future.
The slow reaction on the D7100 and the still "no reaction" on the excellent D800/810 is well calculated. No need to hurry, Canon products are still sold well. There are not many persons switching to Nikon, because the majority of Canonians will not be able to spend a lot of money on new expensive lenses. The average Canon customer will be satisfied by new Canon products, even if other brands will produce superior products.

And the rumored prices of the 7D successor are just rumors. Some Canon fans in Japan think that there will be an hefty price increase on Canon products on coming products. Analysts say, that customers are willed to pay the increase. The increasing number of tests and scores, where Canon products are often just a few points /percents better than e.g. third party lenses, will prompt the average (and scores fixed) Canon fan to buy this "bettert product".
If you can see that in their pictures? I do not know.

This sounds like a Canon user's worst conspiracy theory nightmare---and I doubt it's true. Why have such an ironclad NDA if the product isn't pushing boundaries? In addition, if Canon was just planning to "keep pushing inferior product because the cattle will keep buying it," why develop new technologies like DPAF, that have no real equivalent in other companies? If it was true, the 70D would have had a conventional sensor--probably based on the existing 18MP sensors that have been the buttered bread of the Rebel line for the last 5 years! Like most myths, this takes a certain element of truth--Canon has milked the same sensor tech with moderate improvements for the Rebel line for 5 years--and extends it past the breaking point. I don't think the 7D2 will be a conservative design--it's true we don't know for sure what it will be yet, but I think it unlikely it will be a "warmed over" 70D. And if it is, it will not succeed, especially if it's priced north of $2,000.

Another salient point, the camera must be a LONG way out from delivery if they haven't already started printing brochures, manuals and boxes! That material doesn't just spring into being in the many thousands of copies needed overnight!

My (extinct Canadian) two cents worth anyway!

Note, I'm not trashing you Daniela--I just don't think the source of this rumour is reliable.

Well, as I wrote some postings before, Japanese Canon Fangirls do not know it either. But many of them think that this content could be true.
On the other hand, maybe, they just raise the pressure on Canon. The Japanese are not thinking like we do. Japan is another world, everybody who has worked there will has realized that there is still much fear to "looses your face" and in many companies it is an question of honor to meet the feud glove.

Canon is doing a lot of research, more than other companies. But there is an strict plan, which fundamental improvement or invention is put into which class of camera or lens. And most of them are for the upper segment. In my opinion further research and development on the 70Ds AF system will be built in > 5DIV Cameras, when it will work perfectly. My 70D produces - in my personal feeling - as many unsharp pictures as my old 7D. But when it will be improved, this AF will be a great feature.

@ printing job: It is a question of work preparation. If the cardboards are punched and prefabricated, the job could be done in a few weeks.
I think Canon will first deliver the Cams to professional Canon dealers, like done with the 70D. So, the mass of the Cams will be delivered a bit later

 

[AvTvM]

Thanks Danuiela. I believe that perfectly describes current Canon thinking. However, as opposed to Canon and their analysts I am convinced this ignorance and arrogance towards their customers will cost them dearly.

I have purchased hardly anything from Canon during the last 5 years (7D) and will continue to do so, as long as they do not deliver the products I want [basically, a mirrorless "Sony A7R killer" or at the very least a "Fuji XT-1 killer" (APS-C)]. I've recently sold the 7D and some of the Canon lenses and have no qualms to sell the remaining approx. 5k in Canon lenses, if need be.

Yes, that's just me ... but I know, it is not just me.

Information from Japanese Canon fan girls, who are working @Canon:

Information about the successor of the 7D and the 5DIII are under total NDA. And total means total. There is just an small circle of engeneers and managers who know all of these Cameras. Others are just working on fragments of this Cameras to avoid leaks. If anyone says, he knows details on these products, he is not telling the truth.
In earlier times print jobs for tranportation and manuals were given to the printeries weeks before announcement. This time, there ist still just printing time reservated. No files have been sent to them (status from 08/12).

Canon is still thinking that they do not have to produce the best and most innovative products in the low and mid price segments. Sales figures show that the market analysts are right. Canon is still the best power seller on the market. And the analysts know that in future time, the market wil not grow and other brands are coming in. Sony will be very active, maybe an 5DIII and 1DX mirrorless competitor is coming in the near future.
The slow reaction on the D7100 and the still "no reaction" on the excellent D800/810 is well calculated. No need to hurry, Canon products are still sold well. There are not many persons switching to Nikon, because the majority of Canonians will not be able to spend a lot of money on new expensive lenses. The average Canon customer will be satisfied by new Canon products, even if other brands will produce superior products.

And the rumored prices of the 7D successor are just rumors. Some Canon fans in Japan think that there will be an hefty price increase on Canon products on coming products. Analysts say, that customers are willed to pay the increase. The increasing number of tests and scores, where Canon products are often just a few points /percents better than e.g. third party lenses, will prompt the average (and scores fixed) Canon fan to buy this "bettert product".
If you can see that in their pictures? I do not know.

 

[jrista]

And I dislike it when people post stuff like this without actually reading and understanding what they respond to.

You made the same wrong claim and prediction that you've made before. You will not see another step in the higher MP image. I know because I've tried these things. I wish you would to.

Well, maybe we finally have something we can agree on. ;P I do agree, you will not see another step in a higher MP image, for the reasons I tried to explain to LTRLI.

I guess that's where our agreement ends, though. :

If you lift the shadows in the image, however, you should actually get more steps with a sensor that has lower read noise. IF YOU PULL THE SHADOWS. If you take images of step wedges, and do not pull the shadows in them, then again as I described to LTRLI, you won't notice any difference between cameras. Shoot a step wedge with a 5D III, and shoot a step wedge with a D800, and compare the out-of-camera results on a computer...and there won't be any difference. The reason for that is that the DR gain on the D800 is in the deep shadows, because read noise has been reduced...and those shadows are several stops below the level that a computer screen can render. You have greater editing latitude, and the ability to UTILIZE more dynamic range in an image created with a sensor that has lower read noise.

Most computer screens render 8-bit meaning they cannot naively render more than 8 stops of DR in an image, where as most RAW files are 14-bits, and they contain images with 11-13+ stops of DR. The 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, and 13th stops of additional DR in a RAW will all be rendered as either very deep shadows, or simply blacks, when the gamma curve of the screen is applied. This is WHY we tend to lift shadows...to "recover" those stops of dynamic range that cannot be rendered properly by a computer screen.

So, if you are taking photos of step wedges, then comparing the unmodified OOC results, I am honestly not surprised if you are not seeing any difference between the D800, 5D III, and any other cameras. Without modification, without pulling up the shadows, your only seeing a gamma-corrected 8 stops or so, which is leaving a few stops at least buried in the shadows. A simple test, but one that might be prone to a little subjectivity, would be to take some step wedge shots with a D800 or D810, and a 5D III, and pull up the shadows until the noise in the shadows either starts exhibiting unsightly patterns, or becomes more pronounced than throughout the rest of the tonal range. With a Canon, you might be able to recover up to about three stops (11-8) before Canon's unsightly noise becomes a problem. With a D810, you should be able to recover four to five stops before noise becomes more pronounced in the shadows than at any other level...however it won't have any pattern, it should just be nice, clean, random noise. You could lift the full 5.8 stops (13.8-8) and still have good results...but the shadow noise will likely become more pronounced than at any other level at some point.

Anyway, after doing that kind of shadow pull...then compare the step wedges. It's in this particular case that you should notice the DR advantage of cameras that use Sony Exmor sensors. The advantage should be up to around two stops over non-Exmor sensors, and sadly, the worst competitor on the market at the moment are Canon sensors.

 

[PureClassA]

Another salient point, the camera must be a LONG way out from delivery if they haven't already started printing brochures, manuals and boxes! That material doesn't just spring into being in the many thousands of copies needed overnight!

The contract to print for Canon must be worth a fortune! If they do it in-house, then they have control over leaks. If it is contracted out, there is undoubtedly a penalty clause for leaking info, plus that would mean the loss of your biggest client and that nobody else in the industry would touch you again... That would be the death of the company, so anyone printing the info would keep things absolutely quiet. Anyone who leaked the info would loose their job and get sued for millions.... it is not worth it!

Being someone that has created and farmed out for printing many single page sales sheets and political campaign mail pieces over the years I can tell you unequivocally that those pro press shops (the really big ones) can rip 100,000 of those out in a day once they're plated and on the press. In other words, they will probably make a small print run for Photokina to hand out, and then go back immediately after and make their typical large print runs which could be in dealer hands within a week, well before the cameras hit stores at the end of September / early October (guessing)

 

[Loswr]

I have purchased hardly anything from Canon during the last 5 years (7D) and will continue to do so, as long as they do not deliver the products I want [basically, a mirrorless "Sony A7R killer" or at the very least a "Fuji XT-1 killer" (APS-C)]. I've recently sold the 7D and some of the Canon lenses and have no qualms to sell the remaining approx. 5k in Canon lenses, if need be.

Yes, that's just me ... but I know, it is not just me.

No, it's not just you. I recently sold the 7D and some Canon lenses and had no qualms about selling approximately $5K in Canon gear. Of course, I bought several times that amount in new Canon gear. Yes, that's just me...but I know, it is not just me. And unlike you, those of us buying Canon gear are in the majority.

 

[Marauder]

Thanks Danuiela. I believe that perfectly describes current Canon thinking. However, as opposed to Canon and their analysts I am convinced this ignorance and arrogance towards their customers will cost them dearly.

I have purchased hardly anything from Canon during the last 5 years (7D) and will continue to do so, as long as they do not deliver the products I want [basically, a mirrorless "Sony A7R killer" or at the very least a "Fuji XT-1 killer" (APS-C)]. I've recently sold the 7D and some of the Canon lenses and have no qualms to sell the remaining approx. 5k in Canon lenses, if need be.

Yes, that's just me ... but I know, it is not just me.

Information from Japanese Canon fan girls, who are working @Canon:

Information about the successor of the 7D and the 5DIII are under total NDA. And total means total. There is just an small circle of engeneers and managers who know all of these Cameras. Others are just working on fragments of this Cameras to avoid leaks. If anyone says, he knows details on these products, he is not telling the truth.
In earlier times print jobs for tranportation and manuals were given to the printeries weeks before announcement. This time, there ist still just printing time reservated. No files have been sent to them (status from 08/12).

Canon is still thinking that they do not have to produce the best and most innovative products in the low and mid price segments. Sales figures show that the market analysts are right. Canon is still the best power seller on the market. And the analysts know that in future time, the market wil not grow and other brands are coming in. Sony will be very active, maybe an 5DIII and 1DX mirrorless competitor is coming in the near future.
The slow reaction on the D7100 and the still "no reaction" on the excellent D800/810 is well calculated. No need to hurry, Canon products are still sold well. There are not many persons switching to Nikon, because the majority of Canonians will not be able to spend a lot of money on new expensive lenses. The average Canon customer will be satisfied by new Canon products, even if other brands will produce superior products.

And the rumored prices of the 7D successor are just rumors. Some Canon fans in Japan think that there will be an hefty price increase on Canon products on coming products. Analysts say, that customers are willed to pay the increase. The increasing number of tests and scores, where Canon products are often just a few points /percents better than e.g. third party lenses, will prompt the average (and scores fixed) Canon fan to buy this "bettert product".
If you can see that in their pictures? I do not know.

I find the frequent assumption that any forthcoming Canon must be a mirrorless camera to be noteworthy rather presumptuous. There seems to be a vocal crowd that goes to any product forum, even a product that is almost certain to be a DSLR, and then issue a series of threats and ultimatums that the product had better be mirrorless or else it will show that Canon disrespects it's customers. I find it quite odd. It's like there is an automatic assumption that mirrorless cameras are the ONLY sort of interchangeable lens camera that is viable, which is simply nonsense of course. I am interested in the forthcoming 7D2 primarily as a wildlife camera, which is one of the primary target markets for this camera. And, like most people shooting wildlife and action, I WANT/NEED my optical viewfinder. The notion that a traditional DSLR has no place in the modern photographic world is at best premature. It's hard to say if an OFV will ever really be unnecessary in a camera--that day may yet come---certainly EFV's are improving--but to suggest or imply that the rest of us who still prefer a DSLR, as well as the companies that make such cameras, are somehow obsolete and out of tune with progress is just absurd.

Perhaps I'm reading more into your post than is there? But you seem to imply that unless Canon makes a FF mirrorless camera, then nothing it makes will matter. Not sure why someone who wants a mirrorless FF camera would feel the need to post that desire on a thread that is about a forthcoming DSLR cropped frame model? Again, apologies if I'm misunderstanding you, or misrepresenting your central point.

Also, don't get me wrong---I'm not against mirrorless--it's just that I see it as a supplemental or additional technology, rather than a replacement for traditional DSLR's. Certainly they have a base of enthusiastic followers and Canon can and should capitalize on that following. DPAF gives Canon a great technology that just about screams "put me into a mirrorless camera!" Three things surprised me about DPAF:
1. That they had the technology--it really is quite a technical marvel.
2. That they elected to introduce it in a DSLR rather than a CSC (not to say it's not relevant in a DSLR-it is!)
3. And this is the big one--that they did not follow up the successful launch of the 70D by launching a follow-up to the M line with a DPAF sensor!

DPAF is great on a DSLR, but a potentially market leading tech for big sensor mirrorless cameras. Again, not that I'm in the market for such a camera really--I'm not--the camera I want is the camera I believe the 7D2 will be! But I also realize the camera purchaser is a diverse group--different tools for different uses and users! I don't see any reason why Canon cannot diversify their line by bringing out strong lines of both DSLR's and CSC cameras. Perhaps they will, but it does seem further from their RADAR.

I think they made a huge misstep with the M of course--not that the camera itself lacked potential. The FW update fixed the worst of its AF issues and made it an entirely useful product for those attracted to its small size and decent IQ. But it shouldn't have ever even have been released with such a faulty AF system in the first place--once the reputation was damaged, recovery was all but impossible. I think they're still reeling from that a bit--but they should get over it. A good entry level mirrorless camera (and an expansion of the native lens selection) could give them the confidence boost they need to take on the A7R style of camera--DPAF could be the key to either a solid, dependable entry level CSC or, if DPAF AI Servo can undergo a significant improvement with development (and it looks like it can!) then a very good higher level mirrorless entry. Time will tell!

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Information from Japanese Canon fan girls, who are working @Canon:

Information about the successor of the 7D and the 5DIII are under total NDA. And total means total. There is just an small circle of engeneers and managers who know all of these Cameras. Others are just working on fragments of this Cameras to avoid leaks. If anyone says, he knows details on these products, he is not telling the truth.
In earlier times print jobs for tranportation and manuals were given to the printeries weeks before announcement. This time, there ist still just printing time reservated. No files have been sent to them (status from 08/12).

Canon is still thinking that they do not have to produce the best and most innovative products in the low and mid price segments. Sales figures show that the market analysts are right. Canon is still the best power seller on the market. And the analysts know that in future time, the market wil not grow and other brands are coming in. Sony will be very active, maybe an 5DIII and 1DX mirrorless competitor is coming in the near future.
The slow reaction on the D7100 and the still "no reaction" on the excellent D800/810 is well calculated. No need to hurry, Canon products are still sold well. There are not many persons switching to Nikon, because the majority of Canonians will not be able to spend a lot of money on new expensive lenses. The average Canon customer will be satisfied by new Canon products, even if other brands will produce superior products.

Assuming they have info or are guessing correctly, that would be pretty disappointing from Canon assuming if they are still in that mode of thinking. It's really a shame the degree to which they have let the bean counters take over. I mean silly stuff like remove MFA at the last second from 40D, put it into the 50D, remove it again from 60D so it can be a selling point for 70D and the dribbling out of the minor autoiso feature over a decade and still only making it work right on 1DX, I mean really Canon, really Canon? You are down to playing those levels of games?

Maybe if they didn't play so many silly little games like that and all the little cripplings they did to stock 5D3 video, the forums wouldn't have so many whiners. And at some point they will be wrong about switching over and whining will turn to switching. Honestly, if they punt this next round of cameras I think you will see more of a move to Nikon than simply an adding on of an A7R or such.

One hopes that by low and mid-tier they mean Rebel and xxD and not Rebel//xxD and 7/5 series.

And don't forget the old no need to update it still sells well put Atari into the dumps from which they never really recovered and same for others. Granted the camera market is a bit more stable so they can get away with it a lot more.

And before someone says oh yeah Canon they still sell, well who cares? Can you take photos with the money in their CEO's pocket?

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Information from Japanese Canon fan girls, who are working @Canon:
...
Canon is still thinking that they do not have to produce the best and most innovative products in the low and mid price segments. Sales figures show that the market analysts are right. Canon is still the best power seller on the market. And the analysts know that in future time, the market wil not grow and other brands are coming in. Sony will be very active, maybe an 5DIII and 1DX mirrorless competitor is coming in the near future.
The slow reaction on the D7100 and the still "no reaction" on the excellent D800/810 is well calculated. No need to hurry, Canon products are still sold well. There are not many persons switching to Nikon, because the majority of Canonians will not be able to spend a lot of money on new expensive lenses. The average Canon customer will be satisfied by new Canon products, even if other brands will produce superior products.
...

Well Canon understands the situation that a lot of people are in quite well. And that's how they planned it. Trap people early and you've got them for life. I didn't expect that they'd use that as an excuse to be lazy and fail to deliver.

If Canon are going to be so complacent and consider us to be caged animals that they've already caught then I've got news for them because whilst I haven't seriously considered switching brands before, I am now.

In 12 months time either the Canon DSLR that I own will have substantially better IQ or I won't be using Canon any more.

Seriously Canon, you think you can take us consumers for granted?!

+100

Anyway I was already saying that they were converting to this attitude years ago, before Nikon even came out with their first FF, you should have heard the way their top rep in Europe was talking at that one show. Nothing but giving one the impression other than: hahahaha we are the kings on the mountain, we rule all, we have no need to do anything, hahaha why do you ask such a foolish question about producing a FF camera with any speed or performance ahahaha we are kings, what need, we are infinitely far ahead of Nikon for sensors, they have no FF and won't for a decade ahahaha (the real ahahaha was when Nikon introduced a fast, performance FF less than a year later), we are kings on the mountain. We will sit as is and sell. We have no need, how can you ask such a question. We are kings.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Information from Japanese Canon fan girls, who are working @Canon:

Information about the successor of the 7D and the 5DIII are under total NDA. And total means total. There is just an small circle of engeneers and managers who know all of these Cameras. Others are just working on fragments of this Cameras to avoid leaks. If anyone says, he knows details on these products, he is not telling the truth.
In earlier times print jobs for tranportation and manuals were given to the printeries weeks before announcement. This time, there ist still just printing time reservated. No files have been sent to them (status from 08/12).

Canon is still thinking that they do not have to produce the best and most innovative products in the low and mid price segments. Sales figures show that the market analysts are right. Canon is still the best power seller on the market. And the analysts know that in future time, the market wil not grow and other brands are coming in. Sony will be very active, maybe an 5DIII and 1DX mirrorless competitor is coming in the near future.
The slow reaction on the D7100 and the still "no reaction" on the excellent D800/810 is well calculated. No need to hurry, Canon products are still sold well. There are not many persons switching to Nikon, because the majority of Canonians will not be able to spend a lot of money on new expensive lenses. The average Canon customer will be satisfied by new Canon products, even if other brands will produce superior products.

And the rumored prices of the 7D successor are just rumors. Some Canon fans in Japan think that there will be an hefty price increase on Canon products on coming products. Analysts say, that customers are willed to pay the increase. The increasing number of tests and scores, where Canon products are often just a few points /percents better than e.g. third party lenses, will prompt the average (and scores fixed) Canon fan to buy this "bettert product".
If you can see that in their pictures? I do not know.

This sounds like a Canon user's worst conspiracy theory nightmare---and I doubt it's true. Why have such an ironclad NDA if the product isn't pushing boundaries? In addition, if Canon was just planning to "keep pushing inferior product because the cattle will keep buying it," why develop new technologies like DPAF, that have no real equivalent in other companies? If it was true, the 70D would have had a conventional sensor--probably based on the existing 18MP sensors that have been the buttered bread of the Rebel line for the last 5 years! Like most myths, this takes a certain element of truth--Canon has milked the same sensor tech with moderate improvements for the Rebel line for 5 years--and extends it past the breaking point. I don't think the 7D2 will be a conservative design--it's true we don't know for sure what it will be yet, but I think it unlikely it will be a "warmed over" 70D. And if it is, it will not succeed, especially if it's priced north of $2,000.

Another salient point, the camera must be a LONG way out from delivery if they haven't already started printing brochures, manuals and boxes! That material doesn't just spring into being in the many thousands of copies needed overnight!

My (extinct Canadian) two cents worth anyway!

Note, I'm not trashing you Daniela--I just don't think the source of this rumour is reliable.

These are all good points too. I was thinking why the super secret, super secret then. Although I was thinking it could mean they are developing stuff, good stuff, but will only use it if they see sales plummeting. A bit of a dangerous game and certainly a very annoying one for their user base at the least.

Who knows. It seems clear that Canon has thought along these lines in the recent past at least though.
One of their reps flat out said they removed MFA from the 60D simply so they could make it a 'new' selling point again for the 70D. I mean come on, what kinda cheap games is that?

An EOSfun poster with close ties to Canon used to sprinkle interesting tidbits and was all gung-ho Canon but even he seems to have disappeared and soured a bit and he said Canon left the 5D3 sensor old school since the marketing guys wanted to push new boundaries in profit margin per body with the 5 series and felt that adding the new 1 series AF would mean they could get away without really bothering a lot with the sensor.

A Canon guy in Australia said the DSLR division in Japan didn't seem to care a whit when their division sent them some scheme to improve DR and basically told them to get lost. (hopefully something was lost in translation between the two divisions, certainly possible)

But maybe crazy good stuff is just around the bend. Maybe by next spring it will all be hear and the calculated waiting was not referring to stlll more years of holding back but just the past few releases and now they are ready? I could very well imagine that.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Now it is true that the 5D3 ended up being able to deliver stunningly good 1080p 24fps RAW video and it got some usability features, which made it quite the revolutionary camera in the end. But all of that was 100% solely thanks to a very small and very dedicated group of hackers (OK, granted they (Canon) had to have designed the underlying hardware but if they had it locked up and it never meant for that and if the in cam video is all smeared and it ships with no usability features....).

 

[unfocused]

Thanks Danuiela. I believe that perfectly describes current Canon thinking. However, as opposed to Canon and their analysts I am convinced this ignorance and arrogance towards their customers will cost them dearly.

Information from Japanese Canon fan girls, who are working @Canon:

Information about the successor of the 7D and the 5DIII are under total NDA. And total means total. There is just an small circle of engineers and managers who know all of these Cameras.

Canon is still thinking that they do not have to produce the best and most innovative products in the low and mid price segments. Sales figures show that the market analysts are right. Canon is still the best power seller on the market...
...The slow reaction on the D7100 and the still "no reaction" on the excellent D800/810 is well calculated. No need to hurry, Canon products are still sold well. There are not many persons switching to Nikon

I find the frequent assumption that any forthcoming Canon must be a mirrorless camera to be noteworthy rather presumptuous. There seems to be a vocal crowd that goes to any product forum, even a product that is almost certain to be a DSLR, and then issue a series of threats and ultimatums that the product had better be mirrorless or else it will show that Canon disrespects it's customers. I find it quite odd. It's like there is an automatic assumption that mirrorless cameras are the ONLY sort of interchangeable lens camera that is viable, which is simply nonsense of course.

I always find it amusing when forum participants seem unable to separate their personal tastes from marketplace demand.

It's not like mirrorless cameras are taking the world by storm. All mirrorless sales (not just Canon) have done poorly in western markets.

While they have done better in Asia, the unknown (at least to us) is whether the Asian market is a leading or a trailing market. Too many on this forum assume it is a leading market (that is, other markets will follow the trends there).

But, we don't know that. Strong mirrorless sales in Asia may be either an anomaly having to do with cultural differences, or it could very well be that in China, at least, strong mirrorless sales may be a precursor to DSLR sales (people buying mirrorless may, as they get more serious with the hobby, ditch their mirrorless for DSLRs which offer many advantages for wildlife, sports, action, etc.)

Canon is the only company that has innovated when it comes to DSLR form factor – SL1. They may have the market research to know that a smaller form factor in a DSLR is an effective competitor to mirrorless. (I know I personally would consider an SL1 but not a mirrorless).

Of course we don't know anything about these "Japanese Canon Fan Girls who are working at Canon" or if their claims are accurate or even translated properly (I have my doubts about both).

But, I did highlight one point:

Canon is still thinking that they do not have to produce the best and most innovative products in the low and mid price segments.

Well. duh. Market leaders never have to produce the best and most innovative products in their lower- and mid-price lines. That's true in any industry.

First of all, market leaders have a brand identity to protect and that requires a conservative approach to product releases. Nikon's recent and very expensive fiascoes are clear examples of the risk of premature releases. When you have a brand name build on reliability you must be conservative with your releases.

I am convinced this ignorance and arrogance towards their customers will cost them dearly.

It is hardly ignorant or arrogant for a market leading company to take a conservative approach. The best way to respect your customers is to make sure you stay in business for the next 20-30 years. Canon is respecting its customers by protecting their investment in Canon equipment.

People talk about being "trapped" by their investment in Canon. But, frankly, I'd much rather be "trapped" by Canon or Nikon than have all my equipment lose its value when Sony decides they can no longer afford to support its camera division so they sell the division off to some investment group which starts piecemealing it out.

One of their reps flat out said they removed MFA from the 60D simply so they could make it a 'new' selling point again for the 70D...

An EOSfun poster...said Canon left the 5D3 sensor old school since the marketing guys wanted to push new boundaries in profit margin per body with the 5 series and felt that adding the new 1 series AF would mean they could get away without really bothering a lot with the sensor.

A Canon guy in Australia said the DSLR division in Japan didn't seem to care a whit when their division sent them some scheme to improve DR and basically told them to get lost.

Sorry, but these all sound like goofy, water-cooler conspiracy theories.

 

[Marauder]

Thanks Danuiela. I believe that perfectly describes current Canon thinking. However, as opposed to Canon and their analysts I am convinced this ignorance and arrogance towards their customers will cost them dearly.

Information from Japanese Canon fan girls, who are working @Canon:

Information about the successor of the 7D and the 5DIII are under total NDA. And total means total. There is just an small circle of engineers and managers who know all of these Cameras.

Canon is still thinking that they do not have to produce the best and most innovative products in the low and mid price segments. Sales figures show that the market analysts are right. Canon is still the best power seller on the market...
...The slow reaction on the D7100 and the still "no reaction" on the excellent D800/810 is well calculated. No need to hurry, Canon products are still sold well. There are not many persons switching to Nikon

I find the frequent assumption that any forthcoming Canon must be a mirrorless camera to be noteworthy rather presumptuous. There seems to be a vocal crowd that goes to any product forum, even a product that is almost certain to be a DSLR, and then issue a series of threats and ultimatums that the product had better be mirrorless or else it will show that Canon disrespects it's customers. I find it quite odd. It's like there is an automatic assumption that mirrorless cameras are the ONLY sort of interchangeable lens camera that is viable, which is simply nonsense of course.

I always find it amusing when forum participants seem unable to separate their personal tastes from marketplace demand.

It's not like mirrorless cameras are taking the world by storm. All mirrorless sales (not just Canon) have done poorly in western markets.

While they have done better in Asia, the unknown (at least to us) is whether the Asian market is a leading or a trailing market. Too many on this forum assume it is a leading market (that is, other markets will follow the trends there).

But, we don't know that. Strong mirrorless sales in Asia may be either an anomaly having to do with cultural differences, or it could very well be that in China, at least, strong mirrorless sales may be a precursor to DSLR sales (people buying mirrorless may, as they get more serious with the hobby, ditch their mirrorless for DSLRs which offer many advantages for wildlife, sports, action, etc.)

Canon is the only company that has innovated when it comes to DSLR form factor – SL1. They may have the market research to know that a smaller form factor in a DSLR is an effective competitor to mirrorless. (I know I personally would consider an SL1 but not a mirrorless).

Of course we don't know anything about these "Japanese Canon Fan Girls who are working at Canon" or if their claims are accurate or even translated properly (I have my doubts about both).

But, I did highlight one point:

Canon is still thinking that they do not have to produce the best and most innovative products in the low and mid price segments.

Well. duh. Market leaders never have to produce the best and most innovative products in their lower- and mid-price lines. That's true in any industry.

First of all, market leaders have a brand identity to protect and that requires a conservative approach to product releases. Nikon's recent and very expensive fiascoes are clear examples of the risk of premature releases. When you have a brand name build on reliability you must be conservative with your releases.

I am convinced this ignorance and arrogance towards their customers will cost them dearly.

It is hardly ignorant or arrogant for a market leading company to take a conservative approach. The best way to respect your customers is to make sure you stay in business for the next 20-30 years. Canon is respecting its customers by protecting their investment in Canon equipment.

People talk about being "trapped" by their investment in Canon. But, frankly, I'd much rather be "trapped" by Canon or Nikon than have all my equipment lose its value when Sony decides they can no longer afford to support its camera division so they sell the division off to some investment group which starts piecemealing it out.

One of their reps flat out said they removed MFA from the 60D simply so they could make it a 'new' selling point again for the 70D...

An EOSfun poster...said Canon left the 5D3 sensor old school since the marketing guys wanted to push new boundaries in profit margin per body with the 5 series and felt that adding the new 1 series AF would mean they could get away without really bothering a lot with the sensor.

A Canon guy in Australia said the DSLR division in Japan didn't seem to care a whit when their division sent them some scheme to improve DR and basically told them to get lost.

Sorry, but these all sound like goofy, water-cooler conspiracy theories.

LOL @ "goofy, water-cooler conspiracy theories"

I tend to concur. When it comes to removing AFMA from the 60D, it seems far more likely that it was removed because the 7D was kind of taking over for the xxD line when it comes to a more premium body with a more demanding user. Still probably not the wisest move, and it's nice to see its return on the 70D, which goes a long way to putting the xxD line back where it belongs--which is why the 7D2 has so much room to move up, way beyond the xxD in general and the 70D in particular.

Specs for the 7D2 seemed to gravitate all over the map for a time. We were told it was going to be 61 points and 10 fps. Then there was a 19 point AF rumour also at 10 FPS. It ranged from 21MP to 20.2MP after the 70D launch. In essence, the rumours after the 70D seemed to indicate a far less capable camera than originally rumoured--in essence like a barely warmed over 70D, which would be disappointing unless it performed FAR better than the numbers indicated. When things began to gel again, the AF system was back to being a centre point--a new AF system that would was going to be shared with a forthcoming 1 series as well as a brand new tech sensor of around 24MP. And things have stayed around that level for the last few months, becoming more consistent, which is a bit more confidence building.

My take away in all this? We might still see the "warmed over 70D" version. I'm sure the pessimists will see it that way. Indeed some of the pessimists will hate it even if it is an amazing camera with lots of new tech, because it's not "mirrorless" or "full frame" (or "APS-H!") or because it has too few megapixels (or too many) or ______. And the pessimists are right about one thing though--we don't know yet, and may not know till the announcement date, or even later when it's reviewed. Sure, the current rumour indicates "New AF," but that doesn't mean it isn't really just hyperbole for a warmed over 19 point AF. Nothing much has been said recently on the AF system. Maybe it will only have 8fps.

But I don't think so. I suspect it's going to rock! I think it's going to have a killer multi-point AF system (I'll be surprised if it doesn't have at least 41 points--maybe more). I think it's going to have a heavy duty build and a new tech sensor with DPAF (possibly even using the new patent where DPAF works with the traditional AF). I think it's going to do an honest 12fps (at least 10) and I think it's going to have very good IQ for an APS-C camera. And I think it's going to prototype cool new tech that will propagate to the other high end lines, like the 5 and 1 series. I think Canon realizes this thing is going to have LOTS of eyes on it and that it has to be a wow, Wow, WOW, OMG WOW sort of camera, especially for the target audience.

Do I know this--of course not! But asking someone not to speculate on the rumoured specs and what they might mean at a rumour site is rather like going into a Provincial/State or National park and saying "OMG....you idiots are----CAMPING! What on earth FOR????!!!!" LOL

Right now, the 7D2 is Schrodinger's Cat. It's both a warmed over 70D AND an amazing leap forward for APS-C cameras simultaneously! (Or something in between. Or it's a hoax and not coming at all.) We won't know until Canon opens the box!

What I can say though, is that a 7D2 that under reaches and is merely a warmed over 70D is likely to be a costly mistake for Canon. And if it's one that redefines what an APS-C camera can be, by giving the wildlife/sports/action photographer what we expect will be a massive success, if it can live up to the high expectations.

Schrodinger's Camera is coming--it's currently alive and dead--which one it stays, remains to be seen.

 

[jrista]

Schrodinger's Camera is coming--it's currently alive and dead--which one it stays, remains to be seen.

Hah! Very nice! And, really about as true as it gets. We won't know till we know. Just wish Canon would hurry up and release it already. Alive or dead.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Schrodinger's Camera is coming--it's currently alive and dead--which one it stays, remains to be seen.

Hah! Very nice! And, really about as true as it gets. We won't know till we know. Just wish Canon would hurry up and release it already. Alive or dead.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRvCvsRp5ho