A Rundown of EOS 7D Mark II Information

[LetTheRightLensIn]

One of their reps flat out said they removed MFA from the 60D simply so they could make it a 'new' selling point again for the 70D...

An EOSfun poster...said Canon left the 5D3 sensor old school since the marketing guys wanted to push new boundaries in profit margin per body with the 5 series and felt that adding the new 1 series AF would mean they could get away without really bothering a lot with the sensor.

A Canon guy in Australia said the DSLR division in Japan didn't seem to care a whit when their division sent them some scheme to improve DR and basically told them to get lost.

Sorry, but these all sound like goofy, water-cooler conspiracy theories.

In the first case it's a direct quote from a Canon guy at a show in Europe. I forget, but I believe there is also evidence in 40D firmware code that the feature had been in there but pulled seemingly late in the gaeme (which was extremely annoying since Canon had the 1D3 mirror fix fiasco right at that time so they were too busy to bother calibrating lenses to bodies in any timely matter then, which caught up a lot of 40D users, I ended up having to shoot better part of a sports season and take it on a nat geo trip fairly badly out of calibration, if marketing hadn't pulled the MFA, it wouldn't been zero issue.) And it would be pretty curious thing for a Canon guy to make up and let slip regarding the reason for pulling it from 60D.


In the second, maybe the EOSfun guy was full of it, but he a history of popping up right before an announcement and dropping hints that always turned out to be true.

In the last case, the guy is a verified Canon employee (NOT in the camera division though) and, as I said, maybe something got lost in translation and the way the one group took it was not what the other group really meant (maybe they had something better, realized the idea would not actually work, etc. and then when they said no thanks it came across as too brusk in a lost in translation between cultures kinda thing).

Anyway, yeah the last two are not given, but the first one is. And also the Canon guy in Europe who many years ago kept going on about how Canon was so far ahead of Nikon in FF that they had no need to do anything at all but sit there on top of the hill, that was real, there even used to be video of it online, not sure if it is still up anywhere or not.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

I tend to concur. When it comes to removing AFMA from the 60D, it seems far more likely that it was removed because the 7D was kind of taking over for the xxD line when it comes to a more premium body with a more demanding user. Still probably not the wisest move, and it's nice to see its return on the 70D, which goes a long way to putting the xxD line back where it belongs--which is why the 7D2 has so much room to move up, way beyond the xxD in general and the 70D in particular.

Only the 7D was not taking over for the xxD line and MFA is not a feature or a bonus, it is simply something to make something function to spec and basically not be broken.

And it would be a curious thing for a canon guy to say if not true, since for what purpose would he say such a thing otherwise?

 

[unfocused]

In the first case it's a direct quote from a Canon guy at a show in Europe.

I'm not doubting that a Canon employee at a trade show might say something like that. I just doubt that he would have any access to the information to justify such a statement. Canon has never been enthusiastic about AFMA. I think they see it as a way for customers to really screw up their camera settings and create extra work for their service centers. I think they dropped it from the 60D because they viewed it as a consumer product and didn't want the headaches. I suspect they took so much grief for doing that they they decided with the 70D to just bite and bullet and include it.

In the second, maybe the EOSfun guy was full of it, but he a history of popping up right before an announcement and dropping hints that always turned out to be true.

Except the statement isn't even true. This forum was filled with rave reviews from actual users (mostly wedding and event photographers) about the incredible improvement in high ISO performance offered by the 5DIII when it came out. I'm not interested in re-opening this old debate, but there are plenty of people who think the 5DIII sensor was a vast improvement over the 5DII.

In the last case, the guy is a verified Canon employee (NOT in the camera division though)...

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if Canon basically said to their non-imaging employee: "that's nice, we have an entire engineering department to do this work. Please go back to doing what we are paying you to do."

 

[Don Haines]

AFMA is hard to do right. It is not a one-shot deal, it is about shifting a probability distribution onto the center, and that takes lots of readings under controlled conditions.

When you consider how many people get it wrong and how few people even bother with it on high end cameras (and those are supposed to be the "best and brightest") putting it on lower end cameras is a disaster waiting to happen. If I were Canon, I wouldn't put it on lower end cameras and would be working on an automatic AFMA scheme so that the camera could calibrate itself.

 

[jrista]

In the first case it's a direct quote from a Canon guy at a show in Europe.

I'm not doubting that a Canon employee at a trade show might say something like that. I just doubt that he would have any access to the information to justify such a statement. Canon has never been enthusiastic about AFMA. I think they see it as a way for customers to really screw up their camera settings and create extra work for their service centers. I think they dropped it from the 60D because they viewed it as a consumer product and didn't want the headaches. I suspect they took so much grief for doing that they they decided with the 70D to just bite and bullet and include it.

This seems far more logical to me than some kind of secret conspiracy at Canon to keep their customers buying upgraded cameras. I honestly cannot see Canon purposefully screwing their customers over for an extra buck. Historically, that has the opposite effect...you piss your customers off, and they go elsewhere for their needs.

I am thinking your right, AFMA is probably a source of camera screwups and extra service center costs. I bet that's why they have been putting effort into R&D on automatic AFMA technology...they have at least one or two patents for such technology. It's certainly better if the camera can figure out for itself what the best AFMA setting is, than to have a customer do it and maybe mess something up (without realizing it, most likely), and then complain to Canon about the issue.

In the second, maybe the EOSfun guy was full of it, but he a history of popping up right before an announcement and dropping hints that always turned out to be true.

Except the statement isn't even true. This forum was filled with rave reviews from actual users (mostly wedding and event photographers) about the incredible improvement in high ISO performance offered by the 5DIII when it came out. I'm not interested in re-opening this old debate, but there are plenty of people who think the 5DIII sensor was a vast improvement over the 5DII.

The 5D III sensor is a vast improvement over most of Canon's older sensors, for sure. The difference between the 5D III and 7D for identically framed shots is massive. I was printing at 24x36 most of the time with my 7D images. I just received three new prints at 40x30", all taken with the 5D III. The big, blurry backgrounds look exquisite!

Of course, I pretty much live and die at high ISO. Once I get back out into the mountains (hopefully next week), It'll be my first change to see how well the 5D III does for landscapes. I'm sure it will be better than the 7D, simply because of frame size...but I do wonder about the shadow pulling.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

AFMA is hard to do right. It is not a one-shot deal, it is about shifting a probability distribution onto the center, and that takes lots of readings under controlled conditions.

When you consider how many people get it wrong and how few people even bother with it on high end cameras (and those are supposed to be the "best and brightest") putting it on lower end cameras is a disaster waiting to happen. If I were Canon, I wouldn't put it on lower end cameras and would be working on an automatic AFMA scheme so that the camera could calibrate itself.

It's just not that hard to make it give you at least a bit better result. And there is always the incredibly difficult, almost impossible anyone with less than a 170IQ to handle, option to hit RESET ALL TO ZERO if it goes badly.

 

[Marauder]

Schrodinger's Camera is coming--it's currently alive and dead--which one it stays, remains to be seen.

Hah! Very nice! And, really about as true as it gets. We won't know till we know. Just wish Canon would hurry up and release it already. Alive or dead.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRvCvsRp5ho

Yes indeed, we shall only know the truth when it is announced and reviewed. Hopefully in a few weeks!

And yes, "Wanted, Dead Or Alive" is the PERFECT theme song! We will either salivate to get it, or turn sadly away, but we want to know WHICH! We've waited long enough to find out!!!

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

I'm not doubting that a Canon employee at a trade show might say something like that. I just doubt that he would have any access to the information to justify such a statement.

Yeah I do agree, it does seem more likely that he wouldn't have that info, although it's not impossible.
But why would he say such a thing since it doesn't help 60D sales in any way that I can see and it would seem he could make up some less damaging sounding excuse easily enough, so on that hand it seems like he got frustrated himself and let something slip? But yeah it is a bit surprising he might know such details, but I think he was slightly higher up, still....

Canon has never been enthusiastic about AFMA. I think they see it as a way for customers to really screw up their camera settings and create extra work for their service centers.

service centers? just hit reset to zero. at the very worst it is fixed with a single email or phone call. and I have to think there are fair more cameras that get sent in for poor focus (which is very often due to poor calibration) than there are people who are so clueless that they can't figure out what reset all to zero means.

I think they dropped it from the 60D because they viewed it as a consumer product and didn't want the headaches. I suspect they took so much grief for doing that they they decided with the 70D to just bite and bullet and include it.

Neither of us knows for sure, but I personally doubt that.

Except the statement isn't even true. This forum was filled with rave reviews from actual users (mostly wedding and event photographers) about the incredible improvement in high ISO performance offered by the 5DIII when it came out. I'm not interested in re-opening this old debate, but there are plenty of people who think the 5DIII sensor was a vast improvement over the 5DII.

Well that depends. And the landscape forums tend to have much different view. Anyway yeah I don't want to get into that. (also the high iso stuff they did was took the least effort and least expenditures to improve at all)

In the last case, the guy is a verified Canon employee (NOT in the camera division though)...

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if Canon basically said to their non-imaging employee: "that's nice, we have an entire engineering department to do this work. Please go back to doing what we are paying you to do."

yeah perhaps. apparently one of their guys came up with a scheme that he believed they could use on the current old fabs to improve DR and their group sent it over to get it patented and were apparently met with a quick wave off, they were under the impression that is was some business manager type who waved them off and that it never even got shown to engineering over there (but yeah a lot of ifs and questions in teh story, all I can say is they felt a little put off by it all and some doubts over management at DSLRs grew in their minds, although it's certainly possible that the true, deeper truth wouldn't come across badly and it may be differen tthan it seems)

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Schrodinger's Camera is coming--it's currently alive and dead--which one it stays, remains to be seen.

Hah! Very nice! And, really about as true as it gets. We won't know till we know. Just wish Canon would hurry up and release it already. Alive or dead.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRvCvsRp5ho

Yes indeed, we shall only know the truth when it is announced and reviewed. Hopefully in a few weeks!

And yes, "Wanted, Dead Or Alive" is the PERFECT theme song! We will either salivate to get it, or turn sadly away, but we want to know WHICH! We've waited long enough to find out!!!

I'm really waiting on the 5D4 even more, since even if the 7D2 doesn't do too much for the sensor (unless of course it does ;D ;D and then we are totally golden), the 5D4/1DX2 story might be different. So yeah just bring those last two on for they are Wanted, Dead or Alive!!!!!!!! And then we can finally know whether Canon is in the game again or whether some may finally hit the point to stop whining and just switch (not that the Nikon side is all roses, the lenses are not as exciting for one, but if the 5D4 and 1DX2 drop the ball sensor-wise, maybe it's time Nikon's issues be damned).

 

[Marauder]

Schrodinger's Camera is coming--it's currently alive and dead--which one it stays, remains to be seen.

Hah! Very nice! And, really about as true as it gets. We won't know till we know. Just wish Canon would hurry up and release it already. Alive or dead.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRvCvsRp5ho

Yes indeed, we shall only know the truth when it is announced and reviewed. Hopefully in a few weeks!

And yes, "Wanted, Dead Or Alive" is the PERFECT theme song! We will either salivate to get it, or turn sadly away, but we want to know WHICH! We've waited long enough to find out!!!

I've never tried it on my 7D. For one thing, I don't have enough space or light in my humble little apartment to setup the targets to do my 100-400--the only lens I have where I thought I might need it. Secondly, I was concerned about making things worse, and I wasn't sure the Reset would erase the AFMA changes or not, or if it would just reset menus. :/

I'd very much welcome an automated AFMA system, if it works well!

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

In the first case it's a direct quote from a Canon guy at a show in Europe.

I'm not doubting that a Canon employee at a trade show might say something like that. I just doubt that he would have any access to the information to justify such a statement. Canon has never been enthusiastic about AFMA. I think they see it as a way for customers to really screw up their camera settings and create extra work for their service centers. I think they dropped it from the 60D because they viewed it as a consumer product and didn't want the headaches. I suspect they took so much grief for doing that they they decided with the 70D to just bite and bullet and include it.

This seems far more logical to me than some kind of secret conspiracy at Canon to keep their customers buying upgraded cameras. I honestly cannot see Canon purposefully screwing their customers over for an extra buck. Historically, that has the opposite effect...you piss your customers off, and they go elsewhere for their needs.

And yet 40D MFA code got disabled.
Marketing had them cripple the min shutter speed for AutoISO Av on the 5D3 for no sane reason.
etc.

 

[Marauder]

Schrodinger's Camera is coming--it's currently alive and dead--which one it stays, remains to be seen.

Hah! Very nice! And, really about as true as it gets. We won't know till we know. Just wish Canon would hurry up and release it already. Alive or dead.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRvCvsRp5ho

Yes indeed, we shall only know the truth when it is announced and reviewed. Hopefully in a few weeks!

And yes, "Wanted, Dead Or Alive" is the PERFECT theme song! We will either salivate to get it, or turn sadly away, but we want to know WHICH! We've waited long enough to find out!!!

I'm really waiting on the 5D4 even more, since even if the 7D2 doesn't do too much for the sensor (unless of course it does ;D ;D and then we are totally golden), the 5D4/1DX2 story might be different. So yeah just bring those last two on for they are Wanted, Dead or Alive!!!!!!!! And then we can finally know whether Canon is in the game again or whether some may finally hit the point to stop whining and just switch (not that the Nikon side is all roses, the lenses are not as exciting for one, but if the 5D4 and 1DX2 drop the ball sensor-wise, maybe it's time Nikon's issues be damned).

I think it's at least possible, if not probable that the 7D2 will have improved IQ on the new sensor--although I expect it will be improved within the context of an APS-C sensor, so full-frame aficionados are still better waiting for the 5D4 or 1DXI (or X2, or whatever--LOL). That being said, if the 7D2 does ship with some sort of new sensor technology, it may be a hint as to what sort of improvements might be in store for the new FF models. Then we have two more Schrodinger's Cats!

Either way, I'm out when it comes to the new FF cameras, whenever they come--too rich for my blood and I'm just a humble hobbyist, so there are very proscribed budgetary limits for me. Now a second hand 5D3 might be in the offing, given time and enough of a price drop. A second hand 1DX would be preferable, but given how stubbornly the 1DIV has hung onto its price, I don't see the 1DX becoming "affordable" within my context at any reasonable future point. On the other hand, if the 7D2 does rock, 1DIV's might just drop to the ~2 grand mark, which puts them within a range for which I can reasonably save $$ and purchase. That will happen sooner or later, so it's an option for me if the 7D2 fails to deliver what I am expecting.

There are options in the Canon Pantheon regardless, at least for me! For that matter, I still rather enjoy my current 7D and T3i combo. I use the 7D for wildlife and challenging subjects--my humble little T3i for most other things--and it all works fairly well for me. Also game to try more film with the little collection of Canon film SLR's I've picked up here and there. Still plenty of "fun" for moi, regardless of what happens....

Oh, who am I kidding!? I'm going to get drunk and cry in my beer if the 7D2 doesn't rock!

 

[Don Haines]

Oh, who am I kidding!? I'm going to get drunk and cry in my beer if the 7D2 doesn't rock!

I've got $2500 set aside for the 7D2.... if it does not rock, that's a lot of beer!

 

[Marauder]

Oh, who am I kidding!? I'm going to get drunk and cry in my beer if the 7D2 doesn't rock!

I've got $2500 set aside for the 7D2.... if it does not rock, that's a lot of beer!

True! You always think of the bright side! Or is that the blurry side? Or blurry, room spinning, poundyhead side????

 

[jrista]

Schrodinger's Camera is coming--it's currently alive and dead--which one it stays, remains to be seen.

Hah! Very nice! And, really about as true as it gets. We won't know till we know. Just wish Canon would hurry up and release it already. Alive or dead.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRvCvsRp5ho

Yes indeed, we shall only know the truth when it is announced and reviewed. Hopefully in a few weeks!

And yes, "Wanted, Dead Or Alive" is the PERFECT theme song! We will either salivate to get it, or turn sadly away, but we want to know WHICH! We've waited long enough to find out!!!

I'm really waiting on the 5D4 even more, since even if the 7D2 doesn't do too much for the sensor (unless of course it does ;D ;D and then we are totally golden), the 5D4/1DX2 story might be different. So yeah just bring those last two on for they are Wanted, Dead or Alive!!!!!!!! And then we can finally know whether Canon is in the game again or whether some may finally hit the point to stop whining and just switch (not that the Nikon side is all roses, the lenses are not as exciting for one, but if the 5D4 and 1DX2 drop the ball sensor-wise, maybe it's time Nikon's issues be damned).

I wouldn't switch, myself. I'd add a D810 and a 14-24 to my kit for landscapes. I still think that overall, Canon is still much better for the action stuff, in my case wildlife and birds. The lenses are truly to die for.

 

[DominoDude]

Oh, who am I kidding!? I'm going to get drunk and cry in my beer if the 7D2 doesn't rock!

I've got $2500 set aside for the 7D2.... if it does not rock, that's a lot of beer!

Don and Marauder: Stay away from Westvleteren "Yellow cap" (a Belgian Trappist beer) and the $'s will last longer.

 

[jrista]

In the first case it's a direct quote from a Canon guy at a show in Europe.

I'm not doubting that a Canon employee at a trade show might say something like that. I just doubt that he would have any access to the information to justify such a statement. Canon has never been enthusiastic about AFMA. I think they see it as a way for customers to really screw up their camera settings and create extra work for their service centers. I think they dropped it from the 60D because they viewed it as a consumer product and didn't want the headaches. I suspect they took so much grief for doing that they they decided with the 70D to just bite and bullet and include it.

This seems far more logical to me than some kind of secret conspiracy at Canon to keep their customers buying upgraded cameras. I honestly cannot see Canon purposefully screwing their customers over for an extra buck. Historically, that has the opposite effect...you piss your customers off, and they go elsewhere for their needs.

And yet 40D MFA code got disabled.
Marketing had them cripple the min shutter speed for AutoISO Av on the 5D3 for no sane reason.
etc.

What concrete evidence do you have that the Canon marketing department had "them" do anything? That makes no logical sense. I've worked for a number of very large companies, and dealt with marketing people. NOT ONCE has a marketing person EVER told me what to do. The politics in most large companies simply won't allow that kind of thing to happen. Such a demand would have to go through umpteen channels, up then down then up again when the demand steps on someone elses turf and gets kicked back.

Sorry, but I find the whole notion that Canon Marketing is making demands of the engineering or product development side of Canon to be laughable.

From what I've found and read about MFA in older cameras (40D, 30D), it was something that may have been designed just for service center use. Assuming that's the case, then the functionality was included in the 40D, but not as a consumer function. As someone who has used BackyardEOS, an astrophotography software tool, for about six months now, I can attest to the fact that Canon includes a LOT of functionality in their firmware that is not directly accessible by menu options in the camera. When you dig into the Canon APIs, you learn that a whole range of awesome things are possible using it.

It does indeed seem as though there are a number of features included that may be explicitly intended for service center use. I don't know why they are restricted, but Canon certainly has their reasons...and I am HIGHLY skeptical that the reason is simply: The marketing department somehow thinks that purposely gimping cameras is going to attract more customers. A lot of that functionality probably support's Canon's testing and diagnostic utilities that are used when you send a camera in for repair, and a lot of that functionality should probably NOT be accessible by consumers using the menu system of the camera.

You can hook into that functionality via the API and do cool things...but then your on your own, as you rightly should be. So sorry, don't buy and never will buy the line that Canon Marketing is the sole reason that certain features of their cameras are disabled. That kind of thinking steps from a mentality steeped in anticoproration crap, and I honestly cannot stand that sort of thing. It's naive. Go work in a large company like Canon for a year...the politics and turf and dominions wars will make your ears and eyes bleed...

 

[Marauder]

Oh, who am I kidding!? I'm going to get drunk and cry in my beer if the 7D2 doesn't rock!

I've got $2500 set aside for the 7D2.... if it does not rock, that's a lot of beer!

Don and Marauder: Stay away from Westvleteren "Yellow cap" (a Belgian Trappist beer) and the $'s will last longer.

Noted!

 

[unfocused]

What concrete evidence do you have that the Canon marketing department had "them" do anything? That makes no logical sense. I've worked for a number of very large companies, and dealt with marketing people. NOT ONCE has a marketing person EVER told me what to do. The politics in most large companies simply won't allow that kind of thing to happen. Such a demand would have to go through umpteen channels, up then down then up again when the demand steps on someone elses turf and gets kicked back.

Sorry, but I find the whole notion that Canon Marketing is making demands of the engineering or product development side of Canon to be laughable.

Most people haven't any idea whatsoever what marketing departments do. They just repeat myths because they think it makes them sound pure or superior.

It's particularly ironic for any photographer to demean marketing because, with the possible exception of a few highly technical applications, photography is all marketing all the time.

In any well-run enterprise, and I consider Canon a well-run enterprise, the marketing department is the biggest customer advocate you can find.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

What concrete evidence do you have that the Canon marketing department had "them" do anything? That makes no logical sense. I've worked for a number of very large companies, and dealt with marketing people. NOT ONCE has a marketing person EVER told me what to do. The politics in most large companies simply won't allow that kind of thing to happen. Such a demand would have to go through umpteen channels, up then down then up again when the demand steps on someone elses turf and gets kicked back.

Well it depends upon what exactly you mean by the marketing term.
I just mean as opposed to the engineers.
I seriously doubt any engineer would think oh gee I better remove this MFA I just spent this time perfecting from the 40D. Or gee I better make sure to limit the fast min shutter speed in the 5D3 AutoISO Av shutter speed to happen to be just low enough to not really be useful even though it would have taken, if anything a few seconds less time, to have not put the limit in at all.

I seen and heard tale of all too many times where the whole MBA/manager/marketing types just come in and force the engineers to muck it all up. Or keep saying, no not yet, not yet, not yet, gotta milk more, gotta milk more.

And they do come up with all sort of schemes to calculate how they can minimize what they give without quite pushing people over the edge of leaving, which can be very annoying to those trying to push tech forward.

It's a totally different mindset.

From what I've found and read about MFA in older cameras (40D, 30D), it was something that may have been designed just for service center use. Assuming that's the case, then the functionality was included in the 40D, but not as a consumer function. As someone who has used BackyardEOS, an astrophotography software tool, for about six months now, I can attest to the fact that Canon includes a LOT of functionality in their firmware that is not directly accessible by menu options in the camera. When you dig into the Canon APIs, you learn that a whole range of awesome things are possible using it.

from what I heard it didn't seem to be that sort of thing at all, but basically what they put in the higher level cam and later the 50D

You can hook into that functionality via the API and do cool things...but then your on your own, as you rightly should be. So sorry, don't buy and never will buy the line that Canon Marketing is the sole reason that certain features of their cameras are disabled. That kind of thinking steps from a mentality steeped in anticoproration crap, and I honestly cannot stand that sort of thing. It's naive. Go work in a large company like Canon for a year...the politics and turf and dominions wars will make your ears and eyes bleed...

How is it naive, as you just said, it will make your ears and eyes bleed (at least if you are in engineering).

Maybe you are reading too much into my use of marketing, thinking I mean a single person who is preparing some ad campaign or a few reps who go to trade shows. I was casting a very, very wide net with how I was using the term.