Analysis of RAW samples at Fred Miranda show weak DR

[Khalai]

So what to do now, i could get 6D2 this friday (21.07) as a special costumer in my shop here, I was waiting for 6D2 so long and now 1 week ago there comes that DR nightmare story or rumor or fact or whatever

I don't need 4k or second SD slot and I am ok with that, I did want arti-screen and DP and touch but i was also hoping for sensor with better DR and ISO at least 1 stop better DR - APSC body even rabel's came with new A/D chip on sensor for like 500$ ( in fact every new body, every body in 2017 came with A/D chip on sensor, and all with digic 7 ) so doesn't it make it strange that 2000$, most selling Canon body would be crippled that hard ??

Would you buy it if you have chance like me to have it this friday or would you wait for like 1-2 month or more because this will be hot seller no matter what and if that DR come to be false or some error than it would sell like very hot and I would have to wait for it even longer - what to do, i will go crazy

if some of you have some info or did try it and know that DR is problem or it is not I would be very thankful if you send me a pm because i know about your "disclosure embargo" or whatever it is called..

Stay calm and keep taking images. If you are in a hurry and your retailer has a good return policy, then by all means keep the preorder and try the camera. If you are not in a hurry, have a decent camera today, then I'll suggest patience and wait for reviews...

 

[Loswr]

...because this will be hot seller no matter what and if that DR come to be false or some error than it would sell like very hot and I would have to wait for it even longer

Honestly, a bit more or less DR, ADC on-sensor or off-sensor, neither of them are going to significantly impact sales either way.

CRguy posted that his sources indicated that supply (in North America, at least) would be generally sufficeint to meet preorders. So, keep your place in the queue or drop out, likely you'll be able to pick one up soon if you want it.

 

[ahsanford]

Honestly, a bit more or less DR, ADC on-sensor or off-sensor, neither of them are going to significantly impact sales either way.

100% agree it will sell well regardless, but as much as you've correctly identified this RAW file is from dubious origins, do you believe a non-on-chip ADC might be in the 6D2?

- A

 

[Loswr]

Honestly, a bit more or less DR, ADC on-sensor or off-sensor, neither of them are going to significantly impact sales either way.

100% agree it will sell well regardless, but as much as you've correctly identified this RAW file is from dubious origins, do you believe a non-on-chip ADC might be in the 6D2?

I certainly think it's possible. I think Canon simply doesn't believe the 'issue' matters to the target market, and they're most likely right.

 

[LonelyBoy]

Just the other day a friend and I were looking at a beautiful picture. Composition was great, exposure was perfect, it was sharp where it was sharp and blurred in the distance. It really captured a mood. But something was wrong. We both looked at it more closely and realized the problem at the same time. The sensor didn't have on-chip ADC! What a shame.

(Pardon my silly mood this morning.)

Oh dear. Lack of ADC, or Awesome Dynamic range Contraption, must've been the reason why you have to delete the file immediately and then flush your eyes with concetrated sulphuric acid, right?

I have said this before. I have seen big prints in galleries that have clearly been taken with Canon cameras and have been pushed so far in post I wouldn't show at a local camera club. However on enquiring it turned out it was the photographers best selling shot.

So who is the fool?

The masses are asses.

 

[ahsanford]

I certainly think it's possible. I think Canon simply doesn't believe the 'issue' matters to the target market, and they're most likely right.

Certainly plausible, but what's been missing for me is what Canon gets for leaving on-chip out of the 6D2. As others have shown here, there are instances where an 80D or 7D2 gets something the 6D1/6D2 did not (max shutter / sync speed come to mind), and we can associate that with FF being a costly inflection point for the componenetry. And with the 6D1, AF would also fall under that bucket.

What I lack here is the same understanding. I thought once Canon starting using on-chip ADC, there were economies of scale to encourage them to use this new tech on everything unless they were using a hand-me-down sensor from an older product line. So as much as a standalone 26 MP FF sensor (which Canon has never done) would mean new sensor fab regardless of on-chip vs. not on-chip ADC, I'm surprised Canon would save a great deal of money by leaving on-chip ADC out of the picture.

But please educate me if there is some nutty/painful/expensive aspect to this. This is far from my knowledge wheelhouse. I continue to dwell on the (potential) absence of on-chip ADC in the 6D2 as I don't think a soul on the planet thought it would not be there -- it was a ground-floor 'sure thing' expectation.

- A

 

[rrcphoto]

I certainly think it's possible. I think Canon simply doesn't believe the 'issue' matters to the target market, and they're most likely right.

Certainly plausible, but what's been missing for me is what Canon gets for leaving on-chip out of the 6D2. As others have shown here, there are instances where an 80D or 7D2 gets something the 6D1/6D2 did not (max shutter / sync speed come to mind), and we can associate that with FF being a costly inflection point for the componenetry. And with the 6D1, AF would also fall under that bucket.

What I lack here is the same understanding. I thought once Canon starting using on-chip ADC, there were economies of scale to encourage them to use this new tech on everything unless they were using a hand-me-down sensor from an older product line. So as much as a standalone 26 MP FF sensor (which Canon has never done) would mean new sensor fab regardless of on-chip vs. not on-chip ADC, I'm surprised Canon would save a great deal of money by leaving on-chip ADC out of the picture.

there's some assumptions here that ADC by itself makes a huge difference. the huge difference is when and where canon does CDS on the sensor.

there's definitely more than one variant of the ADC/DPAF sensor in APS-C sizes, so it could be the same with the full frame sensors.

 

[ahsanford]

there's some assumptions here that ADC by itself makes a huge difference. the huge difference is when and where canon does CDS on the sensor.

there's definitely more than one variant of the ADC/DPAF sensor in APS-C sizes, so it could be the same with the full frame sensors.

CDS = ?

That's a new one for me.

- A

 

[rrcphoto]

there's some assumptions here that ADC by itself makes a huge difference. the huge difference is when and where canon does CDS on the sensor.

there's definitely more than one variant of the ADC/DPAF sensor in APS-C sizes, so it could be the same with the full frame sensors.

CDS = ?


That's a new one for me.

- A

correlated double sampling. exmor does it at the row level at the sensor edge, and also post ADC (removing black level offset variations). canon USED to do it at the pixel area (less precise) and at least as far as I know, they haven't added post ADC CDS into the sensor, so raw conversions are supposed to use the masked pixels to do the CDS in software after the fact (since the 40D this has been the case).

 

[Sarpedon]

I certainly think it's possible. I think Canon simply doesn't believe the 'issue' matters to the target market, and they're most likely right.

Certainly plausible, but what's been missing for me is what Canon gets for leaving on-chip out of the 6D2. As others have shown here, there are instances where an 80D or 7D2 gets something the 6D1/6D2 did not (max shutter / sync speed come to mind), and we can associate that with FF being a costly inflection point for the componenetry. And with the 6D1, AF would also fall under that bucket.

What I lack here is the same understanding. I thought once Canon starting using on-chip ADC, there were economies of scale to encourage them to use this new tech on everything unless they were using a hand-me-down sensor from an older product line. So as much as a standalone 26 MP FF sensor (which Canon has never done) would mean new sensor fab regardless of on-chip vs. not on-chip ADC, I'm surprised Canon would save a great deal of money by leaving on-chip ADC out of the picture.

But please educate me if there is some nutty/painful/expensive aspect to this. This is far from my knowledge wheelhouse. I continue to dwell on the (potential) absence of on-chip ADC in the 6D2 as I don't think a soul on the planet thought it would not be there -- it was a ground-floor 'sure thing' expectation.

- A

Beats me. Could even be that the sensor was far along or done a while ago but Canon delayed the camera for some reason, making it a sunk cost they wanted to recoup.

I'm sure they'll be making a ton of money off the thing, but as a long-time 6D user looking to upgrade to something more capable (and more capable for professional work), I'm going to pass on the Mark II.
I don't absolutely need the DR, but it's very helpful for some of the work I do (available light portraiture, daytime urban street photography, landscape, etc), and I don't like the idea of plunking my money down for a sensor that very obviously could have been better but isn't, whatever their reason is. There are a few other things that annoy - no focus-point-linked spot metering, no dual card slots, no 8K shutter speed - but I do a lot of manual focusing with Zeiss lenses and L primes, so the lack of an interchangeable screen really killed my interest. DPAF just isn't enough compensation. I'm sure there'll be a third-party option eventually - focusingscreens.com finally came out with one for the 5D Mark IV a few days ago - but for my very specific needs (note that phrase, forum warriors) the 6D Mark II just seems so..... underwhelming.

 

[LonelyBoy]

So what to do now, i could get 6D2 this friday (21.07) as a special costumer in my shop here, I was waiting for 6D2 so long and now 1 week ago there comes that DR nightmare story or rumor or fact or whatever

I don't need 4k or second SD slot and I am ok with that, I did want arti-screen and DP and touch but i was also hoping for sensor with better DR and ISO at least 1 stop better DR - APSC body even rabel's came with new A/D chip on sensor for like 500$ ( in fact every new body, every body in 2017 came with A/D chip on sensor, and all with digic 7 ) so doesn't it make it strange that 2000$, most selling Canon body would be crippled that hard ??

Would you buy it if you have chance like me to have it this friday or would you wait for like 1-2 month or more because this will be hot seller no matter what and if that DR come to be false or some error than it would sell like very hot and I would have to wait for it even longer - what to do, i will go crazy

if some of you have some info or did try it and know that DR is problem or it is not I would be very thankful if you send me a pm because i know about your "disclosure embargo" or whatever it is called..

Stay calm and keep taking images. If you are in a hurry and your retailer has a good return policy, then by all means keep the preorder and try the camera. If you are not in a hurry, have a decent camera today, then I'll suggest patience and wait for reviews...

Preordering something like this just seems strange to me for all these reasons - it's not a Wii/ Furby/ whatever where there's a supply constraint. You'll be able to buy it from your choice of retailer from release day for half a decade, probably. Even assuming it's as awesome as you expect, does it hurt that much to let it simmer a week and see what the early reviews - both professional and forum-based - say? Unless you had a special event to shoot this weekend, there won't be much of a difference between this weekend and next weekend. Even if you have something this weekend, you probably wouldn't want to do it on the second day you have a new body.

 

[ahsanford]

Preordering something like this just seems strange to me for all these reasons - it's not a Wii/ Furby/ whatever where there's a supply constraint.

Depends on the product and how much of it's value (to you) is tied to it being the best thing currently available. If you are a firster or want to maximize how long a product is the best one for your purposes, you buy on day one to maximize the time before it is 'virtually obsoleted' by a replacement/better offering in the same product class.

This is a better move for products with shorter and more highly predictable lifecycles, like iPhones on a one year model refresh and two-year body design refresh timetable -- but some folks do it for bigger ticket items like camera bodies, computers, cars even.

Shockingly, my 5D3's shutter button continued to work after the 5D4 was announced and I've decided to stick with it until my camera (itself) recognizes the futility of marching onward whilst knowing something better exists. Surely it will become self-aware and brick itself any day now to free me of its shackles and let me buy a nicer product. :

- A

 

[x-vision]

I'm surprised Canon would save a great deal of money by leaving on-chip ADC out of the picture.

Only Canon has the definitive answer for that.

As I said in a previous post, production yields could be a factor.

It's also possible that Canon is saving money by reusing the old 5DS manufacturing lines/equipment (the 5Ds doesn't have on-chip ADCs).

Again, only Canon knows the answer; we can only speculate.

I completely agree with Neuro, though:
Except for a relative small group of buyers that obsess over DR (I'm at the forefront of this group 8) ), most 6DII buyers are unlikely to care.
Think of all users that never do post-processing, for example.

FWIW, I've had my 40D for seven years and I've been lifting shadows just fine.
Now that I have the 80D, I wouldn't go back to a sensor with less DR - but I was quite happy with my 40D while I had it.

 

[LonelyBoy]

Preordering something like this just seems strange to me for all these reasons - it's not a Wii/ Furby/ whatever where there's a supply constraint.

Depends on the product and how much of it's value (to you) is tied to it being the best thing currently available. If you are a firster or want to maximize how long a product is the best one for your purposes, you buy on day one to maximize the time before it is 'virtually obsoleted' by a replacement/better offering in the same product class.

This is a better move for products with shorter and more highly predictable lifecycles, like iPhones on a one year model refresh and two-year body design refresh timetable -- but some folks do it for bigger ticket items like camera bodies, computers, cars even.

Shockingly, my 5D3's shutter button continued to work after the 5D4 was announced and I've decided to stick with it until my camera (itself) recognizes the futility of marching onward whilst knowing something better exists. Surely it will become self-aware and brick itself any day now to free me of its shackles and let me buy a nicer product. :

- A

I know they do; I just think it's silly. Stupid, really. On the lifespan of a body (what, 4-5 years?), what's a week? We're talking about, literally, a week. Is it not worth the money to have it for even one week less of being the "newest" body, or the "current" 6D? Bah. Yes, I say stupid. Having it for an extra week isn't much a payoff for maybe getting something you're disappointed in.

 

[Ozarker]

Preordering something like this just seems strange to me for all these reasons - it's not a Wii/ Furby/ whatever where there's a supply constraint.

Depends on the product and how much of it's value (to you) is tied to it being the best thing currently available. If you are a firster or want to maximize how long a product is the best one for your purposes, you buy on day one to maximize the time before it is 'virtually obsoleted' by a replacement/better offering in the same product class.

This is a better move for products with shorter and more highly predictable lifecycles, like iPhones on a one year model refresh and two-year body design refresh timetable -- but some folks do it for bigger ticket items like camera bodies, computers, cars even.

Shockingly, my 5D3's shutter button continued to work after the 5D4 was announced and I've decided to stick with it until my camera (itself) recognizes the futility of marching onward whilst knowing something better exists. Surely it will become self-aware and brick itself any day now to free me of its shackles and let me buy a nicer product. :

- A

I know they do; I just think it's silly. Stupid, really. On the lifespan of a body (what, 4-5 years?), what's a week? We're talking about, literally, a week. Is it not worth the money to have it for even one week less of being the "newest" body, or the "current" 6D? Bah. Yes, I say stupid. Having it for an extra week isn't much a payoff for maybe getting something you're disappointed in.

You are correct Lonelyboy. I'd never pre-order anything that expensive. "Last week my camera was fine, but next week I just have to have the newest."

I'll never understand that. More money than sense, I guess.

 

[IglooEater]

You are correct Lonelyboy. I'd never pre-order anything that expensive. "Last week my camera was fine, but next week I just have to have the newest."

I'll never understand that. More money than sense, I guess.

I think it's more like, "I've increasingly been wanting to upgrade for 4 years; now I'd really enjoy having it in time to get used to it before going on my bi-annual trip in August." Which would be more my case. Incidentally, no I have not preordered it. Yet.

 

[LonelyBoy]

You are correct Lonelyboy. I'd never pre-order anything that expensive. "Last week my camera was fine, but next week I just have to have the newest."

I'll never understand that. More money than sense, I guess.

I think it's more like, "I've increasingly been wanting to upgrade for 4 years; now I'd really enjoy having it in time to get used to it before going on my bi-annual trip in August." Which would be more my case. Incidentally, no I have not preordered it. Yet.

Right. So you have time to, literally, spend a couple hours over a couple of days reading the reviews to evaluate the purchase before (maybe) going to BB or wherever and buying it? That's what I'd do in that position. Then we'll have some actual information, and all of this chatter will be meaningless. As if it's not already.

It's not like it's going to be sold out.

 

[ahsanford]

You are correct Lonelyboy. I'd never pre-order anything that expensive. "Last week my camera was fine, but next week I just have to have the newest."

I'll never understand that. More money than sense, I guess.

I would pre-order if you (say) completely skipped a buying cycle or you knew a year in advance that this was the rig you wanted and you just needed to confirm [feature X] was onboard. Tilty-flippy + better AF = an instant sale for a lot of people, I'd wager.

In my case, I own a 5D3 and skipped the 5D4 because I don't think it would improve my decidedly amateur output thus far. In effect, my camera is not holding me back at all right now, unless I want to convince myself that scorchingly bright daylight landscapes with foreground in shadow should not require any multi-shot compositing or on-lens contrast management (which is an wildly unreasonable expectation). But should I put in the 'hours in the cockpit' and improve my skills, I could see myself going in on day one for a 5D5 as my next camera.

But this pre-ordering / hedging on FM forum posts / cancelling pre-orders over a (rumored) lack of DR improvement is a bit out there. It implies all the other improvements in the camera don't matter, i.e. that DR is everything. If that's the case, go pick up an A7/A9 rig and adapt your Canon glass and be done with it. I say that out of no disrespect to those with that position so much as a reality check. If you are a 'one-issue voter' with your body-buying decision tree, go to the company that delivers on that issue at the price point you want to pay.

- A

 

[Jack Douglas]

We're all children at heart with a Christmas mentality!

Jack

 

[Loswr]

Preordering something like this just seems strange to me for all these reasons -

Clearly, you're missing the main reason people preorder the 6DII, or any new Canon product...so they can be the one to start the CR Forum topic, "Post your shots with the _________ product."

;D