Analysis of RAW samples at Fred Miranda show weak DR

[CanonCams]

Do reviews come out prior to shipping, or afterwards?

 

[ahsanford]

Do reviews come out prior to shipping, or afterwards?

The more reputable reviews come out very shortly after shipping -- a week after, give or take. Don't trust any that come out before shipping as they may be on pre-production models.

- A

 

[CanonCams]

Do reviews come out prior to shipping, or afterwards?

The more reputable reviews come out very shortly after shipping -- a week after, give or take. Don't trust any that come out before shipping as they may be on pre-production models.

- A

Whats your take on these DR results? Hogwash or unknown?

 

[ahsanford]

For fun, I cross-checked the FM user 'cgarcia' -- who I presume must have a handle here as well -- against other DR predictions ahead of DXO, and here's what I found (link on each body name below):

1DX2:

4/23/16, cgarcia value: 13.55 at 8MP (12.89 at 20MP)
6/29/16, DXO published: 13.5 (they based this on an 8 MP downsampled shot, right?)

80D:

4/3/16, cgarcia value: 13.22 at 8MP (12.43 at 24MP)
6/15/16, DXO published: 13.2

5D4:

9/5/16, cgarcia value: 13.38* (interestingly no 8 MP commentary this time)
9/14/16, DXO published: 13.6

(*cgarcia later updated their post indicating that some nutty RGB phenomenon was going on with the 5D4 not seen elsewhere which affected the result, see the link.)

By no means am I buying this result. The wildcard here with the 6D2 is the RAW file itself, if it truly ran both ends of the histo, what camera it came from, what status that camera was, etc. but... unless dates are being doctored at FM, he/she is two-for-three at the base ISO value measurement.

- A

 

[CanonCams]

For fun, I cross-checked the FM user 'cgarcia' -- who I presume must have a handle here as well -- against other DR predictions ahead of DXO, and here's what I found (link on each body name below):

1DX2:

4/23/16, cgarcia value: 13.55 at 8MP (12.89 at 20MP)
6/29/16, DXO published: 13.5 (they based this on an 8 MP downsampled shot, right?)

80D:

4/3/16, cgarcia value: 13.22 at 8MP (12.43 at 24MP)
6/15/16, DXO published: 13.2

5D4:

9/5/16, cgarcia value: 13.38* (interestingly no 8 MP commentary this time)
9/14/16, DXO published: 13.6

(*cgarcia later updated their post indicating that some nutty RGB phenomenon was going on with the 5D4 not seen elsewhere which affected the result, see the link.)

By no means am I buying this result. The wildcard here with the 6D2 is the RAW file itself, if it truly ran both ends of the histo, what camera it came from, what status that camera was, etc. but... unless dates are being doctored at FM, he/she is two-for-three at the base ISO value measurement.

- A

In other words, there is a high probability this is all correct.

Great.

 

[ahsanford]

In other words, there is a high probability this is all correct.

Great.

I'm not there at all. The methodology could be perfectly sound -- I defer to the much brighter people here than me on the minutiae of his/her approach -- but the RAW file and the camera that captured it is a colossal unknown.

As usual, I'll wait for the DXO's and photons to photos folks to do their thing.

- A

 

[dak723]

In other words, there is a high probability this is all correct.

Great.

...but the RAW file and the camera that captured it is a colossal unknown.

Yes, we don't even know that this was legitimately a 6D II.
We don't know how or with what it was converted.
We don't know if this a complete hoax or a plant by Nikon or Sony.
So, by all means, panic, theorize, complain, and make fools of yourselves.

 

[padam]

Raw files seem legit to me. If it is relevant from a testing point of view is another matter, so many different factors. Dynamic range is not that easy to measure, since some cameras have better headroom in the highlights and others in the shadows.

From dpreview: According to Canon representatives, the 6D Mark II should outperform the original 6D (which it very evidently does) but may not offer the same kind of dynamic range and absolute resolution of the EOS 5D Mark IV.

So it is pretty safe to say it won't be as good as a 5D IV but unlike that claim it may not be that different from the original 6D.

 

[unfocused]

In other words, there is a high probability this is all correct.

Great.

...but the RAW file and the camera that captured it is a colossal unknown.

Yes, we don't even know that this was legitimately a 6D II.
We don't know how or with what it was converted.
We don't know if this a complete hoax or a plant by Nikon or Sony.
So, by all means, panic, theorize, complain, and make fools of yourselves.

This and the companion threads are hilarious. All this panicking over a "test" done by some random person on the internet. Not to mention that even if actual, legitimate testing bears out these "findings," the results are insignificant to the real world use of the camera.

Oh no! I just checked Amazon Best Sellers and this "news" is having a devastating effect on pre-orders...wait...let me check again...Never mind...the 6DII is the best selling full-frame DSLR on Amazon...followed by the 5DIV and the original 6D.

Where's Nikon?...Oh there it is...Number 27, just above the 5DIII at Number 28.

Canon is doomed!

 

[Loswr]

So DPR has become DRP = DR Preview.

Well, Amazon's rising star Rishi will be along any day to tell us how poor the 6DII's IQ is, compared to its 'best-performing peers' like the D810 and a7R II.

 

[SecureGSM]

now, that would be one irresistably tempting camera body for all events shooters out there! note to self: keep on dreaming, boy!

Well, some people here on CR complain that Canon doesn't innovate, so they should be more like Nikon and Sony. Nikon recently launched their flagship D5 with less low ISO DR than its predecessor. So maybe Canon is now innovating just like Nikon. That should make people happy, right?

If it turns out to be a high ISO killer instead of low ISO glory, I'll be very happy indeed. Both would be bacon.

 

[danyboyxd]

this is a jpg i found on this page https://www.shutterbug.com/content/canon-intros-6d-mark-ii-dslr-we-test-it-out-yellowstone-hands-preview-test-images.

i edited in LR5 ind pushed up the shadows and applied some noise reduction. this is a jpg editing so i believe that raw editing will be very impresive

 

[ahsanford]

So DPR has become DRP = DR Preview.

#DRsnap

 

[Jack Douglas]

So DPR has become DRP = DR Preview.

Well, Amazon's rising star Rishi will be along any day to tell us how poor the 6DII's IQ is, compared to its 'best-performing peers' like the D810 and a7R II.

Let the fun begin! Rishi, where are you?

Jack

 

[ahsanford]

So much for folks not repeating the error of testing rando RAW files -- now PtP is getting in on it:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/59811093

"The preliminary results are based on the same CR2 files that have been discussed elsewhere."

:

- A

 

[M42]

Yes, we don't even know that this was legitimately a 6D II.

There are two series of CR2 leaked. The first was by a well known photographer from New Zealand who has a long history on FM and was self hosting the shots. The second is from some random guy in Asia who took the files during a demo. There is a third guy on DPR who claims to have some files now.
The read-out noise numbers are matching between the images of the two first series, for multiple ISO values, as well as the EXIF data. Here's one of the EXIF :

ExifTool Version Number         : 9.74
File Name                       : IMG_9317.CR2
Directory                       : .
File Size                       : 27 MB
File Modification Date/Time     : 2017:07:09 15:00:50-07:00
File Access Date/Time           : 2017:07:09 21:48:42-07:00
File Inode Change Date/Time     : 2017:07:08 15:22:31-07:00
File Permissions                : rw-r--r--
File Type                       : CR2
MIME Type                       : image/x-canon-cr2
Exif Byte Order                 : Little-endian (Intel, II)
Image Width                     : 6240
Image Height                    : 4160
Bits Per Sample                 : 8 8 8
Compression                     : JPEG (old-style)
Make                            : Canon
Camera Model Name               : Canon EOS 6D Mark II
Preview Image Start             : 63856
Orientation                     : Horizontal (normal)
Preview Image Length            : 1847768
X Resolution                    : 72
Y Resolution                    : 72
Resolution Unit                 : inches
Modify Date                     : 2017:07:09 15:00:17
Artist                          : 
Rating                          : 0
Copyright                       : 
Exposure Time                   : 30
F Number                        : 4.0
Exposure Program                : Aperture-priority AE
ISO                             : 100
Sensitivity Type                : Recommended Exposure Index
Recommended Exposure Index      : 100
Exif Version                    : 0230
Date/Time Original              : 2017:07:09 15:00:17
Create Date                     : 2017:07:09 15:00:17
Components Configuration        : Y, Cb, Cr, -
Shutter Speed Value             : 32
Aperture Value                  : 4.0
Flash                           : Off, Did not fire
Focal Length                    : 35.0 mm
Macro Mode                      : Normal
Self Timer                      : Off
Quality                         : RAW
Canon Flash Mode                : Off
Continuous Drive                : Single
Focus Mode                      : One-shot AF
Record Mode                     : CR2
Canon Image Size                : n/a
Easy Mode                       : Manual
Digital Zoom                    : None
Contrast                        : Normal
Saturation                      : Normal
Metering Mode                   : Evaluative
Focus Range                     : Not Known
Canon Exposure Mode             : Aperture-priority AE
Lens Type                       : Canon EF 16-35mm f/4L IS USM
Max Focal Length                : 35 mm
Min Focal Length                : 16 mm
Focal Units                     : 1/mm
Max Aperture                    : 4
Min Aperture                    : 23
Flash Activity                  : 0
Flash Bits                      : (none)
Zoom Source Width               : 0
Zoom Target Width               : 0
Manual Flash Output             : n/a
Color Tone                      : Normal
SRAW Quality                    : n/a
Auto ISO                        : 100
Base ISO                        : 100
Measured EV                     : -1.50
Target Aperture                 : 4
Target Exposure Time            : 1
Exposure Compensation           : +1/3
White Balance                   : Shade
Slow Shutter                    : None
Shot Number In Continuous Burst : 0
Optical Zoom Code               : n/a
Camera Temperature              : 19 C
Flash Guide Number              : 0
Flash Exposure Compensation     : 0
Auto Exposure Bracketing        : Off
AEB Bracket Value               : 0
Control Mode                    : Camera Local Control
Measured EV 2                   : -1.5
Bulb Duration                   : 0
Camera Type                     : EOS High-end
ND Filter                       : n/a
Canon Image Type                : Canon EOS 6D Mark II
Canon Firmware Version          : Firmware Version 1.0.2
Canon Model ID                  : Unknown (0x80000406)
Thumbnail Image Valid Area      : 0 159 7 112
AF Area Mode                    : Flexizone Single
Num AF Points                   : 63
Valid AF Points                 : 1
Canon Image Width               : 6240
Canon Image Height              : 4160
AF Image Width                  : 6240
AF Image Height                 : 4160
AF Area Widths                  : 552 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
AF Area Heights                 : 450 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
AF Area X Positions             : 128 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
AF Area Y Positions             : -576 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
AF Points In Focus              : (none)
AF Points Selected              : 0
Time Zone                       : +12:00
Time Zone City                  : Wellington
Daylight Savings                : Off
Bracket Mode                    : Off
Bracket Value                   : 0
Bracket Shot Number             : 0
Raw Jpg Size                    : Large
WB Bracket Mode                 : Off
WB Bracket Value AB             : 0
WB Bracket Value GM             : 0
Live View Shooting              : On
Focus Distance Upper            : inf
Focus Distance Lower            : 81.91 m
Flash Exposure Lock             : Off
Internal Serial Number          : KK0003551
Dust Removal Data               : (Binary data 1024 bytes, use -b option to extract)
Crop Left Margin                : 0
Crop Right Margin               : 0
Crop Top Margin                 : 0
Crop Bottom Margin              : 0
Exposure Level Increments       : 1/3 Stop
ISO Speed Increments            : 1/3 Stop
AEB Auto Cancel                 : On
AEB Sequence                    : 0,-,+
AEB Shot Count                  : 3 shots
Safety Shift                    : Disable
AI Servo Tracking Sensitivity   : Standard
Acceleration Tracking           : 0
AI Servo Tracking Method        : Main focus point priority
AI Servo First Image Priority   : Equal priority
AI Servo Second Image Priority  : Equal priority
AF Assist Beam                  : Emits
Lens Drive No AF                : Focus search on
Select AF Area Select Mode      : Disable; Flags 0x57
AF Area Select Method           : AF area selection button
Orientation Linked AF Point     : Same for vertical and horizontal
Manual AF Point Select Pattern  : Stops at AF area edges
AF Point Display During Focus   : On
AF Microadjustment              : Disable; 0; 0; 0; 0; 0; 0; 101; 84; 9; 216; 255; 255; 255; 255; 255
Viewfinder Warnings             : Monochrome, WB corrected, [6], [7]
Dial Direction Tv Av            : Normal
Custom Controls                 : 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Aspect Ratio                    : 3:2
Cropped Image Width             : 6240
Cropped Image Height            : 4160
Cropped Image Left              : 0
Cropped Image Top               : 0
Tone Curve                      : Standard
Sharpness                       : 4
Sharpness Frequency             : n/a
Sensor Red Level                : 0
Sensor Blue Level               : 0
White Balance Red               : 0
White Balance Blue              : 0
Color Temperature               : 5200
Picture Style                   : Landscape
Digital Gain                    : 0
WB Shift AB                     : 0
WB Shift GM                     : 0
Measured RGGB                   : 248 1024 1024 1096
VRD Offset                      : 0
Sensor Width                    : 6384
Sensor Height                   : 4224
Sensor Left Border              : 132
Sensor Top Border               : 56
Sensor Right Border             : 6371
Sensor Bottom Border            : 4215
Black Mask Left Border          : 0
Black Mask Top Border           : 0
Black Mask Right Border         : 0
Black Mask Bottom Border        : 0
Color Data Version              : Unknown (15)
Custom Picture Style File Name  : 
AF Micro Adj Mode               : Disable
AF Micro Adj Value              : 0
Warning                         : Invalid VignettingCorrUnknown2 data
Peripheral Lighting Setting     : On
Chromatic Aberration Setting    : On
Auto Lighting Optimizer         : Standard
Ambience Selection              : Standard
Grainy B/W Filter               : Off
Soft Focus Filter               : Off
Toy Camera Filter               : Off
Miniature Filter                : Off
Miniature Filter Orientation    : Horizontal
Miniature Filter Position       : 0
Miniature Filter Parameter      : 0
Fisheye Filter                  : Off
Painting Filter                 : Off
Watercolor Filter               : Off
User Comment                    : 
Sub Sec Time                    : 18
Sub Sec Time Original           : 18
Sub Sec Time Digitized          : 18
Flashpix Version                : 0100
Color Space                     : sRGB
Exif Image Width                : 6240
Exif Image Height               : 4160
Interoperability Index          : R98 - DCF basic file (sRGB)
Interoperability Version        : 0100
Focal Plane X Resolution        : 6673.796791
Focal Plane Y Resolution        : 6720.516963
Focal Plane Resolution Unit     : inches
Custom Rendered                 : Normal
Exposure Mode                   : Auto
Scene Capture Type              : Standard
Owner Name                      : 
Serial Number                   : 015021000025
Lens Info                       : 16-35mm f/0
Lens Model                      : EF16-35mm f/4L IS USM
Lens Serial Number              : <REMOVED>
GPS Version ID                  : 2.3.0.0
Thumbnail Offset                : 54424
Thumbnail Length                : 9431
Photometric Interpretation      : RGB
Samples Per Pixel               : 3
Rows Per Strip                  : 416
Planar Configuration            : Chunky
Strip Offsets                   : 3469128
Strip Byte Counts               : 24905249
Raw Image Segmentation          : 0 6384 6384
Aperture                        : 4.0
Drive Mode                      : Single-frame Shooting
Image Size                      : 6240x4160
Lens                            : 16.0 - 35.0 mm
Lens ID                         : Canon EF 16-35mm f/4L IS USM
Preview Image                   : (Binary data 1847768 bytes, use -b option to extract)
Scale Factor To 35 mm Equivalent: 1.5
Shooting Mode                   : Aperture-priority AE
Shutter Speed                   : 30
Create Date                     : 2017:07:09 15:00:17.18
Date/Time Original              : 2017:07:09 15:00:17.18
Modify Date                     : 2017:07:09 15:00:17.18
Thumbnail Image                 : (Binary data 9431 bytes, use -b option to extract)
Circle Of Confusion             : 0.020 mm
Field Of View                   : 37.4 deg
Focal Length                    : 35.0 mm (35 mm equivalent: 53.2 mm)
Hyperfocal Distance             : 15.48 m
Lens                            : 16.0 - 35.0 mm (35 mm equivalent: 24.3 - 53.2 mm)
Light Value                     : -0.9

And to remain objective : yes the EXIF can be modified by an external and does not constitute, by itself, a sufficient proof of authenticity.

We don't know how or with what it was converted.

The CR2 was directly dumped to a 16 bits TIFF via DCRAW, no modifications, no debayering. We are only interested in measuring the read noise from the masked portions of the sensor. This is also a sufficient information to deduce a peak dynamic range and compare to other models, all without being dependent on the scene shot.
What we see is that the two cameras have more read-noise in DN than the 5D4 as well as the original 6D and the 80D at low ISO. This is very surprising.

We don't know if this a complete hoax or a plant by Nikon or Sony.

Pretty elaborate hoax then. The data looks legit at the moment.

So, by all means, panic, theorize, complain, and make fools of yourselves.

I am personally not panicking. I just want to know what kind of performance the camera has before spending 2K$+ on it.

 

[AlanF]

Those curves are from Bill Claff (PhotonsToPhotos.net) who is very respected, so they should be taken seriously.

 

[Aglet]

So DPR has become DRP = DR Preview.

Well, Amazon's rising star Rishi will be along any day to tell us how poor the 6DII's IQ is, compared to its 'best-performing peers' like the D810 and a7R II.

Let the fun begin! Rishi, where are you?

Jack

if low ISO noise performance is what you're after, 6d2 likely will be disappointing compared to a d810 no matter what.

But will it be disappointing compared to the original 6D?..
Certainly hope not for the sake of all you Canonites... Cuz if the 6d2 low iso IQ continues to suck, I might choke a little on my lunch while I'm chuckling.... again.

... won't know until shipping product is tested by someplace like DxOmark...
Cross your fingers, Canon-faithful... prepare to be disappointed because pleasantly surprised is not something you get very often from this co.

 

[Otara]

Anything is possible and I can hypothesise Canon having fears over the 6D2 being too close to the 5DIV, but its hard to make sense of this result as given.

 

[Loswr]

Those curves are from Bill Claff (PhotonsToPhotos.net) who is very respected, so they should be taken seriously.

Actually, my respect for Bill dropped a notch with this analysis of a leaked RAW file from a preproduction camera, with potential unknown (and unknowable) differences from the production units not yet available.