Analysis of RAW samples at Fred Miranda show weak DR

Jul 28, 2015
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Joules said:
Just to clarify: I don't think Canon is doomed and I don't think that the 6DII will be a bad camera or truly worse than the competition. It just doesn't feel 2000€ good at the moment to me, so I will wait for the price to come down a good bit before actually making any purchases. I'm still looking forward to that, I'd just do that with even more excitement if Canon hadn't added such a compromise between the 1000€ 80D and 2000€ 6DII.

Don't get me wrong. I believe 'pride of ownership' is as valid a reason for buying a camera as any and if that 'pride' comes from knowing it has on-chip DAC, then so be it. I will not argue with that.
It is just that using words such as 'compromise' between the 80D and 6D2 suggests to me you are using a justification for that 'pride of ownership' that is not really relevant. The 80D has a APS-C sensor, the 6D2 has FF sensor. Stating 'compromise' only comes into it if you know the different cost and design decisions that went into the 6D2 and the 80D and too many criticisms are based on 'it does not cost much so they should have put it in at no extra cost'.
Given a choice between 80D with on-chip DAC and 6D2 with off-chip DAC I would choose the 6D2 every time. The 6D beats the 80D in image quality so I see no reason the 6D2 would not.
 
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Jul 21, 2010
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Otara said:
I dont think anxiety is warranted, the question is more whether the 6D or 5d3 becomes a much better option than the 6D2, given the difference in cost and essentially the same sensor. Let alone as an upgrade if you already have one of those.

Yeah, if you're one of those for whom a dSLR comprises a sensor encased in an essentially useless bit of plastic and metal that functions only to hold a lens to project image onto that sensor, hold a battery to power that sensor, and hold a memory card to record images captured by that sensor, then you probably shouldn't buy a 6DII.

I suspect Canon knows that the vast majority of dSLR buyers care about how well a camera takes pictures, and those buyers understand that a camera is more than just a sensor case.

Incidentally, why would you even consider recommending a 5DIII? After all, the 5DIII merely improved on the 5DII in almost every aspect of camera performance except the sensor, which apparently to you is no improvement at all.
 
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Joules

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Thanks also from me to unfocused and Mikehit!

Good input, your reasonable words certainly help enduring the wait for real reviews and concentrating on more important matters. I'm glad I joined the forum and got some perspectives on the topic.

Despite just having registered today, I'm actually a long time reader of this site and forum. I checked it frequently during the last two years, mostly for news on the 6DII. So I got quite a heavy dose of 'Canon is Doomed' and all the fighting that can go on in some threads here and it is certainly not helpfull :D
 
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Jul 16, 2012
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neuroanatomist said:
Otara said:
I dont think anxiety is warranted, the question is more whether the 6D or 5d3 becomes a much better option than the 6D2, given the difference in cost and essentially the same sensor. Let alone as an upgrade if you already have one of those.

Yeah, if you're one of those for whom a dSLR comprises a sensor encased in an essentially useless bit of plastic and metal that functions only to hold a lens to project image onto that sensor, hold a battery to power that sensor, and hold a memory card to record images captured by that sensor, then you probably shouldn't buy a 6DII.

I suspect Canon knows that the vast majority of dSLR buyers care about how well a camera takes pictures, and those buyers understand that a camera is more than just a sensor case.

Incidentally, why would you even consider recommending a 5DIII? After all, the 5DIII merely improved on the 5DII in almost every aspect of camera performance except the sensor, which apparently to you is no improvement at all.

Maybe Im trying to justify my own decision. I got a very cheap 5d3 as a replacement with the idea Id resell it for the 6D2.

Except now I dont feel particularly convinced it would be worth the price difference. Yes there are some nice additions to the 6DII, but you're paying a lot for them in my view - and theres even things you give up (af, cards, joystick etc). Other people will decide differently obviously.

Previously it was the 6D vs the 5D2 as an alternative, and in my view the difference there was more compelling.
 
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SecureGSM

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Otara,

What Neuro said regarding 5DII vs 6D is not quite correct, I trust that it was a bit of a sarcasm on his side as he is aware of the differences. you expained that very well: AF system, metering system, card slots, joystick, low light AF point sensitivity improved as well, etc. I am in the same boat and tends to agree with you. low shutter, mint 5D IV body makes better sense to me at the moment. I am looking for a mint 5D III body locally and it seems that I will be able to source one at around A$1,700.00 (US$1,350.00).
Otara said:
neuroanatomist said:
... Incidentally, why would you even consider recommending a 5DIII? After all, the 5DIII merely improved on the 5DII in almost every aspect of camera performance except the sensor, which apparently to you is no improvement at all.

Maybe Im trying to justify my own decision. I got a very cheap 5d3 as a replacement with the idea Id resell it for the 6D2.

Except now I dont feel particularly convinced it would be worth the price difference. Yes there are some nice additions to the 6DII, but you're paying a lot for them in my view - and theres even things you give up (af, cards, joystick etc). Other people will decide differently obviously.

Previously it was the 6D vs the 5D2 as an alternative, and in my view the difference there was more compelling.
 
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Jul 21, 2010
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SecureGSM said:
Otara,

What Neuro said regarding 5DII vs 6D is not quite correct, I trust that it was a bit of a sarcasm on his side as he is aware of the differences. you expained that very well: AF system, metering system, card slots, joystick, low light AF point sensitivity improved as well, etc.

I think you missed my point. I was actually comparing the 5DII to the 5DIII, an upgrade which is shaping up to be similar to the 6D vs 6DII. When the 5DIII came out, the camera = sensor folks (I almost wrote 'crowd', but really it was just a handful of people on forums) complained that it wasn't really an upgrade at all — basically, Otara stated the same about 6DII. Yet compared to its predecessor, the 6DII gets a big AF improvement, better frame rate, better metering, all examples of improvements seen on the 5DIII. However, the 5DIII didn't offer major IQ improvements, which is rumored to be the case for the 6DII as well. Except the 6DII got cheaper instead of more expensive.
 
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neuroanatomist said:
SecureGSM said:
Otara,

What Neuro said regarding 5DII vs 6D is not quite correct, I trust that it was a bit of a sarcasm on his side as he is aware of the differences. you expained that very well: AF system, metering system, card slots, joystick, low light AF point sensitivity improved as well, etc.

I think you missed my point. I was actually comparing the 5DII to the 5DIII, an upgrade which is shaping up to be similar to the 6D vs 6DII. When the 5DIII came out, the camera = sensor folks (I almost wrote 'crowd', but really it was just a handful of people on forums) complained that it wasn't really an upgrade at all — basically, Otara stated the same about 6DII. Yet compared to its predecessor, the 6DII gets a big AF improvement, better frame rate, better metering, all examples of improvements seen on the 5DIII. However, the 5DIII didn't offer major IQ improvements, which is rumored to be the case for the 6DII as well. Except the 6DII got cheaper instead of more expensive.

Because I wasn't into photography when the 5d3 came out, what was the competition like in comparison? I have the original 6d now, and am wondering how the owners of the 5d2 saw the mk3: for my uses, the new 6d isn't enough of an improvement to consider the upgrade, at least not for the price, so I'll be watching what the brands come out with. Was the competition from Nikon, Sony etc the as close back in 2012?
 
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Jul 16, 2012
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I guess for me they seem like very different times. I didnt have to decide between an older camera with better AF and the same sensor and a more expensive camera with worse AF and the same sensor. Yes other things are involved, but given one of the major complaints about the 6D was its AF, its an interesting choice to end up with. For me, Ill take better AF and AF options over what else is on offer. Others will obviously decide differently.

When the 6D came out, its natural competitor as far as Im concerned was the 5D2, which it did well against. Now as far as Im concerned its the 5D3, and in my view its a pretty tough call. Pretty great to have these choices in my view, but obviously an even more compelling option with the 6d2 would have been nice to see.

Otara
 
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Jul 21, 2010
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Isaacheus said:
Because I wasn't into photography when the 5d3 came out, what was the competition like in comparison? I have the original 6d now, and am wondering how the owners of the 5d2 saw the mk3: for my uses, the new 6d isn't enough of an improvement to consider the upgrade, at least not for the price, so I'll be watching what the brands come out with. Was the competition from Nikon, Sony etc the as close back in 2012?

The Nikon D800 and the Sony a7R were contemporaries of the 5DIII. Some of the camera = sensor folks claimed they were going to switch. Most didn't. The limited evidence we have suggests that the 5DIII outsold the D800, and both easily outsold the a7R.
 
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Jul 21, 2010
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Otara said:
When the 6D came out, its natural competitor as far as Im concerned was the 5D2, which it did well against.

The 5DII was launched in September, 2008. The 6D was launched in November, 2012. Are you actually suggesting that the 'natural competitor' for the 6D was a camera released more than four years previously?
 
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SecureGSM

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thank you for the clarification. yes, IQ wise 5DIII vs 5DII was not a major step forward. perhaps lesser banding in the shadows with the 5DIII?? a bit cleaner high ISO?
But as you noted, camera is more than IQ system and for me 5DIII represents a better camera than 6DII for my applications. And incindentally is a better value. mint 5DIII (A$1,700) vs brand new 6DII (A$2,500). I am very enthusiastic about the upgrade after I spent a day shooting 5DIII and found it to be much more comfortable to shoot with than with 6D original

neuroanatomist said:
SecureGSM said:
Otara,

What Neuro said regarding 5DII vs 6D is not quite correct, I trust that it was a bit of a sarcasm on his side as he is aware of the differences. you expained that very well: AF system, metering system, card slots, joystick, low light AF point sensitivity improved as well, etc.

I think you missed my point. I was actually comparing the 5DII to the 5DIII, an upgrade which is shaping up to be similar to the 6D vs 6DII. When the 5DIII came out, the camera = sensor folks (I almost wrote 'crowd', but really it was just a handful of people on forums) complained that it wasn't really an upgrade at all — basically, Otara stated the same about 6DII. Yet compared to its predecessor, the 6DII gets a big AF improvement, better frame rate, better metering, all examples of improvements seen on the 5DIII. However, the 5DIII didn't offer major IQ improvements, which is rumored to be the case for the 6DII as well. Except the 6DII got cheaper instead of more expensive.
 
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Jul 16, 2012
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neuroanatomist said:
Otara said:
When the 6D came out, its natural competitor as far as Im concerned was the 5D2, which it did well against.

The 5DII was launched in September, 2008. The 6D was launched in November, 2012. Are you actually suggesting that the 'natural competitor' for the 6D was a camera released more than four years previously?

Yes. Im surprised thats considered particularly controversial.
 
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unfocused

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Otara said:
neuroanatomist said:
Otara said:
When the 6D came out, its natural competitor as far as Im concerned was the 5D2, which it did well against.

The 5DII was launched in September, 2008. The 6D was launched in November, 2012. Are you actually suggesting that the 'natural competitor' for the 6D was a camera released more than four years previously?

Yes. Im surprised thats considered particularly controversial.

I'm not sure competitor is the most accurate term. I do recall that many people on this forum considered the 6D to be comparable to the 5D II in specs. But I also believe that once people started buying and using the 6D they found it performed quite a bit better than the 5D II, although you did lose the ergonomics of the 5 series, which is no small consideration for many people.
 
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Feb 26, 2012
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Joules said:
Mikehit said:
There are pros out there still using the original 5D or 5Dii. I defy you to look at a 20" print in isolation and tell me what camera was used. Hell, I defy any DRone to tell me.
I don't disagree with you from a rational perspective. But if your point is that nobody can be disappointed in the lack of ADC, I don't feel the same. It feels like compromising the reason to upgrade to FF: Image Quality. For me the 6DII competes most strongly with the 80D, since I am invested in Canon Equipment. If "You pay more you get more" would apply here, there wouldn't be any bad aftertaste there. But it seems like it doesn't.

For me, it is less about the outcome than the way to get there. Photography is still just a hobby for me and to be honest, the quality of my images will probably always be limited by me and my own skills. What I'm really looking for is having fun with my hobby. And that involves being flexibel to try out all the stuff that I might want to try now and in the future. For flexibility, having more than you might typically need is quite nice, I think. At least I'd much rather have too much than too little, be it money, time or dynamic range. Maybe that mindset excludes me from the group of people that Canon determined to be their target market.

Still. It's about fun, and it is always fun to try out new things without having to worry that it's the gear stopping you from doing it. I also enjoy pixel peeping with a lot of my images, and just thinking "Dang, that's sharp!" when shooting with the Sigma 35mm 1.4 Art. I have no doubt that I can get more fun and better pictures out of the 6DII than out of the T3i and that it wouldn't be different with any other body. Sadly, there is simply more to the emotional side of justifying such a price tag than that reasonable approach. Does being unreasonable really make it unimportant?

Just to clarify: I don't think Canon is doomed and I don't think that the 6DII will be a bad camera or truly worse than the competition. It just doesn't feel 2000€ good at the moment to me, so I will wait for the price to come down a good bit before actually making any purchases. I'm still looking forward to that, I'd just do that with even more excitement if Canon hadn't added such a compromise between the 1000€ 80D and 2000€ 6DII.

You nailed it! :)
 
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Feb 26, 2012
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all the accolades given by various reviews and fan boys in agreement are less useful to some of us than the negative issues expressed by far fewer people whose use is actually impacted by some technical issue.

That's because everything HAS reached a point where it's all very good. But the minor issues that don't bother the majority of users can be critical to others.
So those negative voices ARE worth listenting to if you are one of those who is trying to decide and have specific requirements.

The, "Don't worry. Be happy," type advice is soothing to amatuers but disguises possible problems some may encounter if they want to get a little more creative.

unfocused said:
Jschmitt said:
...I feel like I'm in one of Canon's target markets for this camera...

...I've been saving up for a FF for multiple years and have been waiting specifically for this camera. I've spent way too many hours on this site and forum trying to glean what the specs of this camera would be and when it would finally be released...

...When the specifications were released, I was about 95% sure that I was going to buy this camera...Maybe I was just being naive, but it didn't even occur to me as a possibility that the DR wouldn't have some improvement from the 6D...

...As this is a big purchase for someone like me, I was obviously going to wait for the reviews but the reviews were likely just a formality. Given all of the "little things" that have come out (lack of improvement of DR, somewhat compressed AF points, etc.) I've gone from 95% to probably 50% in terms of whether or not I'll get this camera. The reviews have gone from a formality to a necessity - and I'll probably spend a lot of time on DP playing with their DR and ISO studio scenes...

...I'll being looking at reviews from a lot of different sites to come to a conclusion. That being said, Canon has not made this the "easy buy" that it could have or should have been for someone like me.

I understand your concerns, but frankly, this is one of the things I hate about this forum.

The 6DII has not even been released, but self-appointed experts are already "testing" the camera that they don't even have in their physical possession.

These people mean well, but unfortunately, it's difficult for people like you to keep these pronouncements in perspective because others are all too eager to jump on these preliminary "findings" and exploit them to confirm and reinforce their personal biases.

The dynamic range debate has been around for years. Everyone needs to draw their own conclusion. I fall somewhere in the middle. I can see advantages to greater dynamic range in some of the work I do (For example, sports in harsh daylight with the players in white uniforms whose faces are often buried deep inside the shadows of a cap). But, we all got along okay for years/decades with film and sensors that had far less range than those generally available today.

Massive assumptions are being made about the technology of the 6DII sensor (on-chip analog to digital conversions). At this point it is all rumor and speculation.

By all means, when the camera comes out, read every review you can find. I'm not a DPR hater. I find their reviews are thorough and, I think, fair. No camera is perfect and while I realize that the price of the 6DII represents a substantial investment, it's not realistic to expect it to be perfect, or even up to the standards of the 5DIV or the 1DX II. By reading reviews from DPR, The Digital Picture and others, you will get a much better and more realistic perspective on the pros and cons of the camera.

If you are still undecided, rent one from Lens Rentals for a week and judge for yourself.

I am willing to bet, though, that once you have the camera in hand, you will find your worries dissolve.

The differences being debated on these pages are tiny and have very little impact on real world use. Bear in mind that it is in the best interests of those who are conducting these "tests" to amplify the significance of insignificant differences.

Good luck and don't let these silly internet debates keep you from enjoying your hobby.

Jack Douglas said:
"The differences being debated on these pages are tiny and have very little impact on real world use. Bear in mind that it is in the best interests of those who are conducting these "tests" to amplify the significance of insignificant differences."

Exactly. While forums are useful they also increase anxiety levels.

Jack
 
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Feb 26, 2012
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rrcphoto said:
Khalai said:
Joules said:
I think my concerns with the 6DII are mainly my ability to lift shadows, since I do that frequently with my macro work to give the image a hint of an unnatural HDR effect, which I like to underline the alien apperance of most bugs. But I shoot macro mostly at ISO 400, rarely at 200 or 800. I guess with a 6DII I would be mostly at 800 or higher, to get more out of the ambient light. Am I mistaken in thinking that with these high-ish ISOs the ability to pull up shadows isn't affected by on vs off sensor ADC?

At ISO 400-800, playing field is effectively leveled across all FF cameras from various brands (there are few minor exceptions as usual, irrelevant in real scenarios), so it should not matter that much.

Also, shadow push means just how far you want to go. I've been succesfully lifting shadows from my 6D images without any trouble, if one is reasonable. +2-3 EVstops push with selective +50-75 Shadows slider (Lightroom) is doable with a little noise. Nobody cares about 5-6 EV stops pushes except for DRones and measurebators anyway :)

the funny thing is that the D810, the holy grail for the DR measurabators has extreme banding at it's higher pushes - however hardly anyone ever comments on that. not even the masters of DR reporting, dpreview for some reason - just like they never reported on the other holy grail .. the D7100 has having extreme color casting on heavy pushes.

AFAIK the d7100 did not use a Sony sensor... Was a Toshiba or some other contracted mfr and the performance of that model was not as good as expected.
The d7200, whatever sensor is in it, performs very well, it seems.

d810 banding?.. link please.
I can push the heck out of my d800s... no visible FPN at the ISOs I used it.
 
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Feb 26, 2012
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neuroanatomist said:
I was actually comparing the 5DII to the 5DIII, an upgrade which is shaping up to be similar to the 6D vs 6DII. ..Except the 6DII got cheaper instead of more expensive.

good comparison

but is the 6d2 actually showing up cheaper than the original 6d?
did you adjust for inflation and currency exchange rates?
Or do you just expect us to believe what you say without showing us the proof? ;)
 
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