Analysis of RAW samples at Fred Miranda show weak DR

[Adelino]

I am looking forward to new posts from users. Photos and options.

 

[lightwriter]

I'm jeolous, I was hoping for a similar notification as I'm going on a trip on the 28th and would have loved to have taken the new camera. But I think I've accepted I'll be taking one of my Fuji cameras into the wilderness.

I'm also leaving on a trip on the 28th and was hoping to have it by then. This morning, they told me it would ship on 7/29 (and I ordered within 5 minutes of the official announcement).

 

[hbr]

I'm jeolous, I was hoping for a similar notification as I'm going on a trip on the 28th and would have loved to have taken the new camera. But I think I've accepted I'll be taking one of my Fuji cameras into the wilderness.

I'm also leaving on a trip on the 28th and was hoping to have it by then. This morning, they told me it would ship on 6/29 (and I ordered within 5 minutes of the official announcement).

Did you mean 7/29?
Where did you pre-order it from? I pre-ordered from B&H Photo and have heard nothing. Their website says they expect the camera on 7/27.

 

[lightwriter]

I'm also leaving on a trip on the 28th and was hoping to have it by then. This morning, they told me it would ship on 6/29 (and I ordered within 5 minutes of the official announcement).

Did you mean 7/29?
Where did you pre-order it from? I pre-ordered from B&H Photo and have heard nothing. Their website says they expect the camera on 7/27.
[/quote]

Yeah, 7/29. I'll correct that. Ordered from Adorama.

 

[lightwriter]

Did you mean 7/29?
Where did you pre-order it from? I pre-ordered from B&H Photo and have heard nothing. Their website says they expect the camera on 7/27.

I just heard from Helen Oster at Adorama. She said the units are in the warehouse, and she's waiting to find out when they start shipping. If Adorama has them, you can be sure B&H do. The only question is when do they ship.

 

[Adelino]

I am looking forward to new posts from users. Photos and options.

oops meant photos and OPINIONS!

 

[IglooEater]

Well if consumption is your gauge than the iphone is the best camera in the world and you can't eat a better burger than mcdonalds.
Also Justin Bieber is a musical genius and we have come full circle...

Judging market wishes by consumption is also faulty in numerous ways, the market doesn't want a buggy version of windows that bsods randomly, but it consumes it in droves. It wants an iphone with a headphone jack and an macbook with usb ports, but buys them without them in record numbers.

If your Windows BSODs randomly, figure out what your issue is. Windows has been quite stable since Windows 2000, unless you have bad hardware or malware.

We, by the way, have not come full circle; you've just repeated your Bieber argument. You really think that just wins it for you, don't you?

The 95s and 98s I worked with were plenty stable. I've heard otherwise regarding XP, and especially Vista.

XP? Seriously? XP was worshipped so hard I still know people who swear by it (and, scarily, run it). Vista had issues, but not BSOD issues. 95 and 98, the old 16-bit (partly) codebase, had issues and gained more over the life of an installation. I have never, ever, had 2000, XP, 7, 8, or 10 (the full 32-bit NT kernel) BSOD without an identifiable hardware or software issue to be resolved. The same things that affect Linux and Macs.

Yup. XP. My parents' and brother's XPs confirmed my decision to go mac. bsod every day. Or more than that. Plus all kinds of other programs freezing. No Vista, never bsod'ed it would freeze before it got there on what was a high performance machine at the time. The thing would just randomly turn off and the screen went black. Again, more than once a day. Also painfully slow. Had to give it to XP, next to Vista it was blazingly fast. I was fortunate enough to hardly ever have to run them.
I never ever had MacOS freeze. ever. A third party app will occasionally stop responding. But my baseline mbp is 8 years old now, so I can accept some general slowness.
95 and 98 however were quite fine if one remembered to do a reinstall ever year.
How do you find the newer versions for speed? I've heard things have improved sense Vista days, but I've honestly never seen a machine running anything newer than Vista.

 

[StudentOfLight]

Thank goodness the SL2 will be coming out soon. Maybe that will provide a little more opportunity for whining.

Canon's gonna nerf that one, too. One card slot, so the pros will be pissed. No 4K, no one really needs that. Selective features missing to protect the higher numbered xxxD bodies. Typical Canon. Will sell like hotcakes. Canon is doomed.

Perhaps they'll exceed your expectations and launch it with no memory card slots (only onboard memory) and only way to get images off is with the connect station.

 

[IglooEater]

Thank goodness the SL2 will be coming out soon. Maybe that will provide a little more opportunity for whining.

Canon's gonna nerf that one, too. One card slot, so the pros will be pissed. No 4K, no one really needs that. Selective features missing to protect the higher numbered xxxD bodies. Typical Canon. Will sell like hotcakes. Canon is doomed.

Perhaps they'll exceed your expectations and launch it with no memory card slots (only onboard memory) and only way to get images off is with the connect station.

Huh. Now there's a concept. That way they may actually sell some connect stations.

 

[hbr]

I just heard from Helen Oster at Adorama. She said the units are in the warehouse, and she's waiting to find out when they start shipping. If Adorama has them, you can be sure B&H do. The only question is when do they ship.

I checked many of the retailers and they all say that Camera is available on 7/27. Adorama did not list a date. I wonder if Canon told them to release the cameras all on the same day. As far as when they will ship is anybody's guess, but I would expect them to start shipping on the 28th or the 31st.

 

[Don Haines]

I just heard from Helen Oster at Adorama. She said the units are in the warehouse, and she's waiting to find out when they start shipping. If Adorama has them, you can be sure B&H do. The only question is when do they ship.

I checked many of the retailers and they all say that Camera is available on 7/27. Adorama did not list a date. I wonder if Canon told them to release the cameras all on the same day. As far as when they will ship is anybody's guess, but I would expect them to start shipping on the 28th or the 31st.

They even have a couple at my local camera store. They are not allowed to sell them until the 27th....

 

[cpsico]

And yet in the same league as the Nikon D5 in the "shadow lift" category. That camera must be bad too..... it's a tool. For some people it will be the perfect creative tool, for others it won't be. It seems to hold up well at ISO 1600-6400 a range I often use on the original 6d. For someone looking for a general purpose affordable full frame camera with great battery life this will be a very good camera. Just not one that is a worthy upgrade to current 6d owners since it's not a substantial upgrade like 5d IV was over the 5d III.

 

[cpsico]

And yet in the same league as the Nikon D5 in the "shadow lift" category. That camera must be bad too..... it's a tool. For some people it will be the perfect creative tool, for others it won't be. It seems to hold up well at ISO 1600-6400 a range I often use on the original 6d. For someone looking for a general purpose affordable full frame camera with great battery life this will be a very good camera. Just not one that is a worthy upgrade to current 6d owners since it's not a substantial upgrade like 5d IV was over the 5d III.

 

[Aglet]

And yet in the same league as the Nikon D5 in the "shadow lift" category. That camera must be bad too..... it's a tool. For some people it will be the perfect creative tool, for others it won't be. It seems to hold up well at ISO 1600-6400 a range I often use on the original 6d. For someone looking for a general purpose affordable full frame camera with great battery life this will be a very good camera. Just not one that is a worthy upgrade to current 6d owners since it's not a substantial upgrade like 5d IV was over the 5d III.

Throw in some stripey FPN effect on the pushed 6D file and... even yuckier.

 

[Aglet]

Hmmm. Wonder why then, despite all of the choices of cameras out there today, Canon still sells way more than the other companies?

MARKETING

they're very good at it and probably spend considerably more on it.

This is absolutely true, Canon is very good at determining what the market wants, and what they are willing to pay. What we want may not be the same as what the worldwide market wants.

However, there is always plenty of room for error. For example, the original M camera was a total bust in the US. Canon ended up dumping their leftover inventory to a reseller, and they sold for under a fraction of retail on eBay.

In the case of the 6D MK II, I guess that 99% of the potential buyers don't care about technical specifications, they want FF at a affordable price, and they trust Canon's reputation. They can't see DR, only specialized tests can measure it, but if 99% can't see a difference, its a moot point.

I think a large number of people have grown accustomed to pleasant colors and contrasty tone curves. Even consumer print shops tend to run their printers with extra contrast applied.
So for that consumer-oriented crowd, and even many of those who've moved beyond that, there seems to still be a preference for the kind of tone curve that ends up crushing dark tonal detail.
But not all of us are in that group.
Summary - most people haven't got a clue what PDR is and many don't even seem to find visible noise objectionable in the final output. Even FPN seems to be overlooked by many.

So that's why I'm agreeing with your last paragraph.

 

[Aglet]

Well if consumption is your gauge than the iphone is the best camera in the world and you can't eat a better burger than mcdonalds.
Also Justin Bieber is a musical genius and we have come full circle...

Judging market wishes by consumption is also faulty in numerous ways, the market doesn't want a buggy version of windows that bsods randomly, but it consumes it in droves. It wants an iphone with a headphone jack and an macbook with usb ports, but buys them without them in record numbers.

If your Windows BSODs randomly, figure out what your issue is. Windows has been quite stable since Windows 2000, unless you have bad hardware or malware.

We, by the way, have not come full circle; you've just repeated your Bieber argument. You really think that just wins it for you, don't you?

The 95s and 98s I worked with were plenty stable. I've heard otherwise regarding XP, and especially Vista.

XP? Seriously? XP was worshipped so hard I still know people who swear by it (and, scarily, run it). Vista had issues, but not BSOD issues. 95 and 98, the old 16-bit (partly) codebase, had issues and gained more over the life of an installation. I have never, ever, had 2000, XP, 7, 8, or 10 (the full 32-bit NT kernel) BSOD without an identifiable hardware or software issue to be resolved. The same things that affect Linux and Macs.

Yup. XP. My parents' and brother's XPs confirmed my decision to go mac. bsod every day. Or more than that. Plus all kinds of other programs freezing. No Vista, never bsod'ed it would freeze before it got there on what was a high performance machine at the time. The thing would just randomly turn off and the screen went black. Again, more than once a day. Also painfully slow. Had to give it to XP, next to Vista it was blazingly fast. I was fortunate enough to hardly ever have to run them.
I never ever had MacOS freeze. ever. A third party app will occasionally stop responding. But my baseline mbp is 8 years old now, so I can accept some general slowness.
95 and 98 however were quite fine if one remembered to do a reinstall ever year.
How do you find the newer versions for speed? I've heard things have improved sense Vista days, but I've honestly never seen a machine running anything newer than Vista.

I've been Mac since '85, starting to drift away as their UI gets more dummed-down.
I used to laugh at how much more often all the windows flavors used to crash and foul up.
NT came along and looked pretty good. Later I built myself an XP box (quite a while back now), carefully selected all the hardware and firmware for compatibility, and one more highly important thing most people who stick their hands into their boxes don't think about, PREVENT ESD (electro-static discharge) DAMAGE.
I still run that old XP machine and it's NEVER crashed. I don't use it for everyday browsing or stuff, it's dedicated to about 10 pieces of software I use on it, still on service pack 2 and it's solid.
XP machines also ran very expensive analytical machines where I work and they were very reliable.

if somebody has regular BSOD issues with XP they likely have underlying hardware-firmware problems or are running some dodgy code.

 

[Aglet]

..if you want a top-quality sensor, and other aspects of the camera are of little importance, then go medium format. Of course, they're more expensive, less portable, slower, have smaller selection of lenses and accessories, but you'll get the best picture.

"Best" simply doesn't exist; what exists is "meets my needs and budget."

At least if you don't mind some of the, IMO, horrendous interface choices some of them have made.
I found the Phase One backs a real PiTA to use.

See, IQ isn't everything!

Totally agree with last sentence. (which is why I went ABC)

That's your choice, and I'll (metaphorically) defend your right to make it. Others are free to make their choices, even if they're different from yours.

If I wanted really top-level IQ then I'd plunk down the high prices AND have to put up with their firmware UI... I don't need it that bad. ;D ABC covers what I need at a far more affordable cost.

I guess then, for the sake of argument, that the pleasant UI and handling of Canon gear matters more to those who use it than the somewhat lagging file quality?.. I know I found Canon stuff intuitive and enjoyable to use, at least up until I got exasperated with the noise issues in post. But I suspect most users never run into that level of file mangling or if they do are also adept at coping with it.
Meanwhile, ease-of-use award goes to Canon, and that is a big selling factor with anything.

 

[Aglet]

Hmmm. Wonder why then, despite all of the choices of cameras out there today, Canon still sells way more than the other companies?

MARKETING

they're very good at it and probably spend considerably more on it.

Ah, the poor customer. Conned into buying a camera they do not need when there are better models out there from different manufacturers that would suit them so much better. Just imagine, they should be leaving the shop with a 4k high DR body that misses the mark on almost every other aspect of usability. Show stupid of them.

PS - I see far more Sony and Nikon adverts than I do Canon adverts.

Hmmm. Wonder why then, despite all of the choices of cameras out there today, Canon still sells way more than the other companies?

MARKETING

they're very good at it and probably spend considerably more on it.

I can't imagine an executive at Sony saying "I won't spend money on a marketing campaign because I'm afraid it might increase our market share and profits." Yeah, right.

Sorry, I'm not buying your argument for Sony. Nikon has not had so much cash lately, but they did when Canon first pulled ahead.

You can't possibly attribute all of it to marketing.

I didn't mention Sony. Or Nikon, or any other brand.

With any mfg operations this big, it's all about the marketing.
Whether direct advertising, indirect implication, shelf-space, or these days even fan-boy sites on the web.

I'm no marketing genius, but I suspect some of you may know even less about this area of business.
It's actually quite a fascinating topic and there's a really good CBC radio show you can listen to where you can get a taste of it.

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/undertheinfluence

the massive taxes i pay help fund this programming, don't waste it!
check it out
be entertained and learn a bit about marketing too.

 

[Khalai]

I've been Mac since '85, starting to drift away as their UI gets more dummed-down.
I used to laugh at how much more often all the windows flavors used to crash and foul up.
NT came along and looked pretty good. Later I built myself an XP box (quite a while back now), carefully selected all the hardware and firmware for compatibility, and one more highly important thing most people who stick their hands into their boxes don't think about, PREVENT ESD (electro-static discharge) DAMAGE.
I still run that old XP machine and it's NEVER crashed. I don't use it for everyday browsing or stuff, it's dedicated to about 10 pieces of software I use on it, still on service pack 2 and it's solid.
XP machines also ran very expensive analytical machines where I work and they were very reliable.

if somebody has regular BSOD issues with XP they likely have underlying hardware-firmware problems or are running some dodgy code.

With older and perhaps current cheapest HW, that may be true. But current quality components are well shielded and you can basically build entire computer on a thick carpet whilst wearing a woolen sweater. Not that you should, but ESD is very rare today. I've built many custom (mainly high-end gaming rigs with custom watercooling loops etc.) over the years and I've never seen a single component damaged by ESD. And I don't use ESP mats or gloves or bracelets...

 

[Mikehit]

I didn't mention Sony. Or Nikon, or any other brand.

With any mfg operations this big, it's all about the marketing.
Whether direct advertising, indirect implication, shelf-space, or these days even fan-boy sites on the web.

I'm no marketing genius, but I suspect some of you may know even less about this area of business.
It's actually quite a fascinating topic and there's a really good CBC radio show you can listen to where you can get a taste of it.

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/undertheinfluence

the massive taxes i pay help fund this programming, don't waste it!
check it out
be entertained and learn a bit about marketing too.

I know something about marketing - I've done it: sales rep, marketing literature, conferences. You can do all the marketing you want but if at the end of the day the product is useless you will fail. Which is why, if you believe the criticism from some about Canon's technology, Canon's continual (and increasing) market dominance is all the more surprising. However, this comment from your earlier post is probably the most sensible one you have made

I guess then, for the sake of argument, that the pleasant UI and handling of Canon gear matters more to those who use it than the somewhat lagging file quality?.. I know I found Canon stuff intuitive and enjoyable to use, at least up until I got exasperated with the noise issues in post. But I suspect most users never run into that level of file mangling or if they do are also adept at coping with it.
Meanwhile, ease-of-use award goes to Canon, and that is a big selling factor with anything.

[my emphasis]