Analyzing where Canon lags behind in the market - Share your thoughts

[Maximilian]

Re: Analyzing where Canon lags behind in the market

...
That might help explain why one of the two companies sells more than the other.

You still didn't get it.

This thread isn't about market success and a versatile product portfolio.
This thread is about the (few) shortcomings, deficits, and other flaws Canon has.
Otherwise we couldn't postulate the doom and fail of Canons product portfolio strategy.
Because this strategy is so wrong that they must fail, as it is missing the needs of the market so much.
At least if I am able to define a one-man market:
me
[/sarc mode]

 

[Loswr]

Re: Analyzing where Canon lags behind in the market

Absolutely Neuro, in sharp contrast to you : ! Little hypochrist maybe?

I entered the thread with a reasoned post presenting an opinion supported by facts and data. You entered the thread with a snarky, profane one-liner response to my post that added nothing to the topic. Your second post here, the single word 'yawn', was equally pithy and even more worthless. Then you complained about the lack of a 'helpful and fruitful discussion culture'. So, the award for hypocrite of the week goes to you. Congratulations.

 

[romanr74]

Re: Analyzing where Canon lags behind in the market

Absolutely Neuro, in sharp contrast to you : ! Little hypochrist maybe?

I entered the thread with a reasoned post presenting an opinion supported by facts and data. You entered the thread with a snarky, profane one-liner response to my post that added nothing to the topic. Your second post here, the single word 'yawn', was equally pithy and even more worthless. Then you complained about the lack of a 'helpful and fruitful discussion culture'. So, the award for hypocrite of the week goes to you. Congratulations.

Good morning, live happy in your world, restating every second day that Canon is selling more than everybody else, thus adding to the respective topic...

 

[Loswr]

Re: Analyzing where Canon lags behind in the market

Absolutely Neuro, in sharp contrast to you : ! Little hypochrist maybe?

I entered the thread with a reasoned post presenting an opinion supported by facts and data. You entered the thread with a snarky, profane one-liner response to my post that added nothing to the topic. Your second post here, the single word 'yawn', was equally pithy and even more worthless. Then you complained about the lack of a 'helpful and fruitful discussion culture'. So, the award for hypocrite of the week goes to you. Congratulations.

Good morning, live happy in your world, restating every second day that Canon is selling more than everybody else, thus adding to the respective topic...

Just for some novelty, you could try presenting some data to support you position. Probably beyond you, though, and admittedly difficult because there really aren't data to support your position (anecdotes aren't data!). So I guess that leaves you with snarky one-liners as your best approach. How sad.

 

[Antono Refa]

Re: Analyzing where Canon lags behind in the market

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That might help explain why one of the two companies sells more than the other.

You still didn't get it.

Indeed you didn't. You should read the whole post again, except for the sentence you've quoted.

This thread isn't about market success and a versatile product portfolio.

My post wasn't about that. It was about the reasons for that success, which stand in contradiction to your criticism.

This thread is about the (few) shortcomings, deficits, and other flaws Canon has.

Actually, it sounds like the thread is all about "Maximilian bitches about Canon products not beating the competition's products in every possible way at any and all times".

 

[romanr74]

Re: Analyzing where Canon lags behind in the market

Absolutely Neuro, in sharp contrast to you : ! Little hypochrist maybe?

I entered the thread with a reasoned post presenting an opinion supported by facts and data. You entered the thread with a snarky, profane one-liner response to my post that added nothing to the topic. Your second post here, the single word 'yawn', was equally pithy and even more worthless. Then you complained about the lack of a 'helpful and fruitful discussion culture'. So, the award for hypocrite of the week goes to you. Congratulations.

Good morning, live happy in your world, restating every second day that Canon is selling more than everybody else, thus adding to the respective topic...

Just for some novelty, you could try presenting some data to support you position. Probably beyond you, though, and admittedly difficult because there really aren't data to support your position (anecdotes aren't data!). So I guess that leaves you with snarky one-liners as your best approach. How sad.

You can continue to be as insulting and mean as you want Neuro if it makes you feel better. That however doesn't make Amazon sales ranks relevant data to discuss the (individual) perception of technical aspects of whatsoever product.

 

[Loswr]

Re: Analyzing where Canon lags behind in the market

You can continue to be as insulting and mean as you want Neuro if it makes you feel better. That however doesn't make Amazon sales ranks relevant data to discuss the (individual) perception of technical aspects of whatsoever product.

Oh, and here I read the topic title as, "Analyzing where Canon lags behind in the market."

BTW, who started with the insults? Yeah, that's what I thought. Still no data to share? Sad.

 

[Maximilian]

Re: Analyzing where Canon lags behind in the market

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Actually, it sounds like the thread is all about "Maximilian bitches about Canon products not beating the competition's products in every possible way at any and all times".

Antono, if your post was meant in the same - sarcastic - way as mine about the others complaining about Canon I must admit that I didn't get your humor. Sorry. :-[

If you didn't get mine (humor), I must apologize. Excuse me!

 

[romanr74]

Re: Analyzing where Canon lags behind in the market

You can continue to be as insulting and mean as you want Neuro if it makes you feel better. That however doesn't make Amazon sales ranks relevant data to discuss the (individual) perception of technical aspects of whatsoever product.

Oh, and here I read the topic title as, "Analyzing where Canon lags behind in the market."

BTW, who started with the insults? Yeah, that's what I thought. Still no data to share? Sad.

We had the topic title discussion yesterday. You must have missed that. No problem...

I'm bored, you don't make progress in this discussion, your in a loop, i didn't expect that from you, i was wrong

I'm gone...

 

[Loswr]

Re: Analyzing where Canon lags behind in the market

I'm gone...

In terms of meaningful contributions, you were never here.

 

[Antono Refa]

Re: Analyzing where Canon lags behind in the market

...
Actually, it sounds like the thread is all about "Maximilian bitches about Canon products not beating the competition's products in every possible way at any and all times".

Antono, if your post was meant in the same - sarcastic - way as mine about the others complaining about Canon I must admit that I didn't get your humor. Sorry. :-[

If you didn't get mine (humor), I must apologize. Excuse me!

I apologize for hurting your feeling.

To clarify my point:

1. Of course Canon has some shortcomings, deficits, and other flaws. Question is why bother discussing those.

2. Those shortcomings, deficits, etc must be taken in context.

Yes, Canon lags behind Nikon's excellent 58mm f/1.4g. But as one can buy Sigma's or Zeiss' excellent 50mm f/1.4 lenses, its not as bad as Nikon lagging behind some Canon lenses for which there is no F mount equivalent.

To carry things on: if Nikon (or any other 3rd party manufacturer making F mount lenses) didn't bother making a 1-5x macro lens for >15 years, its probably because there's little profit in it. So Nikon lags behind, and loses some sales to Canon.

Whats the point of pointing it out? People who want a 5X macro lens wouldn't understand their only option is a Canon body & MP-E 65mm lens unless its discussed in a CR forum thread? Nikon suddenly change its mind and make one?

 

[d]

Where does Canon fall behind the competition?

Can we make a list of that, that's completely objective and is neither fanboyish nor Sony-is-king-ish?

...

Only where the current Canon models are inferior to an existing competitor.

I'll start with the very low end failure:

-Canon's cheapest DSLR is very poorly featured compared to Nikon's and Sony's and practically everything else.

It's the 1300D. Nikon makes a MUCH more compelling camera to draw the first SLR buyer. Their Nikon D3400 has:

-24mp class leading sensor vs the old 550D 18mp sensor with immensely lower image quality.

...

1- So Canon's first fail is in their first Body, the T6/1300D.

Bold, underlined emphasis mine.

OP claims to want a "completely objective" non "fanboyish" discussion, yet litters the post with words like "inferior" and "failure". Seems their grasp of the meaning of 'objectivity' could be a little "inferior", by their "failure" to properly quantify Canon's so-called deficiencies.

Thanks for contributing such a useful thread, Josh...oh, you don't appear to be participating anymore, I wonder why?

 

[Maximilian]

Re: Analyzing where Canon lags behind in the market

...
Actually, it sounds like the thread is all about "Maximilian bitches about Canon products not beating the competition's products in every possible way at any and all times".

Antono, if your post was meant in the same - sarcastic - way as mine about the others complaining about Canon I must admit that I didn't get your humor. Sorry. :-[

If you didn't get mine (humor), I must apologize. Excuse me!

I apologize for hurting your feeling.

Thank you for your answer and luckily no feelings were hurt and no apologize needed.
I was just a bit confused and didn't know, how to understand your answer.

To clarify my point:
...

And to clarify my point:

I'm almost 100% with you! (as I was before, as well)

I think with my first post here (reply #15) I showed my opinion. In brief:

• The OPs comparison on entry level bodies was lacking objectivity
• he misses the portfolio of good entry level lenses like the 50STM and the 10-18STM
• Canon can improve in some points but the competition as well in others

After that this thread began to turn into what it is now, leaving me shaking my head and making some sarcastic posts to make it more bearable. My fault was to use your serious reply #80 and to think it was obvious, that I didn't meant to attack your point of view but to support it in an ironic way.

I hope that made it clear in the end.

 

[addola]

You should worry, fanboy or not, about Canon. Canon sells! They have a larger market share in the photo industry. That's true, But...

Do you know who else had a large market share in their corresponding sector? Nokia. Nokia had the lion's share of the mobile phone market for years. Where's Nokia now?

It's because as you work hard, others are working hard, too. Personally, I have more interest in having a market full of options, innovations & competition.

We should have a legitimate worry about Canon. I think, like many others do, that Canon worry too much about lower end models cannibalizing their higher-end model. That's why they seem to sort of "cripple" their lower end cameras. Here's are my random thought:

Updating Camera & Meaningful, Useful Specs
SD Cards Slots
Canon is yet to update the 6D, which has only one SD slot (compared to two slots in Nikon's FF). Also Nikon D7000's have dual slots. Dual SDs are useful in critical shoots like weddings.
Flash Sync Speed
My Nikon FE2 had 1/250. My 6D has 1/180.

Sensor Technology?
According to DxOMark, Canon sensors are not as good as Sony-made sensor that are used in Nikon, Sony & Pentax cameras. Canon sensor typically have lower dynamic range at base (and lower) ISO, but kind of higher (if slightly) at higher ISO.
Nikon makes sensor that has weak DR at low ISO, but better DR at higher ISO (like in the Nikon D5)
Personally : I do not care too much about this. I can compensate for the lower DR at base ISO by bracketing my shots if the scene have a challenging DR (highlights & shadows all over the place)

Lenses
Side Note : Canon EF mount is larger in diameter, allowing for larger aperture than Sony & Nikon. I heard Canon's 1.2 lenses can not go to 1.2 when adapted to Sony E-Mount.

Canon is not lagging here. I totally disagree! I love Nikon, but their popular zooms (24-70 & 70-200) lag behind Canon & Tamron’s offering.
Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 & 50mm f/1.2L are relatively old. Canon’s 50mm f/1.8 STM is newer, and have slightly better resolution than Nikon’s newer 50mm f/1.8G

Similarly with the 85/1.8 & 85L. They are relatively old. Nikon did a great job with their 85mm f/1.8G (introduced in 2012) which is better than Canon 85/1.8 (introduced in 1992, 20 years older)

Use the 35L II as a baseline for what newer L primes from Canon could be. Also compare the older 35L with Nikon's much newer 35mm f/1.4.

I would bet that an updated 85L would beat the Otus.

Video
Some people complain about video codecs being inefficient, and the ability to shoot 4K at models like 80D. But what Nikon camera shoots 4K other than the D5?

Also lower end, APS-C Nikon cameras do 1080/60p. So they're competing there!

 

[Loswr]

You should worry, fanboy or not, about Canon. Canon sells! They have a larger market share in the photo industry. That's true, But...

Do you know who else had a large market share in their corresponding sector? Nokia. Nokia had the lion's share of the mobile phone market for years. Where's Nokia now?

Thanks, I knew it was just a matter of time before Nokia was brought into the discussion. What paradigm shift do you see hitting the ILC market? Because that's the crux of the analogy. Smartphones killed Nokia (and the compact camera market), not a slightly different flip phone. Absent a paradigm shift, Nokia is irrelevant as an analogy.

 

[takesome1]

You should worry, fanboy or not, about Canon. Canon sells! They have a larger market share in the photo industry. That's true, But...

Do you know who else had a large market share in their corresponding sector? Nokia. Nokia had the lion's share of the mobile phone market for years. Where's Nokia now?

Thanks, I knew it was just a matter of time before Nokia was brought into the discussion. What paradigm shift do you see hitting the ILC market? Because that's the crux of the analogy. Smartphones killed Nokia (and the compact camera market), not a slightly different flip phone. Absent a paradigm shift, Nokia is irrelevant as an analogy.

Not really, the name of the thread is "Analyzing where Canon lags behind in the market"

Nokia's failure in the phone business was due to its inability to adapt and offer a product to match the iPhone and Android. In much the same way this has already happened to Canon and Nikon, as you say "Smartphones killed Nokia (and the compact camera market)". Canon didn't adapt and smartphones are taking over as the compact camera of today.

But wait, now the iPhone 7 has improved low light capabilities and is advertised as shooting 4K video. Obviously this is no threat to the bodies we buy, we buy 1Dx and 5Dxxx and are looking for the highest of quality. But how about the entry level DSLR? A few years ago people who wanted a quality picture of grandkids and family they went to the DSLR. But the same individual today might be inclined to go to an iPhone.

 

[Baba_HT]

Canon die-hard to the bone. Will never leave home without my 5dmk3 8)

 

[Mikehit]

But wait, now the iPhone 7 has improved low light capabilities and is advertised as shooting 4K video. Obviously this is no threat to the bodies we buy, we buy 1Dx and 5Dxxx and are looking for the highest of quality. But how about the entry level DSLR? A few years ago people who wanted a quality picture of grandkids and family they went to the DSLR. But the same individual today might be inclined to go to an iPhone.

I'm still not sure that analogy holds.
Up to the 1990s anyone who only had a passing interest in photography had no camera at all. In the 2000s the cost of cameras plummeted and many people bought them because they could, even though the camera stayed at home most of the time after the novelty wore off because it was inconvenient to lug them around everywhere - it was this market that led to the rapid inflation in camera ownership. Then came the smartphone and the smartphone filled the niche they wanted - so that in the 1990s I referred to group have gone from no camera to smartphones and the last 15 years or so has been almost an artificial blip forced by lack of choice.
Many of the people who would have owned cameras in the 1990s have today also embraced the iphone and they use it when they would otherwise not bother carrying a camera anyway and this is no threat to Canon in the main because they are using something that Canon cannot compete against - and nor does mirrorless of any description.

So IMO it is a distraction to look on that market as an indicator as to whether Canon (or any other brand) is doing the right thing within their market sector.

 

[Loswr]

But wait, now the iPhone 7 has improved low light capabilities and is advertised as shooting 4K video. Obviously this is no threat to the bodies we buy, we buy 1Dx and 5Dxxx and are looking for the highest of quality. But how about the entry level DSLR? A few years ago people who wanted a quality picture of grandkids and family they went to the DSLR. But the same individual today might be inclined to go to an iPhone.

I'm still not sure that analogy holds.

It doesn't. Smartphones are an extrinsic factor, affecting the ILC market as a whole but not the rankings within it, and the latter is the topic at hand.

 

[Josh Denver]

Thanks for contributing such a useful thread, Josh...oh, you don't appear to be participating anymore, I wonder why?

I am not participating till page 7 here because I was out shooting a documentary film that has to contain a TV commercial for one of the country's (UAE) largest universities.

And imagine I am videographer but was not shooting on A7s or NX1 or GH4?! Guess what I am shooting on? Yes right. Canon DSLRs.

A 5DIII for wides (no moire/aliasing) a 6D for interviews (shallow DOF), a 60D and 700d for B-roll and an 1100D for gorgeous 12mp 4.5K timelapse. Why when I have the budget? Itls not a budget issue. It's simply because they deliver much better colour than the other cameras which I've professionally shot with them all.

Nothing comes close to Canon Picture styles and AWB in making a filmic video. Nothing. These PSs were remarkably designed and tweaked. Nikon is closest or even better (esp. for non skin shots) but Just a pain to use for video (fiddly) but lovely colour.

Anyway regardless of what I doing / using, when I scrolled through the replies and reactions, I strongly believe most posters did not understand at all the meaning and purpose of the thread, maybe my fault, and it turned into a fan war. Some people did understand the thread and made great contributions and feedback if I were a Canon Researcher.

So what IS the meaning of the thread?

Make a comprehensive list, an objective list of every bit of camera experience that another company has over Canon.

Every little bit. From features to specs to usability to IQ to size to colour science to speed to ANYTHING good ANOTHER camera has that Canon does not.

Is that clear enough now?

This list will be objective no matter what because we know the items it's either there or not.

What this thread isn't for: Listing anything Canon does better than the competition.

That would be quite a huge list!! A pointless one. But would make users happier than this I believe, psychologically.

This isn't MY list, I am asking you to contribute and if we agree that one isn't fair like the entry level model being outrun by Nikons entry level due to price then we'll scratch off the point off the list. What's the matter?

It might have seemed as a hate thread but I think you can understand now what contributions I want in the thread. Which is:

1- Things others company's are currently doing better than Canon (currently = not a Canon wish thread)

2- Take it with good sport. Canon does not make cameras that are flawless compared to rivals.

3- The thread is made because we can correct and discuss if someone's point is true or not. Participation from a large crowd,

4- Simply just make YOUR list of exactly where you know Canon lags/doesn'thave/isoutrun/fails/isslow behind the CURRENT offered camera technology.

I hope it's clear now,

Josh,