Any chance for a 7D Mark 'II+'?

[tron]

On that I agree 100%. By the way do you own a 7D2? What are your thoughts? (Slightly off topic but still productive discussion)...

I only shoot with my 5D3 -- I'm sure others here will chime in on how the 7D2 is performing in their hands, though.

- A

I bought a 7DII, when I began to shoot a lot of sports and only had a 5DIII. Shot for about a year with the 7DII for sports and found it very capable, although I feel that 6400 is pretty much the upper limit and even then, you need to be tolerant of some noise. I do feel though that the noise is much less annoying than the original 7D. The difference in my opinion is that the 7DII noise is much more similar to traditional film grain, while the original 7D had a more "static-y" look to its noise.

I have since traded the 5DIII for a 1DX II and use that almost exclusively when shooting sports. However, I have to admit that when I look back on some of the images I shot with the 7DII and compare them to what I get with the 1DX II, the actual quality difference isn't that great.

If I'm shooting birds in flight for myself, I think I prefer the 7DII, because of the reach. But, if the light is less than ideal, I'm inclined to use the 1DX II because it seems to have better noise control at higher ISOs.

Same here: I shoot birds with 7D2 and when light gets worse I switch to 5D4.

 

[reef58]

Not interested in upgrading for a touchscreen and wifi. Would upgrade immediately for a less noisy sensor.

+1

That upgrade is now available, it's called the 5DIV.

Well except for the 1.6x crop and 3 less frames per second.

 

[Aussie shooter]

Is the difference in sensor performance between a 7d2 and a Nikon D500 only around 1/3 of a stop as I have read? If so just how likely is it that canon would manage to exceed that in the next iteration in the 7d lineup?

 

[Don Haines]

Is the difference in sensor performance between a 7d2 and a Nikon D500 only around 1/3 of a stop as I have read? If so just how likely is it that canon would manage to exceed that in the next iteration in the 7d lineup?

If that.....

The problem is physics.... There are only so many photons hitting the sensor. The efficiency of the sensor to turn those photons into electrons (QE or Quantum Efficiency) is very close between most new sensors and all of them are starting to approach the same level. There is convergence.

I think we are getting to the point where your choice of lens matters more than your choice of camera....

 

[Aussie shooter]

Is the difference in sensor performance between a 7d2 and a Nikon D500 only around 1/3 of a stop as I have read? If so just how likely is it that canon would manage to exceed that in the next iteration in the 7d lineup?

If that.....

The problem is physics.... There are only so many photons hitting the sensor. The efficiency of the sensor to turn those photons into electrons (QE or Quantum Efficiency) is very close between most new sensors and all of them are starting to approach the same level. There is convergence.

I think we are getting to the point where your choice of lens matters more than your choice of camera....

I am thinking the same. I am just about to get a 7d2 and am not particularly worried that I won't be getting the 3 when it comes out. I am sure the added f8 points will be great and I have little doubt it will get a touch screen that tilts? but I just can't see any massive improvement in IQ coming. And as I am currently shooting wildlife with a 700d I am fairly positive I won't have any complaints about the AF performance ;D

 

[DaveGershon]

I had the 7D Mark II for shooting sports. It worked great in daylight. It had too much noise in low light when shooting High School football. The AF did not work well in low light either. I really liked the "extra reach". I moved to a 1Dx MK II. I would consider a improved 7DMkII+, if Canon went to the new sensor like the 80D has along with better low light AF. I could push the ISO a bit further.

 

[scyrene]

Not interested in upgrading for a touchscreen and wifi. Would upgrade immediately for a less noisy sensor.

+1

That upgrade is now available, it's called the 5DIV.

Well except for the 1.6x crop and 3 less frames per second.

Some of the crop is mitigated by the higher MP in the 5D4, though not all.

 

[ksgal]

I don't find 6400 iso to be my limit, for small prints or web work. 12,800 is fine.
Processed in LR 5.7

But I would take a new sensor in a heartbeat. Great camera.

Canon EOS 7D Mark II | Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L USM @125mm | 1/640 | f/3.2 | ISO 12800

 

[reef58]

Not interested in upgrading for a touchscreen and wifi. Would upgrade immediately for a less noisy sensor.

+1

That upgrade is now available, it's called the 5DIV.

I had a brain freeze on that response anyway. I was asking for a 1dx with 35mp and 10fps not a 7d3 or 2.5

Well except for the 1.6x crop and 3 less frames per second.

Some of the crop is mitigated by the higher MP in the 5D4, though not all.

 

[K]

Canon should not stick to these 3-4 year update intervals so strictly.

The 7DII is a prime example. Since its release, Canon has significantly updated their sensor technology with on-chip ADC which makes a big difference.

7D2 only needs the following, simple and very reasonable updates --

1. Updated Sensor
2. Touch Screen
3. Built in Wifi

UHS-II card compatibility would be nice, but not necessary. Beyond that, this camera is stacked with high performance features.

If they can do the above AND add just 0.5 or 1fps to make it 11fps (to be able to top Nikon D500 on specs, since FPS on these IS THE main point) ...then they could label it the 7D Mark III easily. It would be a respectable update, without much else.


2018 is probably when the 7D3 will happen. Shortly after, an updated or unified 5DSR2.

 

[tron]

Canon should not stick to these 3-4 year update intervals so strictly.

The 7DII is a prime example. Since its release, Canon has significantly updated their sensor technology with on-chip ADC which makes a big difference.

7D2 only needs the following, simple and very reasonable updates --

1. Updated Sensor
2. Touch Screen
3. Built in Wifi

UHS-II card compatibility would be nice, but not necessary. Beyond that, this camera is stacked with high performance features.

If they can do the above AND add just 0.5 or 1fps to make it 11fps (to be able to top Nikon D500 on specs, since FPS on these IS THE main point) ...then they could label it the 7D Mark III easily. It would be a respectable update, without much else.


2018 is probably when the 7D3 will happen. Shortly after, an updated or unified 5DSR2.

+1

 

[Aussie shooter]

Late 2018 would be perfect as I just picked up the mk2 and won't be looking for an upgrade now untill early 2019. Bloody awesome camera it is. Going from a 700d to the 7dmk2 is a major change.

 

[Mikehit]

Canon should not stick to these 3-4 year update intervals so strictly.

The 7DII is a prime example. Since its release, Canon has significantly updated their sensor technology with on-chip ADC which makes a big difference.

7D2 only needs the following, simple and very reasonable updates --

1. Updated Sensor
2. Touch Screen
3. Built in Wifi

UHS-II card compatibility would be nice, but not necessary. Beyond that, this camera is stacked with high performance features.

If they can do the above AND add just 0.5 or 1fps to make it 11fps (to be able to top Nikon D500 on specs, since FPS on these IS THE main point) ...then they could label it the 7D Mark III easily. It would be a respectable update, without much else.


2018 is probably when the 7D3 will happen. Shortly after, an updated or unified 5DSR2.

What do you mean by 'so strictly'?
Do you rally think that Canon execs sit there thinking 'we've got a great new camera but we can't release it for another year because our calendar says otherwise'?

I am sure they could put a new sensor in the 7DII right now but the question is whether the newer sensor is sufficiently improved to warrant a new model. Rumour has it that the 7D2 had a prolonged gestation because they decided to put a newer AF in there and wanted to make sure it worked - otherwise it would have been released a year earlier.
Canon has always been cautious this way in only introducing a model that gives real-world improvements. With the 5DIII, the 5DIV and the 1Dx2, they have n release been labelled as 'evolutoin rather than evolution, and technologically that has been correct. But I think it is significant that when professionals get their hands on them, they appreciate not the leap forwards but the improvements on the total package as a real move forward, especially the ergonomics. This is why Canon do a lot of research along the lines of 'what would make your life better' and not 'what specification would impress you in a press release'.

You only need see the comments when Sony released 2 models with in 12months with hacked off early adopters saying the new model solved the problems that the first one should not have had in the first place. This actually caused a problem down the line with people not buying until they were confident the new model had no glitches that a newer model would fix.

So please tell me, what difference does 10.5 or 11 fps make compared to 10fps in the real world? That really does smack of spec-obsessed bragging.

 

[Don Haines]

Canon should not stick to these 3-4 year update intervals so strictly.

The 7DII is a prime example. Since its release, Canon has significantly updated their sensor technology with on-chip ADC which makes a big difference.

7D2 only needs the following, simple and very reasonable updates --

1. Updated Sensor
2. Touch Screen
3. Built in Wifi

UHS-II card compatibility would be nice, but not necessary. Beyond that, this camera is stacked with high performance features.

If they can do the above AND add just 0.5 or 1fps to make it 11fps (to be able to top Nikon D500 on specs, since FPS on these IS THE main point) ...then they could label it the 7D Mark III easily. It would be a respectable update, without much else.


2018 is probably when the 7D3 will happen. Shortly after, an updated or unified 5DSR2.

First point, it will be UHS-II because for the last few years nobody has designed for UHS-I because the modules are end of lifespan and are not being produced any more.....

Second point - touch screen..... I was amazed that the 7D2 did not have it nor did it have WiFi.... but at the time of the development cycle when the decision was made to lock down the hardware it obviously made good sense or they would have included it. Where we stand now, Touchscreens and WiFi interfaces are old hat.... the user interface software is written and runs reliably on a lot of different models, so including it on a 7D3 is probably a done deal....

Third point - updated sensor.... When the decision in the development cycle is made to lock the hardware design, Canon will use the best possible tech in the appropriate price range.... the point that many of us forget is that the development cycle of a camera is approximately 5 years long.... Work on the 7D3 would have started before the 7D2 was released. At some point, most likely 2 years before release date, the hardware design will be locked and contracts will start to go out to various companies to start producing the various components, the electronics, the camera body, printing manuals, etc etc.... by the time any camera (Canon, Nikon, Sony, etc) reaches the market it is obsolete.

And the big point.... Canon is really good at surprising us. It is possible that the 7D3 might be a mirrorless monster (EF-S mount and same size) that does things like face recognition and tracking and with a 60FPS burst mode and multi-image averaging... Who knows? Not me, but the speculation sure is fun.....

 

[Hector1970]

What it needs most is a new sensor. The present one isn't bad, and can give great results. But, a crop from the 5DS R is better in terms of sharpness and noise. Personally, I would not upgrade until they put in a new sensor without a low-pass filter. The filter is too aggressive on these pixel dense sensors, far more so than on the FF 5DIV and 5DIII.

I find the sensor the worst thing about it. I find the pixels a bit mushy. It's poor at higher ISO and I use it a lot for sport at 1/500 sec so it's not at base ISO.
I think it's a cut down version of the 5DSR sensor. For me it too is poor at higher ISO.
The 5DIV has much more pleasing high ISO characteristics.
On the 7DIi I find the frame rate great and the focus is very clear and sharp through the eyepiece.
I find the resultant file to be short on what I expect.

 

[Mikehit]

I find the resultant file to be short on what I expect.

It depends what you mean by 'expect'. If you expect 5D image quality for the price of the 7D2 you are living in fantasy land.
The 7D2 was intended to be a top-of-the-range APS-C camera in much the same way as the 1Dx is the top of the FF range- it is a wildlife/action camera for those who can't afford the 1Dx.
And that is the compromise you choose when you go for the 7D line.

 

[Aussie shooter]

The latest and greatest Nikon version of an APS-C sports DSLR has only achieved minor image quality improvement over the 7D2 so the 7d3 is unlikely to go far over that at best. I personally find it pretty damn good for the most part. ISO 1600 is pretty good as long as you don't have to crop too much. Get closer, fill the frame and you are good to go

 

[ahsanford]

The latest and greatest Nikon version of an APS-C sports DSLR has only achieved minor image quality improvement over the 7D2 so the 7d3 is unlikely to go far over that at best. I personally find it pretty damn good for the most part. ISO 1600 is pretty good as long as you don't have to crop too much. Get closer, fill the frame and you are good to go

Calls for a faster 7D3 or 7D2+ are feature-set envy to me, nothing more. Since the 7D2 came out, Canon switched to on chip ADC and Nikon offered a more modern rival in the D500.

People hate long cycle times because that's now 5 years of new tech that Canon will put out that the 7D camp cannot enjoy. That's what's fueling this.

But people should consider:

• The 7D was on the market ~ 5 years before the 7D2 came out.
  
  
• Canon does not accelerate product line refreshes over its prior cycle. See the two charts below -- I believe Northlight tracks announcements and Wikipedia tracks release dates, but neither show a given product line accelerating over prior models.
  
  
• Canon is still the market leader (broadly -- SLR-wise).

Put those three statements together, and I think unless Canon has internal information showing the D500 (or possibly a6500) is cleaning Canon's clock in the enthusiast sports/wildlife market (not reviews or sensor scores but sales), they will stick to what they do and we will be waiting a while for the 7D3.

- A

 

[zim]

That's an interesting point about not accelerating product line refreshes but the 7d was first of its line and wasn't it's sale life extended for at least a year though, I can't remember the reason ? So the next version could be released on the original cycle bringing the date back to plan, no?

 

[ahsanford]

That's an interesting point about not accelerating product line refreshes but the 7d was first of its line and wasn't it's sale life extended for at least a year though, I can't remember the reason ? So the next version could be released on the original cycle bringing the date back to plan, no?

That's the $64,000 question, yes. They refreshed the 7D with a fairly extensive firmware update and extended its lifespan.

Guess what they just did with the 7D2? Gave it a firmware update and unlocked new functionality. Granted, the WiFi SD card interface is no where near what they did for the 7D1 years ago, but one might argue Canon had a 5 year journey in mind for the 7D1 all along and they were just executing to plan, and they are repeating that successful business model with the 7D2.

Until I see evidence that the now awakened pro APS-C segment for Nikon is kicking butt sales-wise, why should Canon cut short the return on investment for all its 7D2 tooling, production methods, QC, marketing, etc.? Because their users want something new? Since when has Canon's pipeline ever been pushed around by its customers?

- A