AutoISO messed up.... AGAIN? arrrrrrr it's just not that difficult

[AvTvM]

In other words...don't go away mad, just go away.

negative. Hate to disappoint you, but as long as I buy and use Canon gear to capture my photos I feel fully entitled to whack them over the head when they deliver sub-par photographic tools.

Post-processing EC instead of ISO change would be fine if Canon sensors had lower read noise & were closer to the theoretical 'ISO-less' camera... but my tests with my 5D Mark III show that even ISO 6400 is better than ISO 1600 + 2stops in post. Haven't seen similar tests with the D800 yet but my guess is that it stands up better to EC in PP than the Canon due to its lower read noise.

So I would say it behooves Canon even more to implement better Auto ISO, since optimizing ISO for a shot is more important on Canon than it is for Nikon, given the higher read noise on Canon sensors.

+1 ... exactly!

I would be inclined to fix the shutter speed at the 1/focal length and then shoot all night like that - at least you would avoid motion blur issues.

as a matter of fact, this is exactly what a Nikon D800/D4 lets you do (in A and P modes, points #3 and #4 from my list) ... fully automatically, based on the focal length of the lens attached or the focal length a zoom lens is set to. And if a situation demands somewhat faster shutter times (than 1/focal length) or the action is slow enough to allow somewhat slower shutter times, just dial in "faster or slower" in Auto-ISO sensitivity control. As a matter of fact, Nikon users also had to whack Nikon over the head for years until they finally got a truly functional Auto-ISO model ... ;-)

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/1690347434/first-impressions-using-the-nikon-d800
"The D800's automatic ISO mode is inherited from the D4 and is improved over the same mode in earlier Nikon DSLRs. Previously, auto ISO customization was minimal, and consisted simply of an option to set the maximum ISO and minimum shutter speed when the camera was used in auto ISO mode. The currently-set ISO counted as the minimum ISO sensitivity (and in fact still does). This system was fine for shooting with a fixed focal length lens, but less useful with zoom lenses, where a 'safe' minimum shutter speed at either end of the focal range might be several stops apart.

In the D4 and D800, Nikon has (at long last) added an 'Auto' option to the minimum shutter speed options, which allows the camera to automatically set the minimum shutter speed based on its knowledge of the focal length that you're working at. This response can be biased in 5 steps, from 'slow' to 'fast' depending on whether you'd like the camera to err on the side of slower or faster shutter speeds. A small change but one that takes Auto ISO a little closer to being the 'set and forget' function that it should have been long ago."

The Auto-ISO implementation in the D800/D4 really is a world apart from Canon's clumsy approach - especially as far as the 5D3 goes.

Good thing is, Canon can easlily correct the situation any day with just a simple firmware update. ALl we need to do is to demand that update vigorously and might as well get it. Similar to what the video guys (Planet5D et al.) achieved for the 5D 2 after whacking Canon over the head for a year or so.

 

[briansquibb]

as a matter of fact, this is exactly what a Nikon D800/D4 lets you do (in A and P modes, points #3 and #4 from my list) ... fully automatically, based on the focal length of the lens attached or the focal length a zoom lens is set to.

Yawn .... series 1 already does this in P mode ....

But then how many people using these pro level cameras use P mode on a regular basis

 

[PhilDrinkwater]

Good thing is, Canon can easlily correct the situation any day with just a simple firmware update. ALl we need to do is to demand that update vigorously and might as well get it. Similar to what the video guys (Planet5D et al.) achieved for the 5D 2 after whacking Canon over the head for a year or so.

I've sent my feedback in via a Canon UK rep and I agree with all who say that it's wrong - it clearly is wrong. If you have an auto mode (which auto ISO is) you need EC to correct for the fact that your camera will meter to average grey. Not providing it is just wrong. In fact, I sent them the same feedback about the 5d2 but they clearly didn't listen

I've said it in another thread, but I honestly believe Canon need to start listening to actual photographers more...

I've worked in development for a long time and it's like when developers write a massive amount of code to allow a feature to be implemented, but then don't spend the last 10% making the feature effective to use. Canon seem to be missing "feature designers" somehow...

All that said, I think the 5d3 is a great camera. I just think they are not putting enough effort into finishing off the little bits

(of course this isn't an issue if you'll never use auto ISO).

 

[briansquibb]

I've sent my feedback in via a Canon UK rep and I agree with all who say that it's wrong - it clearly is wrong. If you have an auto mode (which auto ISO is) you need EC to correct for the fact that your camera will meter to average grey. Not providing it is just wrong. In fact, I sent them the same feedback about the 5d2 but they clearly didn't listen

This can be done with series 1

(of course this isn't an issue if you'll never use auto ISO).

AutoISO part of my is my default mode - complete with ec available

: : I wonder ow many times I will have to say this ... : :

 

[PhilDrinkwater]

This can be done with series 1

Series 1?

 

[briansquibb]

This can be done with series 1

Series 1?

1D4/1DX

 

[PhilDrinkwater]

Ahh! I know those a 1 series not series 1

I guess my point is that I'm not buying one of those...

 

[AvTvM]

while this thread is about Auto-ISO on the Canon 5D3 ... and it's shortcomings, unfortunately Briansquibb keeps talking of his 1D ... and also seems to be unwilling or unable ? to understand the Nikon D800/D4 Auto-ISO implementation and why it is superior to any current Canon DSLR, including "the 1 series".

 

[briansquibb]

Ahh! I know those a 1 series not series 1

I guess my point is that I'm not buying one of those...

The problem in this thread is that all Canon bodies are being stated as not having P mode with auto iso and fine shutter speed adjustment nor AV/manual mode with ec. The 1D4 has this as will the 1DX. The eroneous facts are then being used to slate Canon and praise Nikon which have the function with the D800 and the D4

I am sure we could find functionality that is in the Canon but not in the Nikon if we were in to trolling

 

[bloodstupid]

Ahh! I know those a 1 series not series 1

I guess my point is that I'm not buying one of those...

The problem in this thread is that all Canon bodies are being stated as not having P mode with auto iso and fine shutter speed adjustment nor AV/manual mode with ec. The 1D4 has this as will the 1DX. The eroneous facts are then being used to slate Canon and praise Nikon which have the function with the D800 and the D4

I am sure we could find functionality that is in the Canon but not in the Nikon if we were in to trolling

Actually this thread is about the 5D MIII, nothing else.

 

[briansquibb]

Ahh! I know those a 1 series not series 1

I guess my point is that I'm not buying one of those...

The problem in this thread is that all Canon bodies are being stated as not having P mode with auto iso and fine shutter speed adjustment nor AV/manual mode with ec. The 1D4 has this as will the 1DX. The eroneous facts are then being used to slate Canon and praise Nikon which have the function with the D800 and the D4

I am sure we could find functionality that is in the Canon but not in the Nikon if we were in to trolling

Actually this thread is about the 5D MIII, nothing else.

You are correct in that was how it started - however it widened into all Canon bodies. I dont have a 5DIII but looking through the user manual it is obvious that Canon have gone part way to the requirements for the 5DIII - but not as far as the 1 series.

For example in P mode you can use auto iso, ec and fine adjust the shutter speed. M mode + ec doesn't seem possible

 

[AvTvM]

... looking through the user manual it is obvious that Canon have gone part way to the requirements for the 5DIII - but not as far as the 1 series.
For example in P mode you can use auto iso, ec and fine adjust the shutter speed. M mode + ec doesn't seem possible

correct ... BUT "fine adjustment" of shutter speed in mode "P" and Auto-ISO on a Canon 5D3 (and all others) is done "manually" by user turning the front wheel to select a different aperture/shutter time combination. It is not possible to select a slower shutter speed than the underlying Canon "program line" minimum shutter speed ... which seems to be 1/focal length.

In Nikon's D800/D4 Auto-ISO implementation, users can directly influence the "progam line" in Auto-ISO-sensitivity control to have the cam use faster or slower minimum shutter speeds than 1/focal length. That way it is also possible to use (somewhat) slower shutters speeds than 1/focal length in Auto-ISO and "P", "A"(v) modes.

I am not aware of a possibility for Canon users to modify the "program line" on 5D 3 or other current Canon EOS models including 1 series to achieve the same. Interestingly, Canon does no longer include program-line charts in the manuals for the "newer" DSLRs with Auto-ISO - so we don't know exactly, how these cameras respond and adjust the 3 variables [aperture, time, sensor amplification] under various lighting situations.

Also, the Nikon Auto-ISO implementation works the same way in "P" and "A" mode, if minimum shutter speed is set to "Auto". I am not sure, whether Canon's "program line" also works the same way in "Av" mode and in "P" mode [Program-AE]


btw: even in the Nikon D800/D4 Auto-ISO implementation the cam does not automatically sense, whether IS [VR] is available in the lens and switched ON and then modify the "default" minimum shutter speed to "slower". Nikon aparently decided to leave any correction of the 1/focal length minimum shutter speed up to the user and his assessment what the situation requires to avoid shake and motion blur on moving subjects.

Furthermore, even in Nikon's latest and more advanced implementation users cannot set rules/parameters to fully customize camera's behaviour in Auto-ISO.

All of these shortcomings just demonstrate how awfully slow camera manufacturers are in changing from the old film-based auto-exposure model with fixed ISO and only 2 variables (shutter speed and aperture) to the digital model with 3 variables. As far as I am concerned I would expect ANY DSLR in 2012 - with the possible exception of the very lowest end models - to give users full and direct control over all three exposure parameters in all operating modes and in a coherent and intuitive user interface.

 

[PhilDrinkwater]

Ahh! I know those a 1 series not series 1

I guess my point is that I'm not buying one of those...

The problem in this thread is that all Canon bodies are being stated as not having P mode with auto iso and fine shutter speed adjustment nor AV/manual mode with ec. The 1D4 has this as will the 1DX. The eroneous facts are then being used to slate Canon and praise Nikon which have the function with the D800 and the D4

I am sure we could find functionality that is in the Canon but not in the Nikon if we were in to trolling

Are you suggesting I'm trolling? Because all I'm aware of doing is pointing out something which stops the feature working correctly.

 

[briansquibb]

Ahh! I know those a 1 series not series 1

I guess my point is that I'm not buying one of those...

The problem in this thread is that all Canon bodies are being stated as not having P mode with auto iso and fine shutter speed adjustment nor AV/manual mode with ec. The 1D4 has this as will the 1DX. The eroneous facts are then being used to slate Canon and praise Nikon which have the function with the D800 and the D4

I am sure we could find functionality that is in the Canon but not in the Nikon if we were in to trolling

Are you suggesting I'm trolling? Because all I'm aware of doing is pointing out something which stops the feature working correctly.

Not at all and I cannot see any suggestion from me that you have. I haven't seen a Canon user trolling Nikon yet - considering how much trolling of Canon has been happening on this forum I am pleased to see that that it hasn't been reciprocated

 

[PhilDrinkwater]

Ahh! I know those a 1 series not series 1

I guess my point is that I'm not buying one of those...

The problem in this thread is that all Canon bodies are being stated as not having P mode with auto iso and fine shutter speed adjustment nor AV/manual mode with ec. The 1D4 has this as will the 1DX. The eroneous facts are then being used to slate Canon and praise Nikon which have the function with the D800 and the D4

I am sure we could find functionality that is in the Canon but not in the Nikon if we were in to trolling

Are you suggesting I'm trolling? Because all I'm aware of doing is pointing out something which stops the feature working correctly.

Not at all and I cannot see any suggestion from me that you have. I haven't seen a Canon user trolling Nikon yet - considering how much trolling of Canon has been happening on this forum I am pleased to see that that it hasn't been reciprocated

OK that's why I was asking... I wasn't sure...

 

[briansquibb]

Ahh! I know those a 1 series not series 1

I guess my point is that I'm not buying one of those...

The problem in this thread is that all Canon bodies are being stated as not having P mode with auto iso and fine shutter speed adjustment nor AV/manual mode with ec. The 1D4 has this as will the 1DX. The eroneous facts are then being used to slate Canon and praise Nikon which have the function with the D800 and the D4

I am sure we could find functionality that is in the Canon but not in the Nikon if we were in to trolling

Are you suggesting I'm trolling? Because all I'm aware of doing is pointing out something which stops the feature working correctly.

Not at all and I cannot see any suggestion from me that you have. I haven't seen a Canon user trolling Nikon yet - considering how much trolling of Canon has been happening on this forum I am pleased to see that that it hasn't been reciprocated

OK that's why I was asking... I wasn't sure...

8) 8) 8) 8)

 

[sarangiman]

The talk of the 1-series brings up an interesting point: Canon holds back features from lower cameras while Nikon doesn't fear lower-end cameras cannibalizing sales of their higher end cameras. E.g. the AF in the D700/800-- this sort of competition is good, b/c then Canon knows it can't get away with not placing a pro-AF system in the 5D series. People shouldn't be forced to spend $7k & buy the highest end camera just to get a camera that can focus... one would think that's basic functionality If you care about your customer base, the decision to go to 1-series should be based on more specialized features-- FPS, e.g., or the customizable focus screens, etc. Those I'm ok with. But the ability to focus with anything outside of the center focus point? C'mon. I'm glad Canon didn't cripple the AF in the 5DIII; it's amazing in use so far!

as a matter of fact, this is exactly what a Nikon D800/D4 lets you do (in A and P modes, points #3 and #4 from my list) ... fully automatically, based on the focal length of the lens attached or the focal length a zoom lens is set to.

Actually, I think the fastest way to change the effective minimum shutter speed as you're swapping out lenses would be to shoot in M mode... you pick the aperture best suited for your subjects, then you dial in the shutter speed w/ the main dial -- you can change it on the fly without any button presses, just by turning the dial! Then Auto ISO takes care of the rest. This is effectively what you can do in M mode... just without EC on the Canon. So that's a huge limitation, IMHO.

As for the whole 'fast' vs. 'slow' algorithms for changing ISO -- I believe that's more complicated... dunno if Canon will implement that in firmware... would be nice, but would probably be a lot of code to add. EC in M mode is a must though.

As for Auto ISO w/ flash in M mode... I'm kind of ambivalent... I like to set shutter speed/aperture/ISO to a setting that gives me some background exposure of my choosing, not the camera's choosing... then vary off-camera flash power for the correct amount of lighting on the subject. Auto ISO here seems unnecessary/complicated... but someone's welcome to present a scenario to change my mind here

 

[briansquibb]

Then Auto ISO takes care of the rest. This is effectively what you can do in M mode... just without EC on the Canon. So that's a huge limitation, IMHO.

As for the whole 'fast' vs. 'slow' algorithms for changing ISO -- I believe that's more complicated... dunno if Canon will implement that in firmware... would be nice, but would probably be a lot of code to add. EC in M mode is a must though.

As for Auto ISO w/ flash in M mode... I'm kind of ambivalent... I like to set shutter speed/aperture/ISO to a setting that gives me some background exposure of my choosing, not the camera's choosing... then vary off-camera flash power for the correct amount of lighting on the subject. Auto ISO here seems unnecessary/complicated... but someone's welcome to present a scenario to change my mind here

I think for M mode it should be ec for auto iso. In non auto iso M mode you have ec already

Auto iso for flash works OK for infill. You also have FEC to play with to get the flash/ambient balance correct

 

[sarangiman]

I think for M mode it should be ec for auto iso. In non auto iso M mode you have ec already

OK! So we're all in agreement then!

Where do we most effectively bug Canon about this sort of thing? I'd be happy to submit a request.

 

[briansquibb]

I think for M mode it should be ec for auto iso. In non auto iso M mode you have ec already

OK! So we're all in agreement then!

Where do we most effectively bug Canon about this sort of thing? I'd be happy to submit a request.

I guess as we have ec, fec then we are after 'aiec' ;D