Back & Forth, No 4K for EOS 5D Mark IV?

[pedro]

But if stills are all you want to shoot (like in my case), I have to hold out that the 5D4 will:

* Deliver on stills IQ in a considerably better way than my 5D3 (another stop or two of high ISO with similar noise, more DR, better AF, improved metering, MF lens assistance, etc.)

* Not burn my wallet for video features I do not need

...or I'm not going to buy it. We'll see how that pans out. It might turn out that a future 6D2 is the FF stills rig we need, because we *know* that rig will be nerfed for video. Hopefully it won't be nerfed for burst rate or AF too badly as well.

- A

Dead on, ahsanford. Although, I cannot imagine the feasability of two additional ISO stops with similar noise. But: will a bumped up sensor to 24-28 MP technically be able to do that? I could see that in an 18 MP sensor with new tech (if I read our expert's comments here on the forum). But I am not sure, if Canon really canniballize their flag ship by an allrounder cam high ISO wise. Therefore, give me very clean ISO 25600 on the next 5D and I'll call it a day ;-)

 

[dolina]

It is nice to have as 4K displays are already widely available.

 

[Creative69]

Competing camera GH4????? are you serious?

Yeah, why not? I bet he was. Why would he not be? The GH4 flew off the shelves in far greater numbers than expected because of the 4k video. Or that the 5D2 also beat expectations with help from the video crowd.

I guarantee Canon know their market better than most people here give them credit for.

The same Canon that laughed at the RX100 at few years back and said that they were certain there was zero market for such a camera.... and now a couple years later after RX100 flew off the shelves they scramble out with their clone.

The new Canon EC10 has 4K just go and buy that,

Why? When for just 20% more money we could get a BM Ursa Mini that has a much larger sensor, does 4k at 60p, takes Canon EF lenses instead of being restricted to a built-in lens, I believe has RAW HD option, I think hits something like 150fps in HD, etc. etc. etc.

Also, you do realize that a 5D4 with nice 4k video means lugging around ONE item, especially nice on hikes and it means spending a large chunk of money once instead of twice?

is it a personal vendetta that some people have waged against Canon to push them to include 4K? I applaud Canon for sticking to their principles

Leaving out 4k is sticking to their principals??? What principal is that????

I personally would never use my dslr for video, horses for courses but thats me.

Fine enough, but also you do realize the 5D4 will still have some video, even if likely forgetable by today's standards so it won't be your 'pure' stills only body anyway. It will have just enough video to annoy the so-called 'purists' and not enough video to satisfy the stills/video crowd. Sounds like the best of both worlds .

Don't worry Canon won't get off that easy though they better bring a real improvement to the quality of stills which I'm sure they will and even then its not because I particularly need it but just to show that advances are being made.

I would have that they will too, but looking at the 5Ds.... it's the same old, same old, and that was supposed to be a dedicated landscape image quality camera.... unless the dual-gain read rumor is true, then it may be game on again, at least up to 18MP level.

GH4 flying off the shelves....So what!! thats my point those who bought them obviously wasn't concerned or did not want / need the stills capability that the 5D offered. Point proven, we are all different with different needs. It seems that Canon has aligned itself with users who have needs such as mine and I'm good with that. To those who are going to throw tantrums and sell all their Canon kit if the new camera does not have 4K again I say you obviously have no requirement or appreciation for the principles of which the 5D was born, which was to be a fine stills camera.

 

[Creative69]

I applaud Canon for sticking to their principles I personally would never use my dslr for video, horses for courses but thats me.

Me too!

I happen to be a stills only shooter who agrees with you, but "sticking to their principles"?

Would the Cinema EOS line even exist if the 5D2 wasn't such a massive hit as a video rig? What principles are they sticking to by not trying to limiting the video appeal of the 5D4?

Oh... Their principle of making as much money as possible. That one. I always forget that one.

I retract my question.

- A

Yep its all about the money... would you be happier if Canon were to go out of business?
As you well know world the of video has changed since the 5D ii came along, we have serious and affordable options now like https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/cinemacameras. I understand many people want gadgets that can do it all and then complain when it doesn't do any one thing particulally well. This exactly why the 5Ds is a seperate product, its a tool for a specific purpose, but again average Jo fails to get it. Well I'm just saying that I get it and yes I see it as Canon sticking to their principles.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Competing camera GH4????? are you serious?

Yeah, why not? I bet he was. Why would he not be? The GH4 flew off the shelves in far greater numbers than expected because of the 4k video. Or that the 5D2 also beat expectations with help from the video crowd.

I guarantee Canon know their market better than most people here give them credit for.

The same Canon that laughed at the RX100 at few years back and said that they were certain there was zero market for such a camera.... and now a couple years later after RX100 flew off the shelves they scramble out with their clone.

The new Canon EC10 has 4K just go and buy that,

Why? When for just 20% more money we could get a BM Ursa Mini that has a much larger sensor, does 4k at 60p, takes Canon EF lenses instead of being restricted to a built-in lens, I believe has RAW HD option, I think hits something like 150fps in HD, etc. etc. etc.

Also, you do realize that a 5D4 with nice 4k video means lugging around ONE item, especially nice on hikes and it means spending a large chunk of money once instead of twice?

is it a personal vendetta that some people have waged against Canon to push them to include 4K? I applaud Canon for sticking to their principles

Leaving out 4k is sticking to their principals??? What principal is that????

I personally would never use my dslr for video, horses for courses but thats me.

Fine enough, but also you do realize the 5D4 will still have some video, even if likely forgetable by today's standards so it won't be your 'pure' stills only body anyway. It will have just enough video to annoy the so-called 'purists' and not enough video to satisfy the stills/video crowd. Sounds like the best of both worlds .

Don't worry Canon won't get off that easy though they better bring a real improvement to the quality of stills which I'm sure they will and even then its not because I particularly need it but just to show that advances are being made.

I would have that they will too, but looking at the 5Ds.... it's the same old, same old, and that was supposed to be a dedicated landscape image quality camera.... unless the dual-gain read rumor is true, then it may be game on again, at least up to 18MP level.

GH4 flying off the shelves....So what!! thats my point those who bought them obviously wasn't concerned or did not want / need the stills capability that the 5D offered. Point proven, we are all different with different needs. It seems that Canon has aligned itself with users who have needs such as mine and I'm good with that. To those who are going to throw tantrums and sell all their Canon kit if the new camera does not have 4K again I say you obviously have no requirement or appreciation for the principles of which the 5D was born, which was to be a fine stills camera.

1. How does making a camera worse at something than the competition make it better?
2. What makes you think it will be so awesome for stills? EVen the 5Ds, a dedicated landscape camera, got a 2007-type sensor. The 5D4c rumor gave hope to new sensors, but if that is false and the no-4k no dual-gain rumor is true then....

 

[Hellish]

If the 5D4 doesnt have 4k I am jumping ship. The 7D2 should of had it, and the future 80D should also have it, stop crippling your cameras.

 

[Creative69]

If the 5D4 doesnt have 4k I am jumping ship. The 7D2 should of had it, and the future 80D should also have it, stop crippling your cameras.

Yeah you should! But I'm wondering what you jump to?

 

[Creative69]

Competing camera GH4????? are you serious?

Yeah, why not? I bet he was. Why would he not be? The GH4 flew off the shelves in far greater numbers than expected because of the 4k video. Or that the 5D2 also beat expectations with help from the video crowd.

I guarantee Canon know their market better than most people here give them credit for.

The same Canon that laughed at the RX100 at few years back and said that they were certain there was zero market for such a camera.... and now a couple years later after RX100 flew off the shelves they scramble out with their clone.

The new Canon EC10 has 4K just go and buy that,

Why? When for just 20% more money we could get a BM Ursa Mini that has a much larger sensor, does 4k at 60p, takes Canon EF lenses instead of being restricted to a built-in lens, I believe has RAW HD option, I think hits something like 150fps in HD, etc. etc. etc.

Also, you do realize that a 5D4 with nice 4k video means lugging around ONE item, especially nice on hikes and it means spending a large chunk of money once instead of twice?

is it a personal vendetta that some people have waged against Canon to push them to include 4K? I applaud Canon for sticking to their principles

Leaving out 4k is sticking to their principals??? What principal is that????

I personally would never use my dslr for video, horses for courses but thats me.

Fine enough, but also you do realize the 5D4 will still have some video, even if likely forgetable by today's standards so it won't be your 'pure' stills only body anyway. It will have just enough video to annoy the so-called 'purists' and not enough video to satisfy the stills/video crowd. Sounds like the best of both worlds .

Don't worry Canon won't get off that easy though they better bring a real improvement to the quality of stills which I'm sure they will and even then its not because I particularly need it but just to show that advances are being made.

I would have that they will too, but looking at the 5Ds.... it's the same old, same old, and that was supposed to be a dedicated landscape image quality camera.... unless the dual-gain read rumor is true, then it may be game on again, at least up to 18MP level.

GH4 flying off the shelves....So what!! thats my point those who bought them obviously wasn't concerned or did not want / need the stills capability that the 5D offered. Point proven, we are all different with different needs. It seems that Canon has aligned itself with users who have needs such as mine and I'm good with that. To those who are going to throw tantrums and sell all their Canon kit if the new camera does not have 4K again I say you obviously have no requirement or appreciation for the principles of which the 5D was born, which was to be a fine stills camera.

1. How does making a camera worse at something than the competition make it better?
2. What makes you think it will be so awesome for stills? EVen the 5Ds, a dedicated landscape camera, got a 2007-type sensor. The 5D4c rumor gave hope to new sensors, but if that is false and the no-4k no dual-gain rumor is true then....

1. Worse or better is completely subjective.

2. I have seen pretty awesome images created on a 5D but I guess those were taken by real photographers who knew how to get the best out of the tools.

3. To sympathise I can see how if you're not happy with your images you would want the added features to maybe compensate for that.

When the 5D was created it was never promised it would be up there with the latest and greatest in the world of video. If I purchase a family car I wouldn't expect the manufacturer to turn the latest model into a 4x4 just because it's in fashion. Yes it's a stills camera with some video capability and that's it.
So for those threatening to leave Canon, if your requirements have moved to video just do it! And celebrate the fact we have such choice today!

 

[K-amps]

I suspect, we will get only one 5d4, it will be a 4k model, with 18mp, 8-10 fps AND with enhanced DR, all these three attributes seem to go together.

Want more MP?

Canon would like to sell you a 50mp still camera....

5d5 might get 24-28 mp with high DR and great High iso performance but not in 2015 when Canon is still releasing 2007 tech sensors.

This is not what I want them to do... but seems the way things are going. If they still release a 5d3 type sensor, I will be very disappointed... but not surprised.

 

[clarksbrother]

I suspect, we will get only one 5d4, it will be a 4k model, with 18mp, 8-10 fps AND with enhanced DR, all these three attributes seem to go together.

Want more MP?

Canon would like to sell you a 50mp still camera....

5d5 might get 24-28 mp with high DR and great High iso performance but not in 2015 when Canon is still releasing 2007 tech sensors.

This is not what I want them to do... but seems the way things are going. If they still release a 5d3 type sensor, I will be very disappointed... but not surprised.

In general, I hope the spec sheet you predict is correct. I'm willing to sacrifice a little (not a lot, but a little) MP for greater DR and better low light performance. Making sure there is also 4K, 8-10fps and an enhanced focus system and you'd have a winner on your hands.

If I were designing the product line, I'd do much of the above, and then put out the next 1D series with a new tech sensor that was around 32-36mp, similar DR to the 5D4, 12-15fps and some either enhanced framerate capability at 4K and 1080 as well as possibly some RAW output.

That's doable TODAY with current tech. Not only would they make the 5D market (generally) happy but they'd preserve the tiered system to maximize profits.

 

[sanj]

All this while all the Canon cameras I have, I had never once use Video except for "Oh, this is how you take videos" with that button. Not sure why all the asking for video features and wanting "4K" for if I'm using a DSLR camera as what it should be..a DSLR for photography.

User who are interested in Video should get one that does just seriously video and Canon has plenty to give on that with their range of video cams. I hope Canon makes a 5D FF or a 7D MK III just like Nikon did with their Nikon "DF" model..yah, no video. Maybe with video features..a few other things may be incorporated into such a "no video Canon" DSLR camera.

?? There are others in this world too who use their equipment differently.

 

[gregory4000]

Maybe Canon is making the third version of the 5dlV for Video.
We'll have a high res version, a dedicated still model and now a cinema model.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

1. Worse or better is completely subjective.

That depends. If you are looking for a fast entry for the 100m dash and you have someone who has never done better than 14s and someone who routinely hits sub 10.0s then I think it's safe to say that the second sprinter is better.

If one camera has high-quality HD and 4k and basic usability features and one camera has poor quality 1080p HD (and only the same or less frame rates) and poor usability features is it really still subjective at that point?

worse or better can be completely subjective at times, but it can be (all but) completely objective at other times

2. I have seen pretty awesome images created on a 5D but I guess those were taken by real photographers who knew how to get the best out of the tools.

Who has EVER said otherwise? Total made-up straw man argument.
And it's actually counter to your point of view.
You can take nice photos with the current 5D3, so why the heck should you spend another $3500 for some new one unless it really brings a lot of majorly new and improved stuff (also of the sort that you might personally make use of)?

3. To sympathise I can see how if you're not happy with your images you would want the added features to maybe compensate for that.

LOL and out comes the typical throwing of shade.

Why don't you just go back to the 10D if it takes every single type of photo in every single scenario as best as you wish? Ask Peter Reed Miller to dump all his gear and shoot the next superbowl with a 10D and the original 75-300 IS or maybe a 24mm T&S?

When the 5D was created it was never promised it would be up there with the latest and greatest in the world of video. If I purchase a family car I wouldn't expect the manufacturer to turn the latest model into a 4x4 just because it's in fashion. Yes it's a stills camera with some video capability and that's it.
So for those threatening to leave Canon, if your requirements have moved to video just do it! And celebrate the fact we have such choice today!

I was just saying don't be so happy about the possibility that the 5D4c might be false since the 5D4c rumor also brought with it talk of much improved sensors and radically higher fps....

And why so defensive over celebrating Canon offering less for more?

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

I suspect, we will get only one 5d4, it will be a 4k model, with 18mp, 8-10 fps AND with enhanced DR, all these three attributes seem to go together.

Want more MP?

Canon would like to sell you a 50mp still camera....

If it was for legit reasons of making video top notch (and they couldn't say do an on-chip bin from a 40MP sensor and be 95% of the same quality) then I'd be happy with that 5D4 (so long as it truly did deliver video and had basic like zebras, focusing aids, 10bit slog 15 stops packed, 4:2:2, not mushy or waxy or weird), that would be pretty awesome even if I definitely would miss the MP. I mean that would allow for some amazing video!!!!! And the stills would be awesome (other than for cropping and reach), but it might be a legit compromise to get the top of the top video. It would be a beast. A pure stills shooter might well prefer a D810 or D820 though and pure landscape shooter a D810 or D820 or A7R or A7R II though since you'd get 36-50MP and high DR. As a dual still and video shooter though (who sometimes stills shoots a little action too), I'd actually be more for the 5D4 though (it would easily the lightest, most compact, all-in-one, most cost effective).

IMO the 5Ds would look really bad though, they cripple the crop mode to make sure it doesn't become more all-around and cripple the sensor by using the old tech (unless it's that they are still using 500nm and can't do dual-gain on a high MP sensor on 500nm, but that would actually be worse in many ways and still crippled, just for less direct reasons and with a lot worse forward view).

If they still release a 5d3 type sensor, I will be very disappointed... but not surprised.

yeah now if they do that, blah and probably jumping ship (As I had already started to look into before all these dual-gain rumors came out)

and that plus no 4k, yeah I'm back to having given up and getting my alternate plans in full motion again

 

[Creative69]

1. Worse or better is completely subjective.

That depends. If you are looking for a fast entry for the 100m dash and you have someone who has never done better than 14s and someone who routinely hits sub 10.0s then I think it's safe to say that the second sprinter is better.

If one camera has high-quality HD and 4k and basic usability features and one camera has poor quality 1080p HD (and only the same or less frame rates) and poor usability features is it really still subjective at that point?

worse or better can be completely subjective at times, but it can be (all but) completely objective at other times

2. I have seen pretty awesome images created on a 5D but I guess those were taken by real photographers who knew how to get the best out of the tools.

Who has EVER said otherwise? Total made-up straw man argument.
And it's actually counter to your point of view.
You can take nice photos with the current 5D3, so why the heck should you spend another $3500 for some new one unless it really brings a lot of majorly new and improved stuff (also of the sort that you might personally make use of)?

3. To sympathise I can see how if you're not happy with your images you would want the added features to maybe compensate for that.

LOL and out comes the typical throwing of shade.

Why don't you just go back to the 10D if it takes every single type of photo in every single scenario as best as you wish? Ask Peter Reed Miller to dump all his gear and shoot the next superbowl with a 10D and the original 75-300 IS or maybe a 24mm T&S?

When the 5D was created it was never promised it would be up there with the latest and greatest in the world of video. If I purchase a family car I wouldn't expect the manufacturer to turn the latest model into a 4x4 just because it's in fashion. Yes it's a stills camera with some video capability and that's it.
So for those threatening to leave Canon, if your requirements have moved to video just do it! And celebrate the fact we have such choice today!

I was just saying don't be so happy about the possibility that the 5D4c might be false since the 5D4c rumor also brought with it talk of much improved sensors and radically higher fps....

And why so defensive over celebrating Canon offering less for more?

Ok it's always hard when speaking via text, I'm really not intending to be aggressive or defensive. I would like to see improvements as much as you obviously do. My point is, to suggest that the 5D needs 4K or Canon is doomed is laughable. Canon created a rod for its own back when the 5DII and 7D came out, users found how to record and grade half decent video with these cameras. Generally speaking it was those who couldn't afford the real vid cams of the time who pushed the boundaries. The whole DSLR movie scene was born out of creative people pushing limits with what was affordable and available at the time. Obviously Canon took advantage and made a big deal out of the 5D video capability. But as usual it wasn't the manufacturer that created the legend it was the unknown users as well as people like Philip Bloom.

Then came 4K and every smart phone offered it but what the majority of people do not understand is that 4K on a smart phone is not the same as it is on a Black Magic camera for instance. Canon make professional 4K capable cameras and if they're not willing to make the necessary compromises to shoe horn 4K into a camera that has a very solid and reliable reputation then I completely understand. The Panasonic GH4 has little to lose; it had to make a name for itself for something, so yes it has become in my opinion a great ametuer 4K camera. I think the 5Ds is a step in the right direction and if Canon continue to provide tools that are specialised in a particular area then that may be because they feel the product will be much more capable that way. Of course making a little extra cash along the way but hey thats business right?

 

[Hellish]

If the 5D4 doesnt have 4k I am jumping ship. The 7D2 should of had it, and the future 80D should also have it, stop crippling your cameras.

Yeah you should! But I'm wondering what you jump to?

Any future Full-Frame Sony E Mount that will have 4k (Internal or not) + a GH5.

You pair up the FF Sony E with the Sony Zeiss Distagon 35mm f/1.4 ZA, and the GH5 with the Panasonic Leica Nocticron 42.5mm f/1.2 OIS (85mm Equiv) and you are not only covered for stills but shooting amazing video as well.

2 camera wedding use set-up

 

[pedro]

I suspect, we will get only one 5d4, it will be a 4k model, with 18mp, 8-10 fps AND with enhanced DR, all these three attributes seem to go together.

Want more MP?

Canon would like to sell you a 50mp still camera....

5d5 might get 24-28 mp with high DR and great High iso performance but not in 2015 when Canon is still releasing 2007 tech sensors.

This is not what I want them to do... but seems the way things are going. If they still release a 5d3 type sensor, I will be very disappointed... but not surprised.

In general, I hope the spec sheet you predict is correct. I'm willing to sacrifice a little (not a lot, but a little) MP for greater DR and better low light performance. Making sure there is also 4K, 8-10fps and an enhanced focus system and you'd have a winner on your hands.

Plus one. Hope they do such an 18 MP version, if they split these 5Ds anyway.

 

[Tugela]

Bah! I won't put too much weight on this rumor since it's coming from GH4K.com, er I mean EOSHD.com
Andrew is a little prone to hyperbole and has so much hate for the cameras that his site is named for that I can't take anything that he says with much confidence.

That site is focused on video. The fact that they don't talk much about Canon products in spite of the site's name is due to Canon basically having not done any development on the video functions of their cameras since the original implementation, whereas the competition has picked up the ball and ran. That is why so much of the discussion there is about non-EOS cameras - Canon are basically not even in the game.

You can only live on past glory for so long before you get written off as out of touch.

 

[Tugela]

Left field idea: any possibility that the 5D4 is designed that it will record 4K but Canon simply blocks that feature with firmware to prevent undercutting Cinema EOS sales?

If they did, Canon could play wait and see on 4K and see if videographers really will jump ship without it. If enough folks say that they'll leave Canon over this, Canon can just release a firmware update to unlock 4K on the 5D4. Canon would give up on their upcharge strategy, but that's a lot easier than racing a new model to market.

- A

No. They make money selling hardware, not handing out firmware updates. They will want you to buy a new camera, and that won't happen if they give you the new functions for free through firmware.

 

[K-amps]

If I were designing the product line, I'd do much of the above, and then put out the next 1D series with a new tech sensor that was around 32-36mp, similar DR to the 5D4, 12-15fps and some either enhanced framerate capability at 4K and 1080 as well .........

I don't make money off Photography, but if that 1dxii came with those specs, I would buy it... along with the 11-24, and 100-400ii Canon please, take my money.