C-Log Coming to the Canon EOS 5D Mark IV?

[Chaitanya]

while rumoured addition of C-Log is a positive change of attitude by Canon, Canon should really kill that overbloated crappya** Mjpeg format of video.

 

[ahsanford]

Just curious, on my prior comment about a firmware update like this possibly being a course correction or admission Canon should have offered this at launch (and was withholding it deliberately), with what data would they make this course correction / upgrade decision?

If the firmware only offers this -- a potentially important video functionality -- it might imply that Canon has information above and beyond basic 5D4 sales to make this call. Are there any Canon-branded items more expressly intended for video that might peg that 5D4's weren't selling as well as it could to the video crowd?

Put another way, I'm just curious if low sales of (I'm riffing here) video-centric 5D4 reseller kits or critical video third party accessories (mics, monitors, shoulder rigs, etc.) might get back to Canon and lead to the theory that the lack of C-Log was the reason.

Again: zero interest in video. I'm just interested how Canon turns the knobs it does with existing product lines, and what data / intel they might use to make those calls. Thoughts appreciated, thx.

- A

P.S. And on something I do care about, why didn't the relatively modest bump to 7 fps stills not set off the same 'action needed' alarms at Canon?

 

[Jopa]

I would hope they do not forget about the 1DX Mark II!

Had to login to upvote this post! If it happens the 1dx2 will be a killer camera.

 

[tpatana]

I'm quite newbie in regards to video. So assuming it gets the C-log, how would I use that to my benefit? Do I need to apply some curves on post process, or how?

 

[tmroper]

Just curious, on my prior comment about a firmware update like this possibly being a course correction or admission Canon should have offered this at launch (and was withholding it deliberately), with what data would they make this course correction / upgrade decision?

Panasonic only offers their V-Log on the GH4 as a $100 option (and they started offering it well after launch I think). And as I understand it, the upcoming GH5 will be the same deal. And both of those cameras are seriously aimed at the video market. So Canon's not the only one messing around with when and how to offer log, and neither approach seems to make all that much sense, but I don't think you can read too much into it.

 

[cenkog]

I'm curious -- I'm not a video person (at all) but I always find post-market 'upgrades' like the 7D1's firmware upgrade as a chance to breathe energy into a brand. Mid-cycle of a product, legit upgrades like this make sense to signal the brand will still be around for a while / a refresh isn't coming soon.

But to do it within the first year might imply two very different things:

• It wasn't ready at time of launch but now they've got it working well and feel comfortable offering it.
  
• It may have always been working on the camera but it was locked out in firmware to protect higher brand-level camera prices. Perhaps enough people complained that feature wasn't included / Canon underestimated the necessity of that feature such that Canon felt the need to unlock it.

Just curious why Canon wouldn't have this at launch but they are offering/unlocking it now.

- A

In the past, Canon upgraded video capabilities because professional broadcast people were willing to buy large numbers of cameras if the features were added. I suspect that this time, Canon marketing is trying to prevent broadcasters from purchasing a different brand. The MK IV while not selling poorly, is not wildly successful either, and the tough climate for camera sales probably induces Canon to provide more features if they boost sales.

Not every broadcaster needs a expensive camera and $50,000 lens. I'd suspect that there is a large market for local television stations, for example. There is really no need for a high end camera to do interviews, or videos of traffic accidents, or even produce local commercials where the cost is a huge factor.

After Canon's 5DMKIV & Canon 1DXMKII "video fiasco", hopeless efforts to save the very bad situation...

 

[cenkog]

The MK IV while not selling poorly, is not wildly successful either, and the tough climate for camera sales probably induces Canon to provide more features if they boost sales.

how exactly do you know that?

in NA .. it's #3 in amazon's DSLR list which is pretty unheard of for a full frame dslr 6 months after release. on BHPhotovideo it's #1 on the DSLR list and #1 on the camera list.

... it's supposed to do better than that?

10th in all "Amazon Interchangeable Cameras" list...

 

[hne]

I'm quite newbie in regards to video. So assuming it gets the C-log, how would I use that to my benefit? Do I need to apply some curves on post process, or how?

Yep. C-Log is (rather simplified) a smooth curve that never truly reaches pure white, instead of the default Rec709 luma transfer function that hits the roof and burns all that's brighter. You need a LUT to get proper colour out of it, but you gain a stop or two extra artifact-free (since there are no knee points, and colour hasn't been enhanced in a irreversable way before storing) hilights or shadows depending on how you manage your exposure.

The three priorities addressed by C-Log, as stated by Canon:
Priority 1 Optimized Tonal Reproduction under Normal Scene Illumination
Priority 2 Lowering the Noise Floor for Precision Image Reproduction
Priority 3 Maximizing Exposure Latitude for High Dynamic Range Scenes

You can read all about C-Log here: http://learn.usa.canon.com/app/pdfs/white_papers/White_Paper_Clog_optoelectronic.pdf
Figure 9 on page 10 is especially nice.

 

[benkam]

Whoa, adding C-Log would be pretty big in the Canon DSLR video world, wouldn't it?

Could this possibly be only part, but a big one, of a bigger video-oriented firmware upgrade? They could also add things like focus peaking and zebras if they wanted to, right? Could Canon also offer a newer, more efficient codec alongside, or to replace, MJPEG?

 

[JJJandak]

Could this possibly be only part, but a big one, of a bigger video-oriented firmware upgrade? They could also add things like focus peaking and zebras if they wanted to, right? Could Canon also offer a newer, more efficient codec alongside, or to replace, MJPEG?

All is possible if they want to do it, except MJPEG.. They choose reability and quality, other codecs will makes issues.
I shoot video with mk IV for some whille and I am happy even without all that features other brands offer..

 

[cenkog]

Could this possibly be only part, but a big one, of a bigger video-oriented firmware upgrade? They could also add things like focus peaking and zebras if they wanted to, right? Could Canon also offer a newer, more efficient codec alongside, or to replace, MJPEG?

All is possible if they want to do it, except MJPEG.. They choose reability and quality, other codecs will makes issues.
I shoot video with mk IV for some whille and I am happy even without all that features other brands offer..

If this codec has the most reliability & quality, Canon would choose it for C-100, C-300, C-700 cameras... Definitely not... This very old & impractical codec has been chosen only to separate the DSLR line from other real & costly cinema cameras of the same brand...

 

[douglaurent]

I shoot with 5D4 and 1DX2, and implementing C-Log only on the 5D4 would make it useless - and would make me wonder why the twice as expensive camera has worse features. Canon needs to understand many people who create videos will never ever buy a C100, C300, C500 or C700, because aside from added ND filters tons of relevant photo features are missing.

Canon's limiting product offers make people switch to Sony and Panasonic. The 9 year old 5D2 has - thanks to free Magic Lantern - tons of more and better features than the 5D4. Especially focus peaking would be extremely helpful also for photography! This is a feature that Canon could realistically implement, there are cameras by competitors for 300 bucks who have it.

 

[Bernard]

All is possible if they want to do it, except MJPEG.. They choose reability and quality, other codecs will makes issues.

I think that the only people who complain about MJPEG are the ones who haven't edited and color-corrected video. Sure, it MJPEG files are big, but those big files are better in post. The other option would have been to use ProRes, which is just as big (and doesn't work on all platforms).

Highly-compressed formats are useless for high quality output, and you have to convert them to an editable format anyway, so you use even more storage.

It's not a cheap camera, and filming is not a cheap endeavor. The cost of a few new bigger/faster CF cards adds very little to the total budget.

 

[tr573]

If this codec has the most reliability & quality, Canon would choose it for C-100, C-300, C-700 cameras... Definitely not... This very old & impractical codec has been chosen only to separate the DSLR line from other real & costly cinema cameras of the same brand...

Canon does not have 4k capable 264 DSP's that do not require cooling assistance. That's it. They haven't developed them. End of story.

 

[cenkog]

If this codec has the most reliability & quality, Canon would choose it for C-100, C-300, C-700 cameras... Definitely not... This very old & impractical codec has been chosen only to separate the DSLR line from other real & costly cinema cameras of the same brand...

Canon does not have 4k capable 264 DSP's that do not require cooling assistance. That's it. They haven't developed them. End of story.

A full sensor readout ProRes 25-30 FPS 1K and H264 120 FPS 1K enough for most, for professional looking video projects...

 

[tr573]

If this codec has the most reliability & quality, Canon would choose it for C-100, C-300, C-700 cameras... Definitely not... This very old & impractical codec has been chosen only to separate the DSLR line from other real & costly cinema cameras of the same brand...

Canon does not have 4k capable 264 DSP's that do not require cooling assistance. That's it. They haven't developed them. End of story.

A full sensor readout ProRes 25-30 FPS 1K and H264 120 FPS 1K enough for most, for professional looking video projects...

That's another story entirely, but since you were complaining about MJPEG, which is only used for 4k (not 1080 or 720) , I commented on their capabilities in that realm.

 

[Nakean]

Question: How much does it increase the file size?

It doesn't. It's just a flat color profile meant for grading in post. Your mileage will vary with 8bit 4:2:2

 

[Nakean]

Could this possibly be only part, but a big one, of a bigger video-oriented firmware upgrade? They could also add things like focus peaking and zebras if they wanted to, right? Could Canon also offer a newer, more efficient codec alongside, or to replace, MJPEG?

All is possible if they want to do it, except MJPEG.. They choose reability and quality, other codecs will makes issues.
I shoot video with mk IV for some whille and I am happy even without all that features other brands offer..

If this codec has the most reliability & quality, Canon would choose it for C-100, C-300, C-700 cameras... Definitely not... This very old & impractical codec has been chosen only to separate the DSLR line from other real & costly cinema cameras of the same brand...

MotionJpeg is less compressed than the other flavored codecs, which means less processing power. This means less heat and more reliability of the camera. There isn't enough space in the 5D DSLR body to have fans and proper cooling that is required for sustained recording in the much more cpu intensive compression codecs. Look at the size of the c100 c300 and c700 bodies. They all have fans as well to assist with cooling. Firmware cannot fix this.

 

[Nakean]

All is possible if they want to do it, except MJPEG.. They choose reability and quality, other codecs will makes issues.

I think that the only people who complain about MJPEG are the ones who haven't edited and color-corrected video. Sure, it MJPEG files are big, but those big files are better in post. The other option would have been to use ProRes, which is just as big (and doesn't work on all platforms).

Highly-compressed formats are useless for high quality output, and you have to convert them to an editable format anyway, so you use even more storage.

It's not a cheap camera, and filming is not a cheap endeavor. The cost of a few new bigger/faster CF cards adds very little to the total budget.

Those of us complaining about the MJpeg codec are all editing on systems that can handle ProRes. That statement is just silly, as ProRes is an editing codec. My beef is that these files are just as large (perhaps larger) than ProRes/DnxHR 10bit 4:2:2 and are only 8bit. All the space requirements of an industry standard codec with none of the benefits. Stop drinking the coo-laid man. That codec is loose loose.

 

[jayphotoworks]

All is possible if they want to do it, except MJPEG.. They choose reability and quality, other codecs will makes issues.

I think that the only people who complain about MJPEG are the ones who haven't edited and color-corrected video. Sure, it MJPEG files are big, but those big files are better in post. The other option would have been to use ProRes, which is just as big (and doesn't work on all platforms).

Highly-compressed formats are useless for high quality output, and you have to convert them to an editable format anyway, so you use even more storage.

It's not a cheap camera, and filming is not a cheap endeavor. The cost of a few new bigger/faster CF cards adds very little to the total budget.

Those of us complaining about the MJpeg codec are all editing on systems that can handle ProRes. That statement is just silly, as ProRes is an editing codec. My beef is that these files are just as large (perhaps larger) than ProRes/DnxHR 10bit 4:2:2 and are only 8bit. All the space requirements of an industry standard codec with none of the benefits. Stop drinking the coo-laid man. That codec is loose loose.

Although I was quite adamant against it, I ended up picking up a 5DIV after needing a proper solution for a timelapse motion control rig with all of my Canon glass. Although it has absolutely no video assists of any kind, in DPAF mode, it is great for a second shooter that doesn't have the needed AC focusing skills for quick run-n-gun wedding and event work. Drag the square and keep the subject in the frame and its as easy as that. I was actually beginning to enjoy using the camera assembling Pro-Res 7K timelapse sequences in LRtimelapse until I got to the 4K MJPEG files. Hello slideshow! I'm editing on a dual Xeon 6 core, 64GB ram, ssd boot, ssd cache, 8TB on a Raid-6 array with a dedicated LSI MegaRaid controller. I would expect an easy to use prosumer/consumer camera to have at least an option for an easy to use prosumer/consumer workflow. Brought my system to its knees in Premiere and you don't always have time for proxies on certain jobs (aka same day edits). I can't imagine how someone with a lower end machine might fare with this footage.

While C-Log is welcome, this class of camera shouldn't justify "but its an excellent high-quality, extremely high datarate codec" from trying to justify its existence among pro-level gear. Pro's are already shooting on said equipment with its associated workflow and prosumers/consumers don't need the data management nightmare nor do they have a DIT in tow shooting run-n-gun day to day footage.