Canon Confirms Development of High Megapixel Camera

I understand that with current picture usage patterns, people are less concerned about high resolution/printing/etc., because the screens we currently use don't really require much resolution. But I'm leery of relying on this in the long-term because of an experience I've over the past couple decades.

I was involved in the creation of some of the early web sites for major companies, back when the internet bloomed after pictures were introduced popularly into HTML with the advent of the Mosaic browser. 72 DPI was the order of the day. We made lots of pictures, icons, etc. (all embarrassingly terrible, of course, when you look back on them). Then, some years later, with the introduction of larger screens, people started using higher resolutions, and our old graphics looked fuzzy and pixelated. By this time, a client had switched agencies once or twice since the first site went up, and due to internal turnover, etc., they couldn't locate the original files that created the graphics. So they went through an expensive production process to create a new site.

I saw this happen again when it became popular in the last couple of years to create sites that are sensitive to the technology viewing them - whether it be on a mobile screen, etc.

Point is, I don't need much more than 20 mp now, but I like the images I take of my family, and I want to be able to exploit the best printing methods/etc. 20 years from now for some of them. Pictures of my infant son won't get old for me (he was cute and couldn't talk!), but they too might start to look fuzzy relative to what we're using in 2035.

Conclusions:
- Investing in great glass will have rewards (big fan of Art series lenses, and those Canon cliches, like the 70-200 2.8 IS II).
- High MP coupled with great glass will have rewards, but some of those benefits might be deferred.
- The counterpart to the above conclusion is that when we have 20k monitors and better printing tech in the home, our older images may stand out as being a bit low-resolution.
- Those benefits will be apparent in shots that are lucky enough to have somewhat optimal conditions, such as environmental seeing conditions, light, stability, etc. Those benefits will likely NOT be present in the the many other pictures that don't have those optimal conditions. This will stretch out the continuum of the perceived technical quality among the pictures in our personal portfolios.
- And, finally, the shots that we will like the most 20 years from now are the ones that rely less on sharpness, clear representation and other technical issues (assuming these things are more taken for granted in the future), and more on the art of photography, which tends to stand up regardless of the tech used. Aside from the subject matter photographed, like family photos, the things that will signify will be composition, realized vision, creativity, etc.

Separately:
Especially important for Canon and Nikon is that the higher mp trend is one of the few things that really demands the DSLR camera type. It is unlikely that camera phones would be able to out-megapixel the mount types that allow for the interchangeable lenses with 50mm-100mm front lens elements. The physics of light may just demand that the camera phones sit this out.

I look at the telescope market, where you have lots of small primary mirror diameters in the casual hobbyist market, and then you need to spend a few thousand dollars to get something that can really resolve things - which demands significant glass and a bigger light bucket. Physics defines this, not just the marketing departments of the manufacturers. High megapixel cameras may prove to be a similar moat of protection for Canon and Nikon's high end segments. This implies that they will be trying hard to get to the 50mp-100mp level as soon as possible and make that advantage toll with better glass so as to give the market the impression that this matters, and that their iPhone isn't a solution. Canon may also see this as a printing market opportunity.

-tig
 
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privatebydesign said:
And you are questioning my abilities when you can't even make a 312 px under 5mb jpeg without artifacts when you have the original file?

Utterly amazing.

This is your MO. You latch on to irrelevant details (JPEG compression) and entirely ignore the main point (that motion blur can be dealt with without a tripod). I can't really tell if you do this repeatedly because you're dishonest or just don't know any better.
 
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Lee Jay said:
vscd said:
There is no problem of pixel size.

<physics>There is. </physics>

Yeah...let's talk about that.

I decided to calculate diffraction-limited resolution. Here are the assumptions: Green light (550nm), Bayer full-frame sensor, AA filter, MTF10 cutoff. Here are the results:

f-stop Maximum MP count
1.4 8,333
2.0 4,167
2.8 2,083
4.0 1,042
5.7 521
8.0 260
11.3 130
16.0 65
22.6 33
32.0 16

So, does that seem like a problem to you for the foreseeable future?


your calculations seem off. For FF at f/4.0 a 115 Mp sensor would be diffraction limit.
see
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/resolution.shtml
 
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BeenThere said:
The new Rumor that the high megapixel camera will scale up the 7D II sensor to full frame gives us an opportunity to see the resolution possibilities NOW. Just take a look at your 7 D II images.

Yes, now my pictures will be 1.6 x 2 sharper. Hopefully the new sensor will have a crop feature to only use the center portion so I can still get the 1.6x reach. Or maybe even an option to crop up to 2x so my 500mm can be a 1000mm lens.

But on a serious note, the difference will be that the small real world 20-30% resolution benefit we see with the 7D II will be spread over the entire frame. Provided you have a good lens and a steady hand.
 
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If this 52MP camera really is going to be the 5D Mark IV, then it really, really needs better ways to reduce file size in-camera, including cropping (i.e. 1.4x, 1.6x, 2.0x) and way better reduction methods than mraw and sraw, such as the ones used in the new DNG spec. I'm not really interested in 100,000 100MB raw files. That's 10TB!
 
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brianleighty said:
distant.star said:
.
I haven't read through 19 pages of comments...

But I believe if this is the 5D4, a lot of people will be using the 5D3 for a lot of years to come.
Yeah seems kind of weird. Although one possibility would be to make the 6D mark ii a lot more pro level. Makes sense considering how big an upgrade the 7d mark ii was.

I said this earlier. The 6D Mark II could be a dual-pixel version of the 6D sensor in a 70D or 6D-like body with an evolved version of the 5DIII focusing system (that's what they did with the 70D, which is a dual-pixel sensor with an evolved version of the 7D's focusing system) while the 5D line becomes the high pixel count line with faster frame rates and a magnesium alloy body and weather sealing like the 7DII. So, the 5DIV would be a full frame version of the 7DII while the 6D becomes a plastic body version of the child of the 6D and 5DIII.
 
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Lee Jay said:
I'm not really interested in 100,000 100MB raw files. That's 10TB!

Do you really keep 100.000 files? My ratio of keeper versus shutter releases are 1:3.
And 10TB (2x 5TB) costs about 400€, so below 500 USD - so what?
But if you do have 100.000 files after year(s) of usage, the price should be lower, maybe half...
 
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davidcl0nel said:
Lee Jay said:
I'm not really interested in 100,000 100MB raw files. That's 10TB!

Do you really keep 100.000 files?

No, 200,000.
And 10TB (2x 5TB) costs about 400€, so below 500 USD - so what?

I keep four copies - two laptops that are sync'd and two backups on externals. 10TB would cost over $2,000 and be unable to fit in my laptops since the biggest laptop drive you can get is 2TB and my laptops can only hold three drives.
 
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Lee Jay said:
If this 52MP camera really is going to be the 5D Mark IV, then it really, really needs better ways to reduce file size in-camera, including cropping (i.e. 1.4x, 1.6x, 2.0x) and way better reduction methods than mraw and sraw, such as the ones used in the new DNG spec. I'm not really interested in 100,000 100MB raw files. That's 10TB!

I concur that better lossless compression would be welcome, but why does it matter what they call it? Seems weird.

Lee Jay said:
I keep four copies - two laptops that are sync'd and two backups on externals. 10TB would cost over $2,000 and be unable to fit in my laptops since the biggest laptop drive you can get is 2TB and my laptops can only hold three drives.

What are you using for workflow? If LR, now that it allows for the native files to be offline, you don't necessarily need to maintain them on your laptops. External drives + smart previews will save you a bundle in the era of 8TB drives for under 300 dollars.
 
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3kramd5 said:
Lee Jay said:
If this 52MP camera really is going to be the 5D Mark IV, then it really, really needs better ways to reduce file size in-camera, including cropping (i.e. 1.4x, 1.6x, 2.0x) and way better reduction methods than mraw and sraw, such as the ones used in the new DNG spec. I'm not really interested in 100,000 100MB raw files. That's 10TB!

I concur that better lossless compression would be welcome, but why does it matter what they call it? Seems weird.

Has nothing to do with what they call it. mraw and sraw have white balance baked into the channels. DNG's version is still scene referred so it isn't. This is a MAJOR advantage of the DNG approach. Further, DNG allows you arbitrary reduction in resolution and the choice between lossless and lossy compression. DNG lossy compressed raws at full resolution are far, far superior to mraws and they are smaller as well.
Lee Jay said:
I keep four copies - two laptops that are sync'd and two backups on externals. 10TB would cost over $2,000 and be unable to fit in my laptops since the biggest laptop drive you can get is 2TB and my laptops can only hold three drives.

What are you using for workflow? If LR, now that it allows for the native files to be offline, you don't necessarily need to maintain them on your laptops. External drives + smart previews will save you a bundle in the era of 8TB drives for under 300 dollars.

I like having all my files with me, and I don't like "smart previews" as they are not full resolution and so can't be used to determine focus or motion blur.
 
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distant.star said:
.
I haven't read through 19 pages of comments...

But I believe if this is the 5D4, a lot of people will be using the 5D3 for a lot of years to come.
The 5DIII was nearly perfectly aimed at event photographers. I don't get why they would change that with the 5DIV unless it had two modes, one for ultra resolution/large file size and another that maybe used pixel binning to create smaller higher quality images that allow it to be an improvement over the 5DIII for event photographers.

But, barring something like that, I think you are right.
 
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It would be stupid to make a 52Mp 5DIV. 22 and 52 Mp cover people with different needs (speed & low light/resolution)

It would be much better to do it like Nikon a top Mp model and a medium Mp flexible one.

Just my thoughts...
 
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Lee Jay said:
3kramd5 said:
Lee Jay said:
If this 52MP camera really is going to be the 5D Mark IV, then it really, really needs better ways to reduce file size in-camera, including cropping (i.e. 1.4x, 1.6x, 2.0x) and way better reduction methods than mraw and sraw, such as the ones used in the new DNG spec. I'm not really interested in 100,000 100MB raw files. That's 10TB!

I concur that better lossless compression would be welcome, but why does it matter what they call it? Seems weird.

Has nothing to do with what they call it.

Just making sure. The "if this is going to be the 5D Mark IV" leadin made it sound like you might live with large files in a for example 1DxS, but not a 5D4.

Lee Jay said:
I like having all my files with me, and I don't like "smart previews" as they are not full resolution and so can't be used to determine focus or motion blur.

I agree, they're not as good as having native data local, but they're great for archived stuff. At the very least, they allow me to see on my laptop (which only has 256GB capacity) my full library as-processed on my desktop (which currently has 12TB capacity using "only" 4TB drives in addition to two SSDs for software and workflow), and know what images look like without the annoying 'not found' error I'd get if I merely broke the link between the catalog and the data (i.e. viewed a standard preview without the native data local).

But hey, to each his own.
 
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photonius said:
Lee Jay said:
vscd said:
There is no problem of pixel size.

<physics>There is. </physics>

Yeah...let's talk about that.

I decided to calculate diffraction-limited resolution. Here are the assumptions: Green light (550nm), Bayer full-frame sensor, AA filter, MTF10 cutoff. Here are the results:

f-stop Maximum MP count
1.4 8,333
2.0 4,167
2.8 2,083
4.0 1,042
5.7 521
8.0 260
11.3 130
16.0 65
22.6 33
32.0 16

So, does that seem like a problem to you for the foreseeable future?


your calculations seem off. For FF at f/4.0 a 115 Mp sensor would be diffraction limit.
see
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/resolution.shtml

Just as a benchmark, that site also claims that sensor size has no real meaningful effect on DOF.
 
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3kramd5 said:
Lee Jay said:
3kramd5 said:
Lee Jay said:
If this 52MP camera really is going to be the 5D Mark IV, then it really, really needs better ways to reduce file size in-camera, including cropping (i.e. 1.4x, 1.6x, 2.0x) and way better reduction methods than mraw and sraw, such as the ones used in the new DNG spec. I'm not really interested in 100,000 100MB raw files. That's 10TB!

I concur that better lossless compression would be welcome, but why does it matter what they call it? Seems weird.

Has nothing to do with what they call it.

Just making sure. The "if this is going to be the 5D Mark IV" leadin made it sound like you might live with large files in a for example 1DxS, but not a 5D4.

Lee Jay said:
I like having all my files with me, and I don't like "smart previews" as they are not full resolution and so can't be used to determine focus or motion blur.

I agree, they're not as good as having native data local, but they're great for archived stuff. At the very least, they allow me to see on my laptop (which only has 256GB capacity) my full library as-processed on my desktop (which currently has 12GB capacity using "only" 4TB drives in addition to two SSDs for software and workflow), and know what images look like without the annoying 'not found' error I'd get if I merely moved broke the link between the catalog and the data (i.e. only viewing a standard preview rendered 1:1).

But hey, to each his own.

Well, my laptops currently have 1.75TB expandable to 6TB. Everything fits right now with about 500GB to spare.
 
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Lee Jay said:
Well, my laptops currently have 1.75TB expandable to 6TB. Everything fits right now with about 500GB to spare.

Fair enough, but that 6TB will cost you significantly. I could go to 24TB today for under a thousand dollars (but god help my online backup solution if I have to).

Anyway, this is neither here nor there. Carry on with actual camera speculations :P
 
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