Canon EF 800mm f/5.6 DO IS in Development? [CR2]

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When Canon updated the EF 400mm f/4 DO IS with a verison II, most felt that was a good sign they were still developing DO technology and lenses and we could see more added to the EF lineup.</p>
<p>An update to the EF 800mm f/5.6L IS has been mentioned ever since the new EF 600mm f/4L IS II was announced back in 2011, though nothing has come to market as of yet. Such a lens is a low volume proposition, and there are a lot of other areas Canon can make money on lenses.</p>
<p>I’ve seen talk on forums recently about an 800 DO and whether or not folks would buy one, and at what cost.</p>
<p>We’re told after a lengthy conversation that Canon is indeed continuing to develop DO super telephoto lenses and that 800mm is one of the optical designs. We’ve seen <a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/2012/07/patents-ef-600-f5-6-do-800-f5-6-do/" target="_blank">patents in the past showing an optical design for an 800mm f/5.6 DO IS</a>.</p>
<p>I got the feeling that any replacement of the 800mm f/5.6L IS would be DO. What would it cost? I’d say somewhere between $15,000-$20,000USD.</p>
<p>Nothing is imminent, but it was a good conversation.</p>
 
The great 100-400 II makes the 200-400 less desirable. That means I need a longer lens. 600 is ideal but the current non-DO 600 II is rather large and heavy. A 600 DO would be more useful to me than an 800 DO.
 
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Chaitanya said:
I would prefer non DO 500 f5.6 or 400 f4 foron budget birding.

Relative budget :P
For Canon anything that is bigger than 77mm/82mm is basically in that $5k+++++ super-telephoto price range.

I'd love Sigma to revamp their supertele prime lines with some of their new-found gusto and design processes. Just so there's an alternative to these. I find my Sigma 120-300 OS with a 1.4x to be quite decent (at f/4.5) but there's definitely room to still improve on it.
 
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dufflover said:
Relative budget :P
For Canon anything that is bigger than 77mm/82mm is basically in that $5k+++++ super-telephoto price range.

I'd love Sigma to revamp their supertele prime lines with some of their new-found gusto and design processes. Just so there's an alternative to these. I find my Sigma 120-300 OS with a 1.4x to be quite decent (at f/4.5) but there's definitely room to still improve on it.

I think Sigma would only do that if they can severely undercut Canon on price - the tepid response to their 24-105A (relative to the 50A, for example) indicates that in a head-to-head people will almost always choose the Canon. Their better success is by being where Canon isn't (the 50A and 18-35A especially) and offering great options there.
 
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This is a really smart idea from Canon. The 400mm f2.8 LIS II with a mkIII 2xTC is pretty much as sharp, but the AF is a little sluggish in comparison. It's darn light (comparitively too). The 600mm f4 LIS II with a mkIII 1.4xTC is again, just as sharp and the AF is pretty close in terms of speed and accuracy. It's lighter and cheaper too. So one has to wonder what a native 800mm f5.6 could offer over the other two options? DO is the answer. Make it a lot lighter and a lot shorter and it could in theory be a little bit longer than the native 400 f2.8. If it's as light, I recon that it'll find itself into a number of pro line ups. Imagine this with a 1.4x TC on a 7DII! That's an effective 1800mm focal length.
 
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Darn that G.A.S! It is fun to ogle the goods, though, rather like "lifestyles of the rich and famous".

DO = diffractive optics = basically, a Fresnel lens component in the design, reducing weight greatly.
 
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Some people might still prefer a 600f4DO, and I'm sure it's coming, but the current 800 is older.

I was taking pictures of my niece on horseback with a Samyang 800mm Mirror lens this weekend, on crop. That 1280mm framing was just about perfect from about 60 meters back, a distance you'd still be lucky to catch a moose at.
Not that it never happens, but it's rare enough, and you don't really want to get closer to some animals.
Now if only they can give it at least .2x Maximum Magnification too, 800mm would probably be perfect for getting macro shots without bending over.
 
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It doesn't seem like DO technology would make it much lighter than their regular materials.

I did a comparison of the 400DO II to the 300 2.8 II with a 1.4 extender. Because the 300 with extender gives you 5% more focal length that is equal to another 12% more glass added to the 400 DO II. This would mean DO technology only saves at most 9% weight. Assumption being if Canon made a 420mm f4 it would weight at or less than what a 300 2.8 II plus and 1.4 Extender weighs.

Now if we extend this logic and use the weight of the 600 f4 as a base then a new 800 f5.6 (regular technology) would likely weight in right at 8 pounds. A DO version of this might be 7lb 4 ounces.
 
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800 DO makes sense - it's yet another lens that gives Canon something no other companies can. This is the sort of thing that keeps (a small section of) professional photogs in the Canon camp.

A few thoughts on other points made:

A poster mentioned only modest savings in weight; the shorter length is also a big asset, especially if it makes the difference between carry on or hold.

Yet another poster mentioned they'd prefer a much more modestly priced lens in a shorter focal length. I read this as low-volume, low-margin. Canon would much prefer high-margin on their low volume products :-)

Finally, a third poster wanted Sigma to re-do their super-teles using the same class leading/equalling processes they've used on their recent releases. Unfortunately the exceptionally shallow depth of field with sharp drop off into out of focus areas that long focal length lenses produce means Sigma may wish to hold off until they've nailed the autofocus. Bigger reasons for Sigma not producing a new range of super teles are:
- Super teles don't lend themselves to mass production methods in the same way lenses with smaller elements do. This, coupled with being relatively low volume items means competing on price becomes harder (harder to get economies of scale coupled with less 'scale').
- Given relatively limited resources, Sigma would probably target higher growth areas. Given smaller-sensor cameras with adequate image quality, full frame super telephotos cease to become a sensible option in many shooting scenarios (both on cost and size/weight grounds). Alternative to full frame telephotos will get better over time, and in a market that could well start shrinking.
- A range of professional telephoto lenses has the hidden costs of servicing support above and beyond smaller lenses... this would be a substantial and on-going cost.
 
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Pixel said:
RGF said:
The great 100-400 II makes the 200-400 less desirable.
Speak for yourself on that. ;)

I did. You could say the 200-400 makes the 100-400 II less desirable.

Point is both are great lenses and there is a lot of overlap.

1Dx + 100-400 and 7D II + 200-400 makes a great combination.

1Dx + 100-400 and 1Dx + 600 DO (future lens) is another great combo and perhaps even better ?
 
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Hesbehindyou said:
800 DO makes sense - it's yet another lens that gives Canon something no other companies can. This is the sort of thing that keeps (a small section of) professional photogs in the Canon camp.

A few thoughts on other points made:

A poster mentioned only modest savings in weight; the shorter length is also a big asset, especially if it makes the difference between carry on or hold.

Yet another poster mentioned they'd prefer a much more modestly priced lens in a shorter focal length. I read this as low-volume, low-margin. Canon would much prefer high-margin on their low volume products :-)

Finally, a third poster wanted Sigma to re-do their super-teles using the same class leading/equalling processes they've used on their recent releases. Unfortunately the exceptionally shallow depth of field with sharp drop off into out of focus areas that long focal length lenses produce means Sigma may wish to hold off until they've nailed the autofocus. Bigger reasons for Sigma not producing a new range of super teles are:
- Super teles don't lend themselves to mass production methods in the same way lenses with smaller elements do. This, coupled with being relatively low volume items means competing on price becomes harder (harder to get economies of scale coupled with less 'scale').
- Given relatively limited resources, Sigma would probably target higher growth areas. Given smaller-sensor cameras with adequate image quality, full frame super telephotos cease to become a sensible option in many shooting scenarios (both on cost and size/weight grounds). Alternative to full frame telephotos will get better over time, and in a market that could well start shrinking.
- A range of professional telephoto lenses has the hidden costs of servicing support above and beyond smaller lenses... this would be a substantial and on-going cost.
I agree with most of the above.
I have the 400 DO f4 II. Serial number 0000044, so there are two options; either I was very keen to buy this lens or they just do not sell many of these lenses.
Main reason why I bought the DO over the F2.8 was that I wanted a lens that I can hold handheld. Yes, weight is important, but also where that weight "sits". The DO is is about the same size and weight as a 70-200 F2.8 II and it feels the same, just slightly heavier. The DO on a 1DX is perfectly balanced weight wise. I can easily handheld this lens for an afternoon.
I just wonder what the main advantage would be for an 800 mm DO? It will need support, tripod, bean bag.., so all the palaver about weight, length is secondary to IQ.
I noticed on my 400 DO that chromatic aberration is negligible, it might be intrinsic to the design?
 
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... a third poster wanted Sigma to re-do their super-teles using the same class leading/equalling processes they've used on their recent releases. Unfortunately the exceptionally shallow depth of field with sharp drop off into out of focus areas that long focal length lenses produce means Sigma may wish to hold off until they've nailed the autofocus.


I'm less worried about that with Sigma. I have three of their lenses, and I used the dock on all three and feel they focus better than my L glass afterward, although not as quickly. Using the dock on a zoom is a lengthy, painful process, with the possibility of error coming in due to tedium. But the process with primes is quick and easy, IMO.



- Super teles don't lend themselves to mass production methods in the same way lenses with smaller elements do. This, coupled with being relatively low volume items means competing on price becomes harder (harder to get economies of scale coupled with less 'scale').


A related point: the greater the percentage of the manufacturing cost of a lens that is the glass elements leaves less and less margin possibilities as the lens gets bigger. When they're growing crystals to become lens elements - or buying them in - they have fixed costs and cannot magically buy or create such commodities at half price.


- Given relatively limited resources, Sigma would probably target higher growth areas. Given smaller-sensor cameras with adequate image quality, full frame super telephotos cease to become a sensible option in many shooting scenarios (both on cost and size/weight grounds). Alternative to full frame telephotos will get better over time, and in a market that could well start shrinking.


I think that might be a misreading of what the new Sigma is all about. The new CEO (son of old) is just as monomaniacal about keeping their manufacturing in their hometown. But he is building the business not on volume, but rather higher margin products. They do not want to offshore production again and go back to the old Sigma. That means that they need to focus on higher end lenses to get the most value for their manufacturing capacity, which will grow only relatively slowly. Yes, these lenses might be 1/2 the price of a Canon equivalent, but they're not competing on price.

They have a system where they retool lines every few months to make batches of various higher-end lenses. I think this is well suited to the supertelephoto lenses.

It is also true that they are interested in the smaller ILC camera systems, but largely (so far) to leverage their existing designs. If the little cameras wind up being a large portion of their production, then I could see the supertelephotos taking a back seat, as they'll be less desirable to that market. But that hasn't even started to happen.

Sigma makes a big deal about doing lens designs in categories that others have not already done. As a result, I could see them jumping on a 600 f/5.6. (Nikkor and Pentax used to have versions of that back in the stone ages.) All they'd need to show is that it's better IQ than the 150-600 zooms at 600 (not hard) and has IQ within 95 percent of the 600mm F/4 IS II (rather harder). They would likely price that at $2k.
 
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wopbv4 said:
I just wonder what the main advantage would be for an 800 mm DO? It will need support, tripod, bean bag.., so all the palaver about weight, length is secondary to IQ.

A modern update of the 800mm, assuming the same amount weight savings that the 500mm and 600mm updates got, would be around 7-7.5lbs which is easily handholdable. A DO version would be even lighter, shorter and more portable. I could see how a lot of people would be interested in a sub-7lb 800mm lens that (might) fit in airplane overhead storage. It might actually make the 800mm f5.6 useful because, as it stands now, I can't see any reason why anyone would shell out that kind of money when the 600mm with a 1.4 TC is just as good (if not better)with more flexibility and a bit more reach. Making the 800mm significantly more portable would give it a reason to exist.
 
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Pitbullo said:
It may be a stupid question, but what is DO design compared to non-DO?

Its pretty easy to google this, the subject is pretty difficult to explain in detail. Canon's recent DO patent used in the new 400mm DO uses two DO surfaces which are bonded to regular lens elements and placed very close together. It works better than the traditional DO method of designing a lens.

Basically, Diffractive Optical lenses can successfully bend light more sharply than glass lenses. This means a lens can be made shorter. A shorter lens weighs less. Diameter is not going to become smaller, it might even get larger. This is a over simplification, but you get the general idea.
 
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An 800mm f5.6 will still require a 6" diameter objective lens, so this will still be a large lens overall. The main advantage will be in shorter overall length, with some nominal weight savings (perhaps 2 lbs over the current 800, so this lens might be in the neighborhood of 8 lbs).

For sure this 2 pounds weight savings will come at a high cost!
 
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Mt Spokane Photography said:
Pitbullo said:
It may be a stupid question, but what is DO design compared to non-DO?

Its pretty easy to google this, the subject is pretty difficult to explain in detail. Canon's recent DO patent used in the new 400mm DO uses two DO surfaces which are bonded to regular lens elements and placed very close together. It works better than the traditional DO method of designing a lens.

Basically, Diffractive Optical lenses can successfully bend light more sharply than glass lenses. This means a lens can be made shorter. A shorter lens weighs less. Diameter is not going to become smaller, it might even get larger. This is a over simplification, but you get the general idea.

Something worth noting is that the thing about diffractive optics that makes it especially appealing to use at long focal lengths has as much to do with its inverted dispersion characteristics, and not merely its refractive power.

What I mean by this is that yes, a diffractive lens element can achieve greater weight reduction for a given refractive power, much in the way that a Fresnel lens element is less massive than an equivalent smooth convex lens of the same material. This facilitates the placement of a diffractive element with higher net refractive power in the optical path without requiring a lens of higher curvature.

But if this were the only part of the story, then why not simply use a material with higher refractive index? The answer is because of the adverse effect on dispersion, which typically increases with refractive index, and becomes increasingly hard to control as a function of focal length.

Dispersion, as one may recall, is the variation of refractive index as a function of wavelength. A lens with high dispersion will exhibit a greater difference in the angle of refraction of red light compared to violet light; whereas a lens with low dispersion will show a smaller difference. The creation of a rainbow by refracting white light through a prism is the dispersion phenomenon in effect.

Dispersion obviously creates problems for panchromatic lens design because the difference in refractive indices will result in chromatic aberration, which can be broadly classified into two coexisting types:

Axial: the plane of sharpest focus varies with wavelength.
Lateral: the focal length (image magnification) varies with wavelength.

In practice, every properly designed lens exhibits some combination of the two simultaneously. In lenses with particularly fast apertures, axial color predominates because the depth of field is so small, allowing the observer to see the effect (which is why it disappears when stopped down). But in lenses with long focal lengths, the latter predominates, and it is independent of f-number.

The correction of dispersion is accomplished by using glass of different refractive indices in different power combinations, thus allowing the partial compensation at the extremes of the spectrum. Further correction (apochromatic design) is accomplished by introducing materials with anomalous dispersion--in particular, fluorite, which not only has low dispersion, but its distribution of dispersion is different than other glasses (a detailed explanation is available for those who are interested).

However, the problem with fluorite is that the refractive power is low. So you'd have to use a lot of it--which is expensive--to achieve good correction for long focal lengths, which is why the EF 800/5.6L IS was designed with two large-diameter fluorite elements.

So back to DO. Why use DO? The reason is that while most glass (and fluorite) have dispersion characteristics such that index of refraction decreases with increasing wavelength (red light is bent less than violet), a DO lens is the reverse: red light is bent MORE than violet. This is a gift: because of this inversion, a DO lens can be simultaneously used to increase refractive power (shortening the barrel and reducing element mass), but it also facilitates this to the benefit of correcting CA. You end up using less fluorite (see the EF 400/4L DO IS design), and yet you get apochromatic performance. It's a win-win.

Well, not really. Nothing in lens design comes for free. The problem with DO is that manufacturing tolerances have to be extraordinarily tight, and even then, there is increased potential for reduced contrast and increased flare. Canon, to their credit, has done a remarkable job of mitigating these downsides through refinements in their manufacturing processes. But DO is always going to be a more expensive technology compared to traditional glass.

Anyway, that is the super-long, most-of-the-gory-details explanation. It's a combination of dispersion and refractive power that comprises the appeal of diffractive optics. It's almost uniquely suited to long focal length designs.
 
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