Canon EOS 5D Mark IV Talk [CR1]

[keithcooper]

Why even post it? If you KNOW it's not reliable, why post it? Northlight is never correct. Ever. I don't get it.

Years ago, before CR, Northlight actually used to have a great track record. Often getting things well hinted at even years before release with their roadmap leaks.

Granted the times have changed.

They have indeed - the quality of rumours in general just isn't what it used to be. It's very rare that anything turns up more than a few months out that's much more than a guess.

The people who used to send the useful stuff just stopped hearing it. Canon in particular clamped down on information distribution internally.

Perhaps I should put the intro to the main Canon page in bigger type ;-)

Please do use your common sense when reading these pages, and remember that they are here for entertainment as much as anything else. Remember that rumour accuracy plummets once you are more than a few months from any 'announcement'.

 

[davidj]

24MP is a APS-H (1.26x) crop of 38MP. i.e. the same field of view as the 1D series had.

However...

If Canon are lining up a "32" MP camera, maybe Canon is trying to develop something that can do in-cameara 8k?

8K might be ~32 MP, but that's not with a 3:2 aspect ratio. From another thread:

8k = 8192 pixels wide
With a 3:2 format sensor it will be 8192 by 5462 pixels, so you need a 44.7mp sensor for 8k
Even if it’s not true 8k but only 8k UHD it will be 7680 by 5120 and that is 39.3mp

 

[davidj]

24MP is a APS-H (1.26x) crop of 38MP. i.e. the same field of view as the 1D series had.

However...

If Canon are lining up a "32" MP camera, maybe Canon is trying to develop something that can do in-cameara 8k?

8K might be ~32 MP, but that's not with a 3:2 aspect ratio. From another thread:

8k = 8192 pixels wide
With a 3:2 format sensor it will be 8192 by 5462 pixels, so you need a 44.7mp sensor for 8k
Even if it’s not true 8k but only 8k UHD it will be 7680 by 5120 and that is 39.3mp

Uh. Video format sizes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4K_resolution
* The DCI 4K resolution standard, which has a resolution of 4096 x 2160 pixels
* UHD-1 ... 3840 x 2160 (2160p)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8K_resolution

* 8K UHD is a resolution of 7680 × 4320 (33.2 megapixels)

Except a still camera will have a 3:2 sensor, not a 16:9 one.

 

[mistaspeedy]

Just to clarify the video sizes... there are two main standards and the terms and often incorrectly used or wrongly interchanged.

"4K" can have two different meanings, which is why, by itself, is not enough information.

"4K UHD" is the consumer format... this is the resolution of consumer TVs and the new consumer '4K' bluray standard.

"4K DCI" is the "Digital Cinema Initiatives" professional standard for cinema.


So we have the consumer standards in a 16:9 aspect ratio:

Full HD (FHD) = 1920 x 1080
4K Ultra HD (UHD) = 3840 x 2160
8K UHD = 7680 x 4320

Then we have the professional DCI "Digital Cinema Initiatives" standards, which are usually defined in the slightly wider 1.89:1 (17:9) aspect ratio:

2K DCI = 2048×1080
4K DCI = 4096 × 2160
8K DCI = 8192 x 4320

 

[Maiaibing]

Coincidentally, the best rumour we've got for the 5D IV so far is that it's going to be 24 MP and do 7 FPS.

Please share your rumor-evaluator model!

So far I've seen nothing that qualifies beyond speculative guessing extrapolated from existing Canon models.

I'd take a bet on >24 MPIX. 32 MPIX actually sounds likely to me. Still hoping for 36 MPIX.

I base this on two facts: 1) Canon's disclosure that their market research shows they underestimated customer's wish to have higher MPIX bodies. 2) Canon's statement that they want to make fewer models with larger jumps in specifications.

While I'm extremely pleased with my own 5DSR there is ample room in the market for a mainstream 32-36 MPIX 5DIV as long as it comes with other "goodies" such as much improved high iso, better video options, better DR, higher fps, flip-screen, gps/wifi - and what else people seem to be missing from the 5DS/R.

 

[Maximilian]

Hi dilbert!

Maybe you're right, maybe wrong. Time will tell. And I see it like that:

But in all seriousness, how well does anyone think a 24MP 5DIV would be received by reviewers?

I suppose Canon is more interested in how this camera body is received by the people it is aimed for.
I haven't seen a wedding photographer or photo journalist complaining over to few pixels yet.

Canon would look like d**ks if they brought out a 24MP 5DIV and tried to sell it for $3500.

And the reviewers will look like [whateveryoulike] if they call that body crap and it still sells like hot cakes.
Time will tell...

 

[Luds34]

I hope it is just 24Mp...

+1

Of course since the 6D is more my speed hopefully this means the 6D will come in at 24mp.

 

[digital paradise]

I have had two bodies for about 7 years now and I don't really need a 2nd one anymore. I'm tired of carrying two when I travel. I sold my 5D3 and still have my 7D2 which I really like and I can shoot with for a long time. The idea was to get a 1DX II then sell the 7D2. They don't give those away and I have never been a big fan of grips but I'll adjust if I have to.

Since I'm not in a hurry I will wait for the official 5D4 announcement. Typically the AF systems between the 5D and 1D are pretty similar. There were many Canon blogs included both the 1DX and 5D3. Not that the 5D3 AF was bad. It was very good but I expect the 5D4 to be better. People are reporting the 1DX II has improved AF. Add anti flicker that my 7D2 has is a very good improvement.

The kicker will be megapixels and FPS. 24 probably a given which will be OK but I'll take 28 or 32. I don't need 14 FPS. The 5D4 is rumoured at 7. Only 1 more than the 5D3 so 8 would be better. We will see.

 

[pierlux]

I hadn't noticed it was Northlight. Now I am relieved. The rumor is below CR0 ;D

Why even post it? If you KNOW it's not reliable, why post it? Northlight is never correct. Ever. I don't get it.

Years ago, before CR, Northlight actually used to have a great track record. Often getting things well hinted at even years before release with their roadmap leaks.

Granted the times have changed.

Hey, stop throwing mud at Northlight. It's a nice and respectable site, regarding rumors it's neither less nor more correct than any other rumor site as long as Canon stuff is concerned. Sony's, Nikon's, Fujifilm's and others' marketing stategies are usually less bulletproof and more predictable than Canon's. Life is easier at nikon-, 43-, s o n y a l p h a-, fuji- etc.- Rumors. ;D

On a side note, the rumors section is only part of what Northlight offers. Great articles, tutorials and reviews. Plus, they're based in Leicester, so this year they are WINNERS! Should the magic atmosphere expand from sport to photography-related stuff, I'd suggest Keith to invent some incredible rumor on the 5D Mark IV (28 MP @ 9 fps, dual Digic 7, 16 stop DR from ISO 100 to 102,400 and 8K video) and it may even come true, this year everything is possible in Leicester! 8)



Seriously, 32 MP is very highly unlikely. Do you really see the burst speed of the single Digic, all-rounder 5D IV drop to 4 fps? And what about the fishy “32mp with 24mp mode” statement? This rumor is BS, IMO.

 

[unfocused]

Years ago, before CR, Northlight actually used to have a great track record. Often getting things well hinted at even years before release with their roadmap leaks.

Granted the times have changed.

Hey, stop throwing mud at Northlight. It's a nice and respectable site, regarding rumors it's neither less nor more correct than any other rumor site as long as Canon stuff is concerned...

The quality of rumors at all sites, including this one, has dropped significantly in the time I have been a reader. I think several things are going on:

1) Canon (and possibly other manufacturers) have tightened security;

2) The digital camera market has matured, meaning new developments are less frequent and more incremental, leaving less to write about;

3) The popularity and proliferation of rumors sites has generated more "sources" who like to see their made-up "tips" in print;

4) The authors at many of these sites have no real interest in undertaking the kind of investigative journalism needed to truly uncover insider information, but instead just sit back and let "sources" feed them garbage, which they print because it generates web traffic and revenues. In turn, other sites repeat the same misinformation because they also need to "feed the beast" and don't want to forgo traffic to their sites. (Note: I am not critical of Northlight. In Keith Cooper's case the "rumor" portion of his site is actually a very small sideline to his regular site and photography business.)

In my experience, PhotoRumors seems to be the best site for actually getting reliable information and in fact often scoops this site.

Seriously, 32 MP is very highly unlikely. Do you really see the burst speed of the single Digic, all-rounder 5D IV drop to 4 fps? And what about the fishy “32mp with 24mp mode” statement? This rumor is BS, IMO.

Agreed. I believe 24 mp is still the most likely number.

 

[ahsanford]

On a side note, the rumors section is only part of what Northlight offers. Great articles, tutorials and reviews. Plus, they're based in Leicester, so this year they are WINNERS! Should the magic atmosphere expand from sport to photography-related stuff, I'd suggest Keith to invent some incredible rumor on the 5D Mark IV (28 MP @ 9 fps, dual Digic 7, 16 stop DR from ISO 100 to 102,400 and 8K video) and it may even come true, this year everything is possible in Leicester! 8)

Jamie Vardy approves this post. I hear he also prefers fewer, more sensitive pixels.

- A

 

[keithcooper]

The quality of rumors at all sites, including this one, has dropped significantly in the time I have been a reader. I think several things are going on:

1) Canon (and possibly other manufacturers) have tightened security;

2) The digital camera market has matured, meaning new developments are less frequent and more incremental, leaving less to write about;

3) The popularity and proliferation of rumors sites has generated more "sources" who like to see their made-up "tips" in print;

4) The authors at many of these sites have no real interest in undertaking the kind of investigative journalism needed to truly uncover insider information, but instead just sit back and let "sources" feed them garbage, which they print because it generates web traffic and revenues. In turn, other sites repeat the same misinformation because they also need to "feed the beast" and don't want to forgo traffic to their sites. (Note: I am not critical of Northlight. In Keith Cooper's case the "rumor" portion of his site is actually a very small sideline to his regular site and photography business.)

In my experience, PhotoRumors seems to be the best site for actually getting reliable information and in fact often scoops this site.

1, 2 and 3 most definitely - several times I've thought of gently retiring the rumours, but they will still be there when I finally get the re-written version of the site live. I try and include stuff I find interesting, like patents as well as the patently unlikely...

As to 'investigation' (4) I did originally think of looking further but realised it was a huge task.

There is also the fact that I work with various companies (usually under NDA) so I can't really start enquiring and publishing too much. I had a call this morning from Canon UK who are going to be sending me a pre-release PRO-2000 printer to test in a few weeks - I hope to have the PRO-1000 review finished this weekend...

Thanks to all those who commented on what the site is -really- about

Here's one from before the crowds arrived (it's a short walk from where I live).

There's no rumour I've published where I'd give as long odds to it being true as to LCFC winning the league last summer

 

[ahsanford]

But I have to reiterate my original question: Why does a 5DS or a 7D2 get two DIGIC chips and 5D3/5D4 only gets one?

I'm not whining nearly so much as being curious. Just spitballing some reasons:

[list type=decimal]
[*]The (presumed) higher quality video that the 5D line records requires dedicated hardware that would make a second DIGIC chip problematic to fit in the housing, supply power to, etc.


[*]The 5D4's market identity will change relative to the 5D3 -- perhaps it will be a 'video first / stills second' sort of rig where stills fps are deprioritized and a second chip isn't needed.


[*]In the 5D4 design tradeoff of being (a) sexier than the 5D3 'enough' to get people to upgrade, yet (b) not sexy enough to steal 1D sales, Canon believes it can squeeze enough performance out of one chip at something like (as a hypothetical) 24 MP X 7 fps. The fear being that a (who knows?) 28 MP x 10 fps throughput that a second chip might enable will drive shutter/mirror costs too high or will steal some 1D sales.


[*]Battery life takes a hit with two chips, right? (But surely most folks would gladly take +3-4 fps for a 20% battery hit...) This can't be the main reason, can it?

[/list]

Candidly, #2 is nuts and #4 seems a reach (as a primary reason), so I'm looking for some technical read to back up #1 or perhaps we should call this what it is -- Canon will nerf the 5D4 because they feel like it, they can get away with it, etc.

- A

 

[unfocused]

As to 'investigation' (4) I did originally think of looking further but realised it was a huge task.

There is also the fact that I work with various companies (usually under NDA) so I can't really start enquiring and publishing too much.

Keith,

I hope you didn't think I was critical of you for not being more "investigative."

As I said, that's not your primary business or even the primary purpose of your site. I completely understand that.

My criticism is aimed at the proliferation of sites that have sprung up over the past few years, which are basically just "fan" sites disguised as "insider information" sites meant to attract readers by printing anything they come across without using any sort of discretion or doing any real work.

True journalism takes time and resources. I wish that someone would actually take it seriously and do genuine and serious reporting of the photography industry. But, this is true with most business reporting, and not just photography.

I actually hadn't thought about the conflict with NDAs that you mention, but I can certainly see how that would create a problem.

I appreciate your candor and your willingness to engage.

 

[jeffa4444]

Keith the whole of Britain regardless of what team they support like the Leicester City story this season it certainly turned the big four on their heads.

 

[ahsanford]

Keith the whole of Britain regardless of what team they support like the Leicester City story this season it certainly turned the big four on their heads.

How can you not? Movies will be made about this season. It's that simple. A team worth one fifth of the best teams won the league going away. Greatest sports story in my lifetime by a large, large margin.

Closest analogy for Americans would be the 1980 Miracle on Ice carried out over an entire professional season, a 14th/15th/16th seed in the NCAA tourney winning it all, or a minor league baseball team (somehow) winning the World Series. It simply does not happen.

So, in that way, anyone who follows soccer/football is a Foxes fan this year.

- A

 

[jeffa4444]

Any publicity is good publicity if it means your clients are passionate about your brand and want it to succeed. Canon want like any well run company to maximise their impact when they launch a product and drip feeding information dilutes that impact its no different at say Apple who have their special launch events and always try to pull rabbits out of the hat.
Equally the speculation generated on sites like this can be aggregated to see what are the common points people want to see and how do they fit with the project / product planning after all their is no point building something no one will buy or upgrade to.
I dont see Canon narrowing the product mix as niche products if based off common components can drive incremental revenues which is why we saw the 5DS / 5DS r which are 5D MKIII camera clones. If Canon move up the 6D then they could still have room under it for a further FF camera this would add not deminish the product line and Im sure Canon ponder all the variables.

 

[pierlux]

...
Thanks to all those who commented on what the site is -really- about
...

You're welcome!

Odd to say this on Canon Rumors, but... thanks are due to you, Northlight Images is a great resource. I'm sure the majority of CR readers already know, but for those who don't I'd recommend taking a few minutes and have a peek, you won't regret.

 

[Maximilian]

Hi dilbert!

Maybe you're right, maybe wrong. Time will tell. And I see it like that:

But in all seriousness, how well does anyone think a 24MP 5DIV would be received by reviewers?

I suppose Canon is more interested in how this camera body is received by the people it is aimed for.
I haven't seen a wedding photographer or photo journalist complaining over to few pixels yet.

But they never complain about too many either

I've heard from some that complained about their workflow becoming to slow.

Batman vs Superman was caned by the critics and made "only" $862 million because lots of people went and saw it.

Just because it made a lot of money does not make it a good movie - just something popular. Donald Trump is the most popular Republican candidate. Olive Garden is the most popular restaurant. The F-150 is the most popular car (or truck.)

Don't equate popularity (and therefore sales) with quality.

Really good analogy! Thank you for that.
Because Canon does not want to just make the "best" camera in the world - whatever that means,
but the best selling (!!!) camera in the world, with the best profit.

Hollywood doesn't care about the "Palme d'or de Cannes" (right now!). They care about making money whatever trash or good movie it takes. And if they get an "Oscar" in the end nobody complains.

So what do you expect Canon to deliver? A Woody Allen or Michael Haneke movie?

 

[GuyF]

Has anyone mentioned the built-in ND filter the 5D4 will have for video (not for stills)?