Canon EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R Press Release

[Arkarch]

Re: Canon EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R Press Release

The sony was just a painful camera to use. The evf is very hard to use as it isn't very detailed- i.e., you can't see the expression of someone you are shooting if they further back full length from the camera. The evf also lags badly and smudges when its dark.

I rented a Sony A7R to complement my 5D3 during a two-week fall trip last year. While I loved the 36MP and better DR; the EVF was unusable for careful filter and compositional work. Its really bad when yellow aspens look green in the viewfinder, let alone try to figure out the placement of a ND Grad. Focus Peaking was nice however. My takeaway after two weeks - the A7R would be a fine alternate camera back - work and composite with the 5D, then replace with the A7R. Had Canon not announced a high MP, that would have been my 2015 strategy. But thankfully the 5DS is here so I can work everything out in the primary.

Now this is not a slam on Mirrorless... The A7R is a breakthrough camera. I just think EVF technology needs to improve.

For me personally, I think I will long-term be a DSLR guy - I see better than 20/20 at long (not so good close with contacts), so I want to keep that viewing advantage while I still have it.

This doesn't make any sense to me.

Why does color matter through the viewfinder if shooting RAW? You shoot RAW right?

How on Earth is it hard to place filters using the EVF? I use my Live View LCD for this very specific reason. Why is an EVF different? Why can't you use the rear LCD?

The word "unusable" brings images in my mind of people in infomercials who fall off a cliff when trying to eat their morning cereal with a regular spoon. Or can't open a cabinet without ripping the door off and having the house fall down.

I'm only being partially snarky, as I have not used the EVF in the A7, but I've used enough of them to question what you are having issues with? Just curious.

For composition, knowing where the yellow, orange, and green aspens are is helpful. Yes, that is a narrow example, but what I am saying is - the A7R EVF is not an accurate representation of the scene.

As for ND Grad filters, I can see the change in exposure through the 5D3 viewfinder. I can not discriminate as well with 5D3 Live View (especially a soft 0.3) - I always go back to the viewfinder for that final lineup.

Beyond that, your own personal experience and those of others may help evaluate your usability of the EVF. And I do put in the caveat that I see better long, so that may be part of my own experience.

(yes, I shoot RAW. I also have 10-bit/channel calibrated workflow; and do extensive color harmony - but it all starts at the source, and color does impact composition)

 

[paulrossjones]

Re: Canon EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R Press Release

The sony was just a painful camera to use. The evf is very hard to use as it isn't very detailed- i.e., you can't see the expression of someone you are shooting if they further back full length from the camera. The evf also lags badly and smudges when its dark.

I rented a Sony A7R to complement my 5D3 during a two-week fall trip last year. While I loved the 36MP and better DR; the EVF was unusable for careful filter and compositional work. Its really bad when yellow aspens look green in the viewfinder, let alone try to figure out the placement of a ND Grad. Focus Peaking was nice however. My takeaway after two weeks - the A7R would be a fine alternate camera back - work and composite with the 5D, then replace with the A7R. Had Canon not announced a high MP, that would have been my 2015 strategy. But thankfully the 5DS is here so I can work everything out in the primary.

Now this is not a slam on Mirrorless... The A7R is a breakthrough camera. I just think EVF technology needs to improve.

For me personally, I think I will long-term be a DSLR guy - I see better than 20/20 at long (not so good close with contacts), so I want to keep that viewing advantage while I still have it.

This doesn't make any sense to me.

Why does color matter through the viewfinder if shooting RAW? You shoot RAW right?

How on Earth is it hard to place filters using the EVF? I use my Live View LCD for this very specific reason. Why is an EVF different? Why can't you use the rear LCD?

The word "unusable" brings images in my mind of people in infomercials who fall off a cliff when trying to eat their morning cereal with a regular spoon. Or can't open a cabinet without ripping the door off and having the house fall down.

I'm only being partially snarky, as I have not used the EVF in the A7, but I've used enough of them to question what you are having issues with? Just curious.

Unusable is completely accurate when you are shooting a advertisement and the person is very small in frame and you are trying to catch certain expressions. I guess you can look over the camera with your eyes, but that defeats the use of the EVF. I tried really hard to shoot a girl running through the woods for an advertisement and I just couldn't see what I was doing with the A7R, it was like looking at a old VHS video , delayed and smudged.

Of cause RAW is used! The colour is off with nikons, it can be fixed, but it is more work. Theres a weird green tone in the skin tones that tricky to fix. The canon skin tone are far better straight out of camera. All my retouchers have said this as well.

My post is based on shooting the sony A7R, the d800, the 810 and the canon 5dmk3 all together and alternating for a few months. I did own all of these cameras for a time (although i have sold the nikons now).

I do believe EVF's are the future, but they really aren't there yet! This is probably why arri has released a optical viewfinder alexa- i have heard all the complaints about EVF's from many DP's I have worked beside.

paul

 

[RLPhoto]

Re: Canon EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R Press Release

The jury is still out for DR and low ISO noise, so we´ll have to wait a bit longer for that. But what I have seen looks very positive and very close to what I have been waiting for.

Ergonimics unchanged and still best in the business.

A well damped and quiet mirror is good news. The consequence is a lower max fps, also for the crop modes, than some seem to want. But personally, for this camera, 5fps will be plenty for me. And it is pretty obvious that such a design will be a limiting factor on how fast it can get.

No mention of support for other focusing screens, where my interest is to have a high precision screen for my fast manual focus primes. I hope they don´t repeat the poor (non-existent) support on the 5DIII. And for a camera like this, they should accommodate the use of high quality manual focus lenses.

Video functionality is of no interest to me. I would be glad to have a mode where I could remove all video functionality and have all menus fully focused on photography.

WiFi would have been nice, but not something I worry about. Neither is GPS.

Still wondering how good/bad high ISO will be, but that is less important. I´ll be waiting for the new 1DX2 for that, improved AF and high fps.

Built in radio control for flashes would have been nice, but I already have what I need, so I can live with not having that. 1/200s sync is a bit disappointing, but no surprise. Having HSS helps.

The Jury is still out on that AF-point Linked Spot metering. So Useful, So underrated.

Edit: I Also noticed the rear of the camera doesn't have the nice new Lever of the 7D2. So perhaps this body was in development for along time and just kept basically the 5D3 and stuck a new sensor in.

 

[Marsu42]

Re: Canon EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R Press Release

Ohhhhh! They said the magic words!!!! ISO 100-6400 sensitivity, further expandable to 50-12800, ensuring high quality images with low noise, accurate colours and wide dynamic range.

Not specifying the exact dr isn't a good sign, it's not like they're shy to throw around numeric spec data in this press release in other areas :-\ ... on the other hand it's strange that they mention it at all if they don't have something to show.

 

[mackguyver]

Re: Canon EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R Press Release

Ohhhhh! They said the magic words!!!! ISO 100-6400 sensitivity, further expandable to 50-12800, ensuring high quality images with low noise, accurate colours and wide dynamic range.

Not specifying the exact dr isn't a good sign, it's not like they're shy to throw around numeric spec data in this press release in other areas :-\ ... on the other hand it's strange that they mention it at all if they don't have something to show.

That was my thought, too. All of Canon's current cameras have low noise, accurate colors, and wide dynamic range - compared to film, older cameras, etc.. Compared to SoNikon SoPentax, etc., maybe not so much, but Canon doesn't specify.

 

[wockawocka]

Re: Canon EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R Press Release

Within three days of release, you'll know all about the ISO noise and DR.

If it's really great Canon will have some raws ready on announcement.

 

[PhotographyFirst]

Re: Canon EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R Press Release

Ohhhhh! They said the magic words!!!! ISO 100-6400 sensitivity, further expandable to 50-12800, ensuring high quality images with low noise, accurate colours and wide dynamic range.

Not specifying the exact dr isn't a good sign, it's not like they're shy to throw around numeric spec data in this press release in other areas :-\ ... on the other hand it's strange that they mention it at all if they don't have something to show.

True. Canon has touted their DR horn like crazy when they were the market leader in DR.

 

[Eldar]

Re: Canon EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R Press Release

The jury is still out for DR and low ISO noise, so we´ll have to wait a bit longer for that. But what I have seen looks very positive and very close to what I have been waiting for.

Ergonimics unchanged and still best in the business.

A well damped and quiet mirror is good news. The consequence is a lower max fps, also for the crop modes, than some seem to want. But personally, for this camera, 5fps will be plenty for me. And it is pretty obvious that such a design will be a limiting factor on how fast it can get.

No mention of support for other focusing screens, where my interest is to have a high precision screen for my fast manual focus primes. I hope they don´t repeat the poor (non-existent) support on the 5DIII. And for a camera like this, they should accommodate the use of high quality manual focus lenses.

Video functionality is of no interest to me. I would be glad to have a mode where I could remove all video functionality and have all menus fully focused on photography.

WiFi would have been nice, but not something I worry about. Neither is GPS.

Still wondering how good/bad high ISO will be, but that is less important. I´ll be waiting for the new 1DX2 for that, improved AF and high fps.

Built in radio control for flashes would have been nice, but I already have what I need, so I can live with not having that. 1/200s sync is a bit disappointing, but no surprise. Having HSS helps.

The Jury is still out on that AF-point Linked Spot metering. So Useful, So underrated.

Edit: I Also noticed the rear of the camera doesn't have the nice new Lever of the 7D2. So perhaps this body was in development for along time and just kept basically the 5D3 and stuck a new sensor in.

Agree. AF-point linked spot metering is very useful. I suspect the 7DII lever is saved for the 5DIV.

 

[PhotographyFirst]

Re: Canon EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R Press Release

The jury is still out for DR and low ISO noise, so we´ll have to wait a bit longer for that. But what I have seen looks very positive and very close to what I have been waiting for.

Ergonimics unchanged and still best in the business.

A well damped and quiet mirror is good news. The consequence is a lower max fps, also for the crop modes, than some seem to want. But personally, for this camera, 5fps will be plenty for me. And it is pretty obvious that such a design will be a limiting factor on how fast it can get.

No mention of support for other focusing screens, where my interest is to have a high precision screen for my fast manual focus primes. I hope they don´t repeat the poor (non-existent) support on the 5DIII. And for a camera like this, they should accommodate the use of high quality manual focus lenses.

Video functionality is of no interest to me. I would be glad to have a mode where I could remove all video functionality and have all menus fully focused on photography.

WiFi would have been nice, but not something I worry about. Neither is GPS.

Still wondering how good/bad high ISO will be, but that is less important. I´ll be waiting for the new 1DX2 for that, improved AF and high fps.

Built in radio control for flashes would have been nice, but I already have what I need, so I can live with not having that. 1/200s sync is a bit disappointing, but no surprise. Having HSS helps.

The Jury is still out on that AF-point Linked Spot metering. So Useful, So underrated.

Edit: I Also noticed the rear of the camera doesn't have the nice new Lever of the 7D2. So perhaps this body was in development for along time and just kept basically the 5D3 and stuck a new sensor in.

Agree. AF-point linked spot metering is very useful. I suspect the 7DII lever is saved for the 5DIV.

I mentioned it before on this forum, but what about this feature? Maybe magic lantern could make it.

Link the cropping and amount of cropping to the AF point and metering. The metering should be able to tell where the subject is in the frame and how large it is. The camera could then crop down to a certain sensitivity level to reduce file size and increase FPS. By knowing where the subject is, it could crop around it and not limit the photographer to just cropping the center of the image. This would be bonus for birds in flight where using crop mode put you at risk of clipping a wing or head out of the crop zone. It could also have a fail-safe that reverted to full frame if the subject is too large for cropping or too far outside the AF zone.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Re: Canon EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R Press Release

The fact that they mention dynamic range again for the first time in years and years is a quite promising sign! ;D

OTOH the fact that it appears to still be stuck at 5fps even in cropped mode while the Nikons go to 7fps is a pretty mega turn off, especially since it appears that the video will absolutely stink on it (by today's standards) and be both much less usable and with far worse IQ than 5D3 + ML video.

So it seems that Canon did, one hopes, finally move us into wide dynamic range world (although it does still remain to be proven and it might just be some big new stride at high ISO only or something) but they are still being Canon in not even being willing to put in even just a 5D3 class mirror box to at least get it to a key 6fps for action.

Fact of the matter is the Nikon cameras are a lot more all around since they can hit not only 6fps but even 7fps in cropped modes and are thus pretty fine for action and then they can drop into 36MP FF high DR for low ISO landscapes and such. The D810 is awesome for field sports action and wildlife with the decent 36MP reach and 7fps speed and then awesome for landscapes with the 36MP FF with high DR. That is a much more rounded camera overall IMO. (of course the lenses and UI are worse IMO)

This does offer more reach for wildlife than the D810, but you have to think it won't be too long before Nikon comes out with their 50MP cam with high low ISO DR and that it will hit 7fps in cropped mode.

If it had high low ISO DR and good video or high low ISO DR and became a bit of an action camera in cropped wildlife/field sports mode then you'd be talking, but it seems like it will deliver only 1 of the 3 (and the 1 is not yet a guarantee). At the very least if it does end up delivering the DR at least we know Canon is finally back in the game for sensors though and not a lost cause brand.

It still seems that Nikon will soon release a camera that will be an equal or better body in every way though. Of course it is true that the Canon lens line-up is much nicer (not a small thing by any means) and many prefer the Canon UI by a fair bit.

I'm a bit bummed that Canon had to be Canon and cripple the mirror box to sub-5D3 levels and prevent it from cranking out fps in cropped modes.

Sure the 5D4 will deliver the speed and hopefully video and DR, but then it won't have the reach for wildlife this one does.

The 7D2 has the speed and the reach but not the FF or DR for landscapes or the video.

They always have to leave one or more things out from each, even in the cases where it would've been trivial to allow for the extra thing.

With punting the video so badly on this, I thought they'd then knock every stills aspect out of the park. They may have for static stuff, but punted on the higher fps in cropped modes thing.

 

[benperrin]

Re: Canon EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R Press Release

I am a 5DM2 hold over because I never felt the 5d3 was worth spending the extra $ on. I do scenic still photography and once in a blue moon weddings (I do great weddings, just hate it). I have no interest in Video. I am not a film purist but I can see their point. This just might be the right box for the still purist.

I am frankly seeing this as a logical split between portrait/scenic and the swiss army knife approach of the 5dm3 and perhaps the 5dm4 that will do everything in one box.

I am very interested in moving to a better camera and the Nikon 810e and Sony A7 have been getting good review from scenic photographers but I am not willing to replace all my glass and start over. I knew that Canon would change and a little patience would prove prudent. I am more than ready to replace my 5DM2, having said that--I have had many incredible images with this body and do not feel that I have been short changed in the last 5 years or so. I think I will be one of the first to order or pre-order the R version.

I think I'm in the same boat as you. Looking forward to the upgrade.

 

[benperrin]

Re: Canon EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R Press Release

Not specifying the exact dr isn't a good sign, it's not like they're shy to throw around numeric spec data in this press release in other areas :-\ ... on the other hand it's strange that they mention it at all if they don't have something to show.

It's just a press release. We'll know soon enough but my money is on d810 like dynamic range. The megapixels seem to always get the marketing though. Not long till we know. This part is better than Christmas for me!

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Re: Canon EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R Press Release

" For added flexibility, the cameras’ resolution enables three new in-camera crop shooting modes–1.3x, 1.6x and 1:1. Visible through the viewfinder, the crop modes deliver outstanding results, with stills at 19 MP even when cropped to 1.6x."

Bah why no fps increase though as with Nikon? Nikon turns from a high MP landscape cam into a high-speed action/wildlife/sports cam in 1.5x mode.

The 5Ds has more than enough power to drive 1.6x at even 10fps if they wanted and even the old 5D3 mirror box re-used could have drive it at 6fps at least.

 

[bgran8]

Re: Canon EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R Press Release

No wifi, no nfc? Has anyone heard anything different? That is a great feature for landscape photography!

 

[AmbientLight]

Re: Canon EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R Press Release

Sorry, but I don't understand why some already complain about spec details. We still only know some features, but not all. Speculation about additional features is fine, but I don't see a reason for complaining before at least the entire specs have been published by Canon.

I am not even sure that press release draft is for real, like why would someone involved leak the text of the press release? Then again the text appears to be well written and if it is a fake, then at least it is a pretty good one!

 

[3kramd5]

Re: Canon EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R Press Release

Has Canon ever boasted "wide dynamic range" before in their Press Releases?

"ISO 100-6400 sensitivity, further expandable to 50-12800, ensuring high quality images with low noise, accurate colours and wide dynamic range. "

I could be wrong, but I think not for a good 8 years. So that is promising.

I wouldn't necessarily say it's indicative of anything more than the competition in the market they're targeting, which specifically mentions Dynamic Range any number of places.
http://www.nikonusa.com/en/Nikon-Products/Product/dslr-cameras/D810.html

 

[PhotographyFirst]

Re: Canon EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R Press Release

Sorry, but I don't understand why some already complain about spec details. We still only know some features, but not all. Speculation about additional features is fine, but I don't see a reason for complaining before at least the entire specs have been published by Canon.

I am not even sure that press release draft is for real, like why would someone involved leak the text of the press release? Then again the text appears to be well written and if it is a fake, then at least it is a pretty good one!

Don't walk into the slaughter house and complain about the smell.

 

[9VIII]

Re: Canon EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R Press Release

Does "Crop Mode" mean I can used my Sigma 1.8 18-35 Art lens, which was made for APS-C cameras?
Thanks.

You could already use it and just manually crop away the outer frame.

For EF-S it is a different story, some of those stick out the back and they clip a FF mirror regardless of whether the camera has a crop mode or not.

I used to do that with the 5D2.
But forget the 1.6 X crop, the new 1/1 ratio crop is ideal for the 18-35f1.8, you just get dark corners and the rest of the image is pretty decent.
it shoots best at 22mm-24mm on full frame, otherwise the barrel and pincushion distortion are pretty bad, but that's not really so terrible since you probably want wide angles if you're using this on full frame anyway.
The 1.3x crop is going to be really interesting as well.

 

[Jamesy]

Re: Canon EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R Press Release

To Dtheune Re:Crop mode:
No, I would not use any APS-C lenses on FF cameras without checking on mirror clearance. Canon lens designers are "allowed" (by Canon policy) to use that extra space in the mirror box (smaller mirror on APS-C camera) to allow more rearward extension of elements. Try focusing your lens not connected to the camera, watch the back of the lens for elements sticking out at extremes of the focusing range. Third party manufacturers like Sigma are likely not to allow the lens designers to use rearward extension of elements during focusing, because Nikon has that policy for lens design so as to allow Nikon APS-C-coverage lenses to be used on FF cameras (with large mirror) when those cameras are shooting in crop mode. I imagine that the designers aim to keep necessary design changes to a minimum and try to have those changes between mounts only account for camera brand flange-to-sensor distance differences. This third party design standardization would help greatly in reducing manufacturing costs.

As for using your Sigma 18-35 in crop mode on a Canon FF camera, I would contact Sigma directly to find if the lens design has enough clearance. They might not be willing to say outright that it is ok, but they should be willing to provide some measurements.

I am used to eyeballing old M42 lenses and guesstimating which are likely to be problems (hint: many wide angle retrofocal designs) when attached via adapter to my 6D. Old double gauss (fast normal, Zeiss calls the design "Planar") and telephoto designs are likely to be fine.

A buddy of mine shaved the mirror on his 5D classic years ago to accommodate some alt glass he was using but a modification like this is not for the faint of heart...

 

[jrista]

Re: Canon EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R Press Release

No mentions of expanded DR and such, so I'm sure the usual suspects will begin complaining about that. I was hoping for built-in GPS, but otherwise, all looks great to me. I wonder if the body will be the same as the 5DIII - it would be nice if I didn't have to buy a new L-plate.

Actually they did mention a new sensor design type and wide dynamic range so it seems to hint at good things. It remains to be seen of course though.

As far as I know, Canon has been calling their sensors "wide dynamic range" for a very long time:


http://www.canon.com/technology/canon_tech/explanation/35mm.html

Canon's CMOS sensors feature large size and high resolution*1 (Up to approximately 22.3 million pixels with a 35 mm full-frame CMOS sensor), excellent sensitivity (low noise), and a wide dynamic range.

Nothing new here, as far as I can tell. I'll believe the camera has more dynamic range when it's been demonstrated through actual testing to have more dynamic range. Been burned by Canon on that front (heh, same as you, saw "wide dynamic range" used in one of Canon's 1D X pages back when it was first announced) too many times to trus they have done anything on that front.