Canon EOS 6D Mark II Talk [CR1]
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Loswr
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dilbert said:
You can't really blame newbies who come in and make egregiously ridiculous statements without a shred of fact knowledge to support them, then refuse to admit they were wrong. After all, they're just following the behavior pattern of someone with 6000 posts.
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Loswr
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douglaurent said:
It is funny when people ignore the realities of business and the drivers thereof, and defend their own opinion as if it actually meant anything to a large corporation.
It is funny when people demand a set of features – and have been doing so for years – without bothering to consider the business reasons their desires are ignored.
It is funny when those people become so frustrated they are reduced to shouting to try and get their points across, like an imbecile standing on a soapbox.*
Meanwhile, other people have the ability to consider their wants and dissatisfaction in the larger business context. Sadly, those unwilling or unable to comprehend that business context seem to end up acting like petulant children...shouting, proclaiming doom because they and the infinitesimal number of people they know are dissatisfied, and generally sounding rather foolish.
*refrrences to current American politics are unintentional.
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There are quite a few of those around this place lately and they are rather loud and annoying. do not underestimate what pack of well fed, pestering trolls is capable of... not everyone has a time to sieve through megatons of verbal rubbish left behind by this crowd and get eventually malformed ideas about how good or how bad a system is.
Trolls are a mighty power to be reckoned and dealt with.
Trolls are a mighty power to be reckoned and dealt with.
dilbert said:
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The 6D is over four years old? Wow!! Seems like just yesterday that we were all annoyed by how the feature-set compared poorly to the 5D3 (despite being a cheaper, more accessible camera). I'm looking forward eagerly to 2017 so that we can re-hash the same arguments.
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neuroanatomist said:
Hah! I know I shouldn't be adding any fuel to the fire, but this did make me chuckle outloud.
I have no idea if this is true or not, but a man from Canada once told me the French have a saying, "If you're not good for a laugh, you're good for nothing." I'm a big believer in a little self-deprecation. Years ago in college, sitting in big lecture halls, when I'd ask a question, I'd usually preface it with something like, "I'm sure I'm the only idiot who doesn't follow, but could you explain...". Typically got a little laugh, broke the ice, made everyone feel a little more comfortable learning. So yes, don't ever take yourself too seriously, make sure you can laugh at yourself a little, makes life a lot less stressful.
Back on topic. If the new 6D is anything like I'm expecting it to be, then this will be the camera for me. I don't even need much changed/improved from the current 6D. I can work with almost all of it's limitations, lower specs, etc. I just miss being able to use Ai Servo/tracking with the framing the way I want it, aka being able to track focus on the head in the top third of the viewfinder. Fingers crossed for a 40+ point system, but even a 7D/70D 19 point system would be a godsend! I'm very happy comfortable with my collection of glass so all I'm missing is this camera.
Well, I do spend too much time on this forum so I obviously have insecurities about my 17-40L so I may try to upgrade that over the winter.
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dilbert said:
And you are one of them, but still being here complaining about it for number of years? Thought that you are already switch? If so, what is the benefit of keep complaining?
dilbert said:
Week products? You DO NOT EVEN KNOW how to compose a right image, light, or even post process your images. What makes you qualified in saying this? A year ago, you challenged me to photograph landscape. I did switch and am already in mid-level of it and still keep learning. I wonder where you are now in your desired topic.
Or you just like some others want a mirrorless from Canon? to aid you to see how your image look like before clicking your shutter? to aid you in not getting many of under and over expose images due to lack of knowing light or choosing light?
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neuroanatomist said:douglaurent said:
It is funny when people ignore the realities of business and the drivers thereof, and defend their own opinion as if it actually meant anything to a large corporation.
It is funny when people demand a set of features – and have been doing so for years – without bothering to consider the business reasons their desires are ignored.
It is funny when those people become so frustrated they are reduced to shouting to try and get their points across, like an imbecile standing on a soapbox.*
Meanwhile, other people have the ability to consider their wants and dissatisfaction in the larger business context. Sadly, those unwilling or unable to comprehend that business context seem to end up acting like petulant children...shouting, proclaiming doom because they and the infinitesimal number of people they know are dissatisfied, and generally sounding rather foolish.
*refrrences to current American politics are unintentional.
What you have to understand is that there is great value in listening to some of the anecdotes from people who actually use these products. I for one definitely want to hear what the camera can or cannot do as this forms my opinion for purchasing an alternative product or not. Likewise, I also provide reasons why I will purchase a product or why not based on my experiences with working with many different systems. Not all of us are armchair quarterbacks, and some of us actually live and breathe this stuff everyday.
When you consistently play the market share and/or business acumen card, it grows weary because it does not add much value to this dialogue other than "I don't really have to argue with you because the company knows best and you should kneel.." This is great for forum fodder, but not much value otherwise.
You don't have to validate dissenting opinions, but to accept that it exists, gauge that trend and determine when you may want to act upon that information.
Think of this way, if Canon in 5 years reached market share parity with Nikon and Sony like Toyota has with VW and GM, will that extra 1.5% market share held by shooters like myself be relevant and what card will you play at that point?
Food for thought..
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jayphotoworks said:
There is great value in getting information from folks who actually use the products. That is by far the best information. Which is why many of us are increasingly frustrated by users who continually promote and push products (Sony for the most part) that they have never used. If all you have ever done is read spec sheets and form your opinion based on those and internet reviews, then your opinion is not really wanted or appreciated. I understand that we live in the "twitter and social media era" - where uninformed and even completely ignorant opinions are dished out constantly, but it would be tremendously beneficial to all CR users and visitors if each poster tells us if their comments are based on personal experience or not.
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Loswr
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jayphotoworks said:neuroanatomist said:douglaurent said:
It is funny when people ignore the realities of business and the drivers thereof, and defend their own opinion as if it actually meant anything to a large corporation.
It is funny when people demand a set of features – and have been doing so for years – without bothering to consider the business reasons their desires are ignored.
It is funny when those people become so frustrated they are reduced to shouting to try and get their points across, like an imbecile standing on a soapbox.*
Meanwhile, other people have the ability to consider their wants and dissatisfaction in the larger business context. Sadly, those unwilling or unable to comprehend that business context seem to end up acting like petulant children...shouting, proclaiming doom because they and the infinitesimal number of people they know are dissatisfied, and generally sounding rather foolish.
*refrrences to current American politics are unintentional.
What you have to understand is that there is great value in listening to some of the anecdotes from people who actually use these products. I for one definitely want to hear what the camera can or cannot do as this forms my opinion for purchasing an alternative product or not. Likewise, I also provide reasons why I will purchase a product or why not based on my experiences with working with many different systems. Not all of us are armchair quarterbacks, and some of us actually live and breathe this stuff everyday.
When you consistently play the market share and/or business acumen card, it grows weary because it does not add much value to this dialogue other than "I don't really have to argue with you because the company knows best and you should kneel.." This is great for forum fodder, but not much value otherwise.
You don't have to validate dissenting opinions, but to accept that it exists, gauge that trend and determine when you may want to act upon that information.
Think of this way, if Canon in 5 years reached market share parity with Nikon and Sony like Toyota has with VW and GM, will that extra 1.5% market share held by shooters like myself be relevant and what card will you play at that point?
Food for thought..
I thoroughly understand the value of anecdotes, particularly my own anecdotal experiences.
What you should understand is that anecdotes ≠ data. If someone shares an anecdote in the context of how a feature (or lack thereof) impacts their workflow, that has relevance to them and perhaps to others with a similar workflow. That's a basis for discussion and for learning. All good.
But...when they extrapolate from 'this issue affects me' to 'this issue affects lots of people' or 'this issue affects everyone', they are pretending their own anecdotal experience is actually data...but it is not. When they then further extrapolate (as they often do) to 'this is really a problem for Canon' or 'everyone will switch to Sony and Canon is doomed'...that's when they need to be slapped hard in the face with reality. Reality, in this case, is that Canon knows a lot more about the needs and wants of their user base, and has actual data to back up their conclusions and actions.
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dak723 said:
Personally I use Canon, Sony, Nikon and Pansonic products depending on the situation, and write about what could be improved in all of these forums. Like in the Sony forum about the confusing Sony menus, which Sony could make better by just using the free menu registration system of Canon - while Canon could implement the unlimited button assignment that most Sony cameras have.
The current frustration with Canon is just that the wish list got a little bit too long compared to the other brands, while Canon is the brand that I historically would always prefer to use first. This frustration can be read all over the net, and can be heard when talking to people who experienced the differences as well.
As far as I hear it, Canon dealers and local Canon distributors are also not happy and have to live with more and more regulations and worse conditions through decisions made in Japan. But of course that's not on the net because no employee can or will openly talk or write about that. There are also signs that since the A7RII Canon is worried by the performance of Sony, while for decades they only had to care about the smaller Nikon brother. There never will be scientific facts or polls about all of this.
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jayphotoworks said:neuroanatomist said:douglaurent said:
It is funny when people ignore the realities of business and the drivers thereof, and defend their own opinion as if it actually meant anything to a large corporation.
It is funny when people demand a set of features – and have been doing so for years – without bothering to consider the business reasons their desires are ignored.
It is funny when those people become so frustrated they are reduced to shouting to try and get their points across, like an imbecile standing on a soapbox.*
Meanwhile, other people have the ability to consider their wants and dissatisfaction in the larger business context. Sadly, those unwilling or unable to comprehend that business context seem to end up acting like petulant children...shouting, proclaiming doom because they and the infinitesimal number of people they know are dissatisfied, and generally sounding rather foolish.
*refrrences to current American politics are unintentional.
What you have to understand is that there is great value in listening to some of the anecdotes from people who actually use these products. I for one definitely want to hear what the camera can or cannot do as this forms my opinion for purchasing an alternative product or not. Likewise, I also provide reasons why I will purchase a product or why not based on my experiences with working with many different systems. Not all of us are armchair quarterbacks, and some of us actually live and breathe this stuff everyday.
When you consistently play the market share and/or business acumen card, it grows weary because it does not add much value to this dialogue other than "I don't really have to argue with you because the company knows best and you should kneel.." This is great for forum fodder, but not much value otherwise.
You don't have to validate dissenting opinions, but to accept that it exists, gauge that trend and determine when you may want to act upon that information.
Think of this way, if Canon in 5 years reached market share parity with Nikon and Sony like Toyota has with VW and GM, will that extra 1.5% market share held by shooters like myself be relevant and what card will you play at that point?
Food for thought..
It's actually quite simple and I can't believe I actually have to explain this to you but don't you know that once a company holds the largest percentage of a market share it stays that way indefinitely?
For full disclosure I am the forum moderator at kodakrumors.com.
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neuroanatomist said:jayphotoworks said:neuroanatomist said:douglaurent said:
It is funny when people ignore the realities of business and the drivers thereof, and defend their own opinion as if it actually meant anything to a large corporation.
It is funny when people demand a set of features – and have been doing so for years – without bothering to consider the business reasons their desires are ignored.
It is funny when those people become so frustrated they are reduced to shouting to try and get their points across, like an imbecile standing on a soapbox.*
Meanwhile, other people have the ability to consider their wants and dissatisfaction in the larger business context. Sadly, those unwilling or unable to comprehend that business context seem to end up acting like petulant children...shouting, proclaiming doom because they and the infinitesimal number of people they know are dissatisfied, and generally sounding rather foolish.
*refrrences to current American politics are unintentional.
What you have to understand is that there is great value in listening to some of the anecdotes from people who actually use these products. I for one definitely want to hear what the camera can or cannot do as this forms my opinion for purchasing an alternative product or not. Likewise, I also provide reasons why I will purchase a product or why not based on my experiences with working with many different systems. Not all of us are armchair quarterbacks, and some of us actually live and breathe this stuff everyday.
When you consistently play the market share and/or business acumen card, it grows weary because it does not add much value to this dialogue other than "I don't really have to argue with you because the company knows best and you should kneel.." This is great for forum fodder, but not much value otherwise.
You don't have to validate dissenting opinions, but to accept that it exists, gauge that trend and determine when you may want to act upon that information.
Think of this way, if Canon in 5 years reached market share parity with Nikon and Sony like Toyota has with VW and GM, will that extra 1.5% market share held by shooters like myself be relevant and what card will you play at that point?
Food for thought..
I thoroughly understand the value of anecdotes, particularly my own anecdotal experiences.
What you should understand is that anecdotes ≠ data. If someone shares an anecdote in the context of how a feature (or lack thereof) impacts their workflow, that has relevance to them and perhaps to others with a similar workflow. That's a basis for discussion and for learning. All good.
But...when they extrapolate from 'this issue affects me' to 'this issue affects lots of people' or 'this issue affects everyone', they are pretending their own anecdotal experience is actually data...but it is not. When they then further extrapolate (as they often do) to 'this is really a problem for Canon' or 'everyone will switch to Sony and Canon is doomed'...that's when they need to be slapped hard in the face with reality. Reality, in this case, is that Canon knows a lot more about the needs and wants of their user base, and has actual data to back up their conclusions and actions.
Looking at all experiences of this millennium regarding large corporations that failed on multiple levels: is it really safe to say "Big Canon knows what they are doing", "they know their market" etc. and trust them in their decision to release dozens of options and features over the next 10 years, that other brands already sell?
Even if Canon's product strategies are the best for Canon's current profits, how will that help them in the longterm future, when more and more customers get the feeling that Canon artifically limits camera products, while other brands try harder to come up with their best?
If the claim is "Canon does not care about the complaints of a single customer", why should any single customer care about Canon and their profit maximizing strategies?
In many situations the workflow with Canon cameras is slower and more complicated as necessary in the year 2016, and the logistics are worse than necessary because you need to carry around more camera models to do multiple tasks. Only this counts for many and more and more single customers, unfortunately too few might see a chance to change that by telling it on the net.
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