Canon EOS 6D Mark II Talk [CR1]

[Loswr]

but the interesting observation to make is that if the rumors are true then it is again representative of a vendor that is responding to market feedback and one that is very reluctant to.

What is your evidence that Canon is reluctant to respond to market feedback? Them not delivering specific features that a handful of people whine about on Internet forums like this one? :

It's quite obvious that Canon does respond to market feedback...and equally obvious that people on this and similar forums are not representative of their market.

 

[romanr74]

It is funny when consumers argue as if they were the company and defend everything the company didn't achieve or did wrong as if the company was a relative, and don't seem to be interested in getting products with better features themselves - while the company shows no compassion for the consumer at all when it comes to prices, strategic feature limitations etc.

It is funny when people ignore the realities of business and the drivers thereof, and defend their own opinion as if it actually meant anything to a large corporation.

It is funny when people demand a set of features – and have been doing so for years – without bothering to consider the business reasons their desires are ignored.

It is funny when those people become so frustrated they are reduced to shouting to try and get their points across, like an imbecile standing on a soapbox.*

Meanwhile, other people have the ability to consider their wants and dissatisfaction in the larger business context. Sadly, those unwilling or unable to comprehend that business context seem to end up acting like petulant children...shouting, proclaiming doom because they and the infinitesimal number of people they know are dissatisfied, and generally sounding rather foolish.

*refrrences to current American politics are unintentional.

What you have to understand is that there is great value in listening to some of the anecdotes from people who actually use these products. I for one definitely want to hear what the camera can or cannot do as this forms my opinion for purchasing an alternative product or not. Likewise, I also provide reasons why I will purchase a product or why not based on my experiences with working with many different systems. Not all of us are armchair quarterbacks, and some of us actually live and breathe this stuff everyday.

When you consistently play the market share and/or business acumen card, it grows weary because it does not add much value to this dialogue other than "I don't really have to argue with you because the company knows best and you should kneel.." This is great for forum fodder, but not much value otherwise.

You don't have to validate dissenting opinions, but to accept that it exists, gauge that trend and determine when you may want to act upon that information.

Think of this way, if Canon in 5 years reached market share parity with Nikon and Sony like Toyota has with VW and GM, will that extra 1.5% market share held by shooters like myself be relevant and what card will you play at that point?

Food for thought..

Very well said...

 

[tcmatthews]

Just had a really long week at work. Hoping to see discusion about a rumored 6D Mark II. But it looks like this went off the rails some were as usual. But as to the 6D II I am hoping to see

• tilt flip screen
• auto focus system similar to 5D III
• 4k in some form
• at least one sd uhs-ii slot
• 24-32 MP sensor
• similar sized body

I expect all high end Canon cameras to have the dual pixel auto focus. If it is around 25 MP I am likely to wait and purchase it refurb. In all honesty more MP is better as long as low light is not sacrificed to much. If it comes in around 30 and does not have an AA filter I will buy it immediately.

Regardless my next primary camera is likely a Sony A9 or whatever the Sony A7rII successor is. I really want a 40+ MP full frame body in a camera the size of a Rebel T6s. And there is no real reason not to buy a Sony given how good Canon lens focus through an adapter.

My A7 II cannot drive my tamron 150-600's auto focus and I would like a full frame camera for when the light gets low. I simply hate the size of 5D bodies. If I had a do over and known the 80D was coming out I would have waited to instead of buying my Canon 7D II.

Ops it seems like I am going off the rails.

 

[romanr74]

What you should understand is that anecdotes ≠ data.

That is actually not quite the case. If the anecdote is shared in a forum like this, it represents a form of "unstructured data". Companies invest a great deal of money and effort to make that data accessible, understandable and actionable. Ergo "posted" anecdotes = data.

 

[Orangutan]

What you should understand is that anecdotes ≠ data.

That is actually not quite the case. If the anecdote is shared in a forum like this, it represents a form of "unstructured data". Companies invest a great deal of money and effort to make that data accessible, understandable and actionable. Ergo "posted" anecdotes = data.

I'd love to know where you got that. Certainly, the Internet has spawned tools to detect trends in posts -- I'll grant you that much. But you're missing two essential concepts: FB posts about the latest gossip do not equal willingness to buy; i.e., trending data is a very weak indicator of purchasing intent. Second, trending data is no match for the direct customer survey data collected by Canon, Nikon, et al.

At best, the correlation between your anecdote and real data is as near to nothing as makes no odds.

 

[Loswr]

What you should understand is that anecdotes ≠ data.

That is actually not quite the case. If the anecdote is shared in a forum like this, it represents a form of "unstructured data". Companies invest a great deal of money and effort to make that data accessible, understandable and actionable. Ergo "posted" anecdotes = data.

I'd love to know where you got that. Certainly, the Internet has spawned tools to detect trends in posts -- I'll grant you that much. But you're missing two essential concepts: FB posts about the latest gossip do not equal willingness to buy; i.e., trending data is a very weak indicator of purchasing intent. Second, trending data is no match for the direct customer survey data collected by Canon, Nikon, et al.

At best, the correlation between your anecdote and real data is as near to nothing as makes no odds.

People have a tendency to fabricate information to suit their purposes. I suppose they think if it sounds moderately cogent, people will believe it.

Anecdotes on the Internet have 'confirmed' the death of the dSLR and doom for Canon. Reality isn't holding its breath.

 

[romanr74]

What you should understand is that anecdotes ≠ data.

That is actually not quite the case. If the anecdote is shared in a forum like this, it represents a form of "unstructured data". Companies invest a great deal of money and effort to make that data accessible, understandable and actionable. Ergo "posted" anecdotes = data.

I'd love to know where you got that. Certainly, the Internet has spawned tools to detect trends in posts -- I'll grant you that much. But you're missing two essential concepts: FB posts about the latest gossip do not equal willingness to buy; i.e., trending data is a very weak indicator of purchasing intent. Second, trending data is no match for the direct customer survey data collected by Canon, Nikon, et al.

At best, the correlation between your anecdote and real data is as near to nothing as makes no odds.

Not sure if you are involved in customer survey stuff, but I guarantee you that these have to be taken with a truckload of salt. I also guarantee you that companies pay attention to combinations of attributes in posts (FB actually being only one possible environment, but there's Canon Rumors Fourm, DPreview, ...).

 

[Loswr]

Not sure if you are involved in customer survey stuff, but I guarantee you that these have to be taken with a truckload of salt.

Consider the data collected every time a customer fills out a new product registration – demographics, other products owned, planned purchases, etc. Lots of data points, fairly reliable, and in some cases longitudinal data.

Consider also the process of election polling, where national outcomes can be predicted with reasonable accuracy by sampling a few hundred people. The key is random selection from millions of voters, or from millions of customers as the case may be.

Your 'unstructured data' 'random musings from forums' does not constitute a random selection, rendering that information of negligible utility.

 

[romanr74]

Not sure if you are involved in customer survey stuff, but I guarantee you that these have to be taken with a truckload of salt.

Consider the data collected every time a customer fills out a new product registration – demographics, other products owned, planned purchases, etc. Lots of data points, fairly reliable, and in some cases longitudinal data.

Consider also the process of election polling, where national outcomes can be predicted with reasonable accuracy by sampling a few hundred people. The key is random selection from millions of voters, or from millions of customers as the case may be.

Your 'unstructured data' 'random musings from forums' does not constitute a random selection, rendering that information of negligible utility.

Do you have data to support these anecdotes?

 

[Loswr]

Not sure if you are involved in customer survey stuff, but I guarantee you that these have to be taken with a truckload of salt.

Consider the data collected every time a customer fills out a new product registration – demographics, other products owned, planned purchases, etc. Lots of data points, fairly reliable, and in some cases longitudinal data.

Consider also the process of election polling, where national outcomes can be predicted with reasonable accuracy by sampling a few hundred people. The key is random selection from millions of voters, or from millions of customers as the case may be.

Your 'unstructured data' 'random musings from forums' does not constitute a random selection, rendering that information of negligible utility.

Do you have data to support these anecdotes?

an·ec·dote ˈanəkˌdōt/ noun
1. a short and amusing or interesting story about a real incident or person.
2. an account regarded as unreliable or hearsay.

Seems like you're unclear on the concept of 'anecdote'. Hope the above helps.

 

[romanr74]

Not sure if you are involved in customer survey stuff, but I guarantee you that these have to be taken with a truckload of salt.

Consider the data collected every time a customer fills out a new product registration – demographics, other products owned, planned purchases, etc. Lots of data points, fairly reliable, and in some cases longitudinal data.

Consider also the process of election polling, where national outcomes can be predicted with reasonable accuracy by sampling a few hundred people. The key is random selection from millions of voters, or from millions of customers as the case may be.

Your 'unstructured data' 'random musings from forums' does not constitute a random selection, rendering that information of negligible utility.

Do you have data to support these anecdotes?

an·ec·dote ˈanəkˌdōt/ noun
1. a short and amusing or interesting story about a real incident or person.
2. an account regarded as unreliable or hearsay.

Seems like you're unclear on the concept of 'anecdote'. Hope the above helps.

No data, I see. Hence "hearsay"?

 

[Loswr]

Not sure if you are involved in customer survey stuff, but I guarantee you that these have to be taken with a truckload of salt.

Consider the data collected every time a customer fills out a new product registration – demographics, other products owned, planned purchases, etc. Lots of data points, fairly reliable, and in some cases longitudinal data.

Consider also the process of election polling, where national outcomes can be predicted with reasonable accuracy by sampling a few hundred people. The key is random selection from millions of voters, or from millions of customers as the case may be.

Your 'unstructured data' 'random musings from forums' does not constitute a random selection, rendering that information of negligible utility.

Do you have data to support these anecdotes?

an·ec·dote ˈanəkˌdōt/ noun
1. a short and amusing or interesting story about a real incident or person.
2. an account regarded as unreliable or hearsay.

Seems like you're unclear on the concept of 'anecdote'. Hope the above helps.

No data, I see. Hence "hearsay"?

That woooshing sound was the point going over your head. The point is Canon has the data, which makes sense since they're the ones with the ability to act on it.

To see some of the data types that Canon collects, visit their product registration page. To learn about statistical methods in polling, there are ample references and data, try your local library or Google. To understand that forum participants don't represent a random sample of a population, just try thinking logically for a moment.

Seems like you're just arguing for the sake of it, which makes this discussion pointless.

Incidentally, you're the one who stated, "I guarantee...," twice. I'd say that puts any burden of proof on you. So as they say...put up or shut up.

 

[romanr74]

Not sure if you are involved in customer survey stuff, but I guarantee you that these have to be taken with a truckload of salt.

Consider the data collected every time a customer fills out a new product registration – demographics, other products owned, planned purchases, etc. Lots of data points, fairly reliable, and in some cases longitudinal data.

Consider also the process of election polling, where national outcomes can be predicted with reasonable accuracy by sampling a few hundred people. The key is random selection from millions of voters, or from millions of customers as the case may be.

Your 'unstructured data' 'random musings from forums' does not constitute a random selection, rendering that information of negligible utility.

Do you have data to support these anecdotes?

an·ec·dote ˈanəkˌdōt/ noun
1. a short and amusing or interesting story about a real incident or person.
2. an account regarded as unreliable or hearsay.

Seems like you're unclear on the concept of 'anecdote'. Hope the above helps.

No data, I see. Hence "hearsay"?

That woooshing sound was the point going over your head. The point is Canon has the data, which makes sense since they're the ones with the ability to act on it.

To see some of the data types that Canon collects, visit their product registration page. To learn about statistical methods in polling, there are ample references and data, try your local library or Google. To understand that forum participants don't represent a random sample of a population, just try thinking logically for a moment.

Seems like you're just arguing for the sake of it, which makes this discussion pointless.

Incidentally, you're the one who stated, "I guarantee...," twice. I'd say that puts any burden of proof on you. So as they say...put up or shut up.

plenty of talk yet no data. proof is for everybody else... perfectly understood. didn't expect anything else, all good. i like the put up or shut up thing though...

 

[Loswr]

plenty of talk yet no data. proof is for everybody else... perfectly understood. didn't expect anything else, all good.

I invited consideration of some information, then suggested resources to obtain further knowledge. What, exactly, requires proof? You, on the other hand, state that you guarantee certain things. Evidently your words are empty and worthless.

 

[romanr74]

plenty of talk yet no data. proof is for everybody else... perfectly understood. didn't expect anything else, all good.

I invited consideration of some information, then suggested resources to obtain further knowledge. What, exactly, requires proof? You, on the other hand, state that you guarantee certain things. Evidently your words are empty and worthless.

Evidently? Share your "evidence" please... But no more anecdotes ja?!

 

[Loswr]

But as to the 6D II I am hoping to see

• tilt flip screen
• auto focus system similar to 5D III
• 4k in some form
• at least one sd uhs-ii slot
• 24-32 MP sensor
• similar sized body

Most points seem likely, but I have my doubts the AF will come anywhere close to the 5DIII.

 

[fentiger]

canon also have a FB page, they get plenty of feedback or shit from there, so no need for them to look at CR

 

[Zv]

What you should understand is that anecdotes ≠ data.

That is actually not quite the case. If the anecdote is shared in a forum like this, it represents a form of "unstructured data". Companies invest a great deal of money and effort to make that data accessible, understandable and actionable. Ergo "posted" anecdotes = data.

If scientific research were to include Internet forum anecdotes as evidence we would be led to believe that the earth is flat and climate change is not real. Posted anecdotes are nothing but people rambling.

People complain about the price of gas but they still buy it. People complain about their job but they still go to work (well when their not arguing on CR that is).

Your argument is full of giant holes. Just stop. Please. Just take it as "sorry guys I messed up there" and move on. No worries.

 

[romanr74]

What you should understand is that anecdotes ≠ data.

That is actually not quite the case. If the anecdote is shared in a forum like this, it represents a form of "unstructured data". Companies invest a great deal of money and effort to make that data accessible, understandable and actionable. Ergo "posted" anecdotes = data.

If scientific research were to include Internet forum anecdotes as evidence we would be led to believe that the earth is flat and climate change is not real. Posted anecdotes are nothing but people rambling.

People complain about the price of gas but they still buy it. People complain about their job but they still go to work (well when their not arguing on CR that is).

Your argument is full of giant holes. Just stop. Please. Just take it as "sorry guys I messed up there" and move on. No worries.

i like your earth example. even the people who conclude that the earth is too flat for them will hardly find a viable alternative...

i can buy my gas from someone cheaper if price is my primary concern, however. i can also work for some other employer if i believe this will be better. there are sites like kununu.com/glassdoor.com where people share their impressions with employers. i'm rather positive that both employees and employers to a certain degree care about these feedbacks.

or i can buy gear from a different manufacturer if i believe my current manufacturer isn't giving me what i want. imagine a situation where every second post is about how bad canon DR is. i would be surprised if canon didn't want to know.

 

[merefield]

Looks like still no in built flash. It is doomed. Think what happened to Kodak and Nokia.

What serious FF camera has a built in flash?

Most direct flash is _horrible_ and now sensors are much more able to cope with low light conditions.

If you need flash use free standing ones.