Canon EOS 6D Mark II Talk [CR1]

[Mikehit]

I am pretty sure that Canon do take into consideration forums such as this. But they are also aware that many people say 'Canon is lagging bahind [Brand] because they have not yet put 8k video in their cameras' are very often people who would not buy the camera anyway, or will not stump up the several hundred dollars it adds to the cost. But comments do certainly give a feel for where the market impression is going. All companies do this and are stupid not to. Remember Nikon's 'we don't need more than 12 MP' when Canon took the leap to 15MP? My guess is that was really code for 'we haven't developed the sensor yet' which is why they eventually bought in Sony sensors because MPs really, really do affect how you take pictures and their output.
I think Canon understand this as well while and in this respect adding video (to take one of the current hot topics) has also become a vital marketing tool just like the MP wars of 5 years ago.

But Canon also goes to the professionals and asks 'what wold make your life easier/better/more profitable' and that is where they core design decisions come from. Some of those can easily be extrapolated to lower end models and they find out with proper market research to identify what else will make the photographic experience better. And to my mind in both sectors they decided adding some functions will make you go 'nice' but adding other functions to taking stills will make you 'WOW! This is really, really cool' and given this camera is aimed at still shooters they know where the priority lies.

Other companies decide different priorities. Sony decided they would do what they can with AF but made sure they added very good video which is probably why I don't see heaps of Sony cameras as Sports events. But then again nor do I see heaps of professional video shot with them (I see people on for saying 'this is professional grade video' without actually seeing anyone making video with it as part of their crust-earning workflow. Its huge advantage over Canon is its smaller form factor, and if it wasn't for that would it really be so widely praised?

 

[romanr74]

I am pretty sure that Canon do take into consideration forums such as this. But they are also aware that many people say 'Canon is lagging bahind [Brand] because they have not yet put 8k video in their cameras' are very often people who would not buy the camera anyway, or will not stump up the several hundred dollars it adds to the cost. But comments do certainly give a feel for where the market impression is going. All companies do this and are stupid not to. Remember Nikon's 'we don't need more than 12 MP' when Canon took the leap to 15MP? My guess is that was really code for 'we haven't developed the sensor yet' which is why they eventually bought in Sony sensors because MPs really, really do affect how you take pictures and their output.
I think Canon understand this as well while and in this respect adding video (to take one of the current hot topics) has also become a vital marketing tool just like the MP wars of 5 years ago.

But Canon also goes to the professionals and asks 'what wold make your life easier/better/more profitable' and that is where they core design decisions come from. Some of those can easily be extrapolated to lower end models and they find out with proper market research to identify what else will make the photographic experience better. And to my mind in both sectors they decided adding some functions will make you go 'nice' but adding other functions to taking stills will make you 'WOW! This is really, really cool' and given this camera is aimed at still shooters they know where the priority lies.

Other companies decide different priorities. Sony decided they would do what they can with AF but made sure they added very good video which is probably why I don't see heaps of Sony cameras as Sports events. But then again nor do I see heaps of professional video shot with them (I see people on for saying 'this is professional grade video' without actually seeing anyone making video with it as part of their crust-earning workflow. Its huge advantage over Canon is its smaller form factor, and if it wasn't for that would it really be so widely praised?

+10

 

[d]

Looks like still no in built flash. It is doomed. Think what happened to Kodak and Nokia.

What serious FF camera has a built in flash?

Most direct flash is _horrible_ and now sensors are much more able to cope with low light conditions.

If you need flash use free standing ones.

As a key light, yes, a direct blast with a camera's built in flash tends to be horrible and unflattering, however it can be useful as a fill light in some situations. And as good as modern sensors are today, I'd rather pump some extra light in and not have to recover too much.

In saying that, I'd prefer a body without built-in flash, and use a speedlight if needed.

 

[Zv]

What you should understand is that anecdotes ≠ data.

That is actually not quite the case. If the anecdote is shared in a forum like this, it represents a form of "unstructured data". Companies invest a great deal of money and effort to make that data accessible, understandable and actionable. Ergo "posted" anecdotes = data.

If scientific research were to include Internet forum anecdotes as evidence we would be led to believe that the earth is flat and climate change is not real. Posted anecdotes are nothing but people rambling.

People complain about the price of gas but they still buy it. People complain about their job but they still go to work (well when their not arguing on CR that is).

Your argument is full of giant holes. Just stop. Please. Just take it as "sorry guys I messed up there" and move on. No worries.

i like your earth example. even the people who conclude that the earth is too flat for them will hardly find a viable alternative...

i can buy my gas from someone cheaper if price is my primary concern, however. i can also work for some other employer if i believe this will be better. there are sites like kununu.com/glassdoor.com where people share their impressions with employers. i'm rather positive that both employees and employers to a certain degree care about these feedbacks.

or i can buy gear from a different manufacturer if i believe my current manufacturer isn't giving me what i want. imagine a situation where every second post is about how bad canon DR is. i would be surprised if canon didn't want to know.

Yes, Canon also gets feedback from professional photographers who beta test their gear. Feedback is different than forum posts. I wouldn't really regard a forum that isn't connected to Canon in any official capacity as feedback since Canon didn't ask us for it. Yeah, maybe it would be nice if we all had our say but nothing would ever get made!

One person wants video features the other wants stills features and everyone has different priorities and different styles. Canon does the market research to see what combination of features would sell the most. It's a numbers game. Has nothing much to do with what individual people want.

Looking around the market right now there's plenty of choice what with Sony and Nikon and even Pentax bringing out some great cameras. If Canon doesn't fill your needs then something else likely would. Just buy the best tool for the job.

Nowadays pretty much any camera you pick up is "good enough" to create stunning images. The limitation isn't the gear.

Edit - I think you might be mixing up feedback with reviews. Maybe I'm reading you wrong? As a supervisor I often ask my team for feedback to help improve our work but they also might have a little whine on Facebook about a bad day they had or just to let off steam. Are you assuming these two things are the same? I.e data points?

 

[romanr74]

What you should understand is that anecdotes ≠ data.

That is actually not quite the case. If the anecdote is shared in a forum like this, it represents a form of "unstructured data". Companies invest a great deal of money and effort to make that data accessible, understandable and actionable. Ergo "posted" anecdotes = data.

If scientific research were to include Internet forum anecdotes as evidence we would be led to believe that the earth is flat and climate change is not real. Posted anecdotes are nothing but people rambling.

People complain about the price of gas but they still buy it. People complain about their job but they still go to work (well when their not arguing on CR that is).

Your argument is full of giant holes. Just stop. Please. Just take it as "sorry guys I messed up there" and move on. No worries.

i like your earth example. even the people who conclude that the earth is too flat for them will hardly find a viable alternative...

i can buy my gas from someone cheaper if price is my primary concern, however. i can also work for some other employer if i believe this will be better. there are sites like kununu.com/glassdoor.com where people share their impressions with employers. i'm rather positive that both employees and employers to a certain degree care about these feedbacks.

or i can buy gear from a different manufacturer if i believe my current manufacturer isn't giving me what i want. imagine a situation where every second post is about how bad canon DR is. i would be surprised if canon didn't want to know.

Yes, Canon also gets feedback from professional photographers who beta test their gear. Feedback is different than forum posts. I wouldn't really regard a forum that isn't connected to Canon in any official capacity as feedback since Canon didn't ask us for it. Yeah, maybe it would be nice if we all had our say but nothing would ever get made!

One person wants video features the other wants stills features and everyone has different priorities and different styles. Canon does the market research to see what combination of features would sell the most. It's a numbers game. Has nothing much to do with what individual people want.

Looking around the market right now there's plenty of choice what with Sony and Nikon and even Pentax bringing out some great cameras. If Canon doesn't fill your needs then something else likely would. Just buy the best tool for the job.

Nowadays pretty much any camera you pick up is "good enough" to create stunning images. The limitation isn't the gear.

i like the numbers game notion; i'm sure canon will notice and react if there is some particular shortfall mentioned over and over again in feedback not asked for.

i also fully agree with you that the single most limiting factor is the one using the gear...

 

[tcmatthews]

But as to the 6D II I am hoping to see

• tilt flip screen
• auto focus system similar to 5D III
• 4k in some form
• at least one sd uhs-ii slot
• 24-32 MP sensor
• similar sized body

Most points seem likely, but I have my doubts the AF will come anywhere close to the 5DIII.

Similar as in close in practice. Some would argue that close only counts in horseshoes and handgrenades. But when I say similar in mean it in the way that the 6D autofocus was similar to the 60D and 5D II auto focus. On paper the all cross type on the 60D looks superior to the 6D. In practice the 6D is much more accurate. (At least mine was.)

I expect that it will have around the same number of auto focus points as the 5DIII. They may not be all cross type. But they will be tuned in such a way that the performance is on par or in low light situations even better than the 5DIII. That is just expected advancement given where the 6D was originally placed in relation the the 5D II.

The real questions are will the 6DII have better low light performance that the 5DIV and will they utilize a flip screen to introduce more advanced video features?

 

[Mikehit]

In reading the other 6DII thread a different question occurred to me.

To my way of thinking the 6D was basically a 5D3 with a lot of functions stripped out so that they could bring the price down to a reasonable 'FF entry' price, but still giving people basic functionality for landscapes and portraits. And a very successful approach it was as far as I can tell.

If there is to be a similar relationship to the 5D4 then the question becomes "what functionality would you strip out of the 5D4 to bring it down to 2,000USD". That is what I assume the price of the 6D2 will be to maintain the ethos.

Of course if you add thing like a tilty screen or a swivel screen or a new type of sensor that means you need to strip even more out of the existing 5D4.
Then I think you have a reasonable assessment as to what the 6D2 will be.

 

[tron]

In reading the other 6DII thread a different question occurred to me.

To my way of thinking the 6D was basically a 5D3 with a lot of functions stripped out so that they could bring the price down to a reasonable 'FF entry' price, but still giving people basic functionality for landscapes and portraits. And a very successful approach it was as far as I can tell.

If there is to be a similar relationship to the 5D4 then the question becomes "what functionality would you strip out of the 5D4 to bring it down to 2,000USD". That is what I assume the price of the 6D2 will be to maintain the ethos.

Of course if you add thing like a tilty screen or a swivel screen or a new type of sensor that means you need to strip even more out of the existing 5D4.
Then I think you have a reasonable assessment as to what the 6D2 will be.

1. Video 4K
2. 7fps (7->5.5 fps)
3. DLO
That's about it

 

[Mikehit]

Which means for a vast majority of stills photographer there is no difference between the entry level 6D2 and the latest 5D incarnation. is that really 1,500 difference?

Commercial suicide for the 5D4.

 

[unfocused]

In reading the other 6DII thread a different question occurred to me.

To my way of thinking the 6D was basically a 5D3 with a lot of functions stripped out so that they could bring the price down to a reasonable 'FF entry' price, but still giving people basic functionality for landscapes and portraits. And a very successful approach it was as far as I can tell.

If there is to be a similar relationship to the 5D4 then the question becomes "what functionality would you strip out of the 5D4 to bring it down to 2,000USD". That is what I assume the price of the 6D2 will be to maintain the ethos.

Of course if you add thing like a tilty screen or a swivel screen or a new type of sensor that means you need to strip even more out of the existing 5D4.
Then I think you have a reasonable assessment as to what the 6D2 will be.

That's a pretty good perspective, but I would add some caveats. It's not a one-for-one exchange and it's not even about the presumed cost of a feature, but rather about the perceived value.

With most camera models today, it's not all that difficult to estimate what a new version will be. Specifically, to the 6DII, begin with the features of the existing 6D and assume that's the base (Canon won't go backwards), then look at the features of the 5DIV and establish that as the ceiling. From there, it's not that hard to guess where the 6DII might fall.

You can also look at lower level cameras and assume that features included in those (like touch screen and flip screen) can be added without undermining the value of the 5D IV.

Examples:

The 6D had a 20 mp sensor and the 5DIV has 30 mp, so the 6DII will fall somewhere in between;
The 6D had an 11-point AF with one center cross-type AF point and the 5DIV has 61-point AF with 41 cross-type;
The 6D shot at 4.5 fps and the 5DIV at 7 fps;
The 6D had a single SD card slot, the 5D IV has an SD and a CF;
The 5DIV has anti-flicker, the 6D does not;
No dual-pixel autofocus in the 6D, the 5DIV has dual-pixel autofocus with focus adjustment.

There are, of course, all the ergonomics and weather sealing/build advantages of the 5D that will not show up in the 6D.

If I had to bet today, I would expect a 6DII to have a 24mp sensor, 19-point auto-focus, but all-cross type and all focusing at f8, retain the 4.5 fps, add an additional SD card slot, no anti-flicker and have dual-pixel autofocus but not the micro-adjustment offered in the 5DIV.

Video I think is anyone's guess. It all depends on whether or not Canon can inexpensively add 4K and if they feel they need to because of competitive pressure. It may come down to engineering concerns regarding heat generation, as I do not see Canon adding third-rate 4K.

It will have touch screen, GPS and WiFi built in.

I would rate the chances of a flip-screen at 50/50.

 

[douglaurent]

Last week I bought the new Panasonic GX80/85 with micro four thirds mount for 550 euros. It has equally good 4K video with a similar crop factor as the 5D4 and 1DX2, of course much better than the 6D1 quality. Most of it is has tons of additional features the Canon DSLRs that are 8-12x as expensive don't have, like a brilliant 5-axis sensor stabilizer that is much better than the Canon lens stabilization systems.

After using this 550 euro Panasonic camera and going back to working with the 5D4, it feels as if I hold a product from 2008 in my hands and immediately miss 10 essential things. I hear the same thing nearly daily from ANYBODY that had the chance to compare the traditional Canon and Nikon dinosaur cameras with these new tools. Even if Canon would add 1-3 new features in the 6D2 that the 5D4/1DX2 don't have yet (and it won't be more), it will still be behind in app. 15 other essential features.

 

[Loswr]

Last week I bought the new Panasonic GX80/85 with micro four thirds mount for 550 euros. It has equally good 4K video with a similar crop factor as the 5D4 and 1DX2, of course much better than the 6D1 quality. Most of it is has tons of additional features the Canon DSLRs that are 8-12x as expensive don't have, like a brilliant 5-axis sensor stabilizer that is much better than the Canon lens stabilization systems.

After using this 550 euro Panasonic camera and going back to working with the 5D4, it feels as if I hold a product from 2008 in my hands and immediately miss 10 essential things. I hear the same thing nearly daily from ANYBODY that had the chance to compare the traditional Canon and Nikon dinosaur cameras with these new tools. Even if Canon would add 1-3 new features in the 6D2 that the 5D4/1DX2 don't have yet (and it won't be more), it will still be behind in app. 15 other essential features.

Yeah, sounds like Canon is doomed.

 

[tron]

Last week I bought the new Panasonic GX80/85 with micro four thirds mount for 550 euros. It has equally good 4K video with a similar crop factor as the 5D4 and 1DX2, of course much better than the 6D1 quality. Most of it is has tons of additional features the Canon DSLRs that are 8-12x as expensive don't have, like a brilliant 5-axis sensor stabilizer that is much better than the Canon lens stabilization systems.

After using this 550 euro Panasonic camera and going back to working with the 5D4, it feels as if I hold a product from 2008 in my hands and immediately miss 10 essential things. I hear the same thing nearly daily from ANYBODY that had the chance to compare the traditional Canon and Nikon dinosaur cameras with these new tools. Even if Canon would add 1-3 new features in the 6D2 that the 5D4/1DX2 don't have yet (and it won't be more), it will still be behind in app. 15 other essential features.

Well judging from:

...
My shopping message to Canon just was: I only bought 1 instead of 2 1DX2 and 1 instead of 3 5D4 - because of their lack of innovation, or better said: lack of including what their competitors already sell.

...

you should buy more than 1 Panasonic ;D

 

[Mikehit]

Last week I bought the new Panasonic GX80/85 with micro four thirds mount for 550 euros. It has equally good 4K video with a similar crop factor as the 5D4 and 1DX2, of course much better than the 6D1 quality. Most of it is has tons of additional features the Canon DSLRs that are 8-12x as expensive don't have, like a brilliant 5-axis sensor stabilizer that is much better than the Canon lens stabilization systems.

After using this 550 euro Panasonic camera and going back to working with the 5D4, it feels as if I hold a product from 2008 in my hands and immediately miss 10 essential things. I hear the same thing nearly daily from ANYBODY that had the chance to compare the traditional Canon and Nikon dinosaur cameras with these new tools. Even if Canon would add 1-3 new features in the 6D2 that the 5D4/1DX2 don't have yet (and it won't be more), it will still be behind in app. 15 other essential features.

Yeah, MFTs are seductive. I have the E-M5 and the GX7 and think they are both great cameras and there are some superb lenses available. So much so that when travelling on business or a casual visit into town and happily pack one (or both) knowing I will get excellent pictures. But there are also severe drawbacks for me as well.
So if MFT is 10 years ahead of the Canon, I dare you to sell your Canon gear and live solely with MFTs.

Bet you won't ;D

 

[Sabaki]

Last week I bought the new Panasonic GX80/85 with micro four thirds mount for 550 euros. It has equally good 4K video with a similar crop factor as the 5D4 and 1DX2, of course much better than the 6D1 quality. Most of it is has tons of additional features the Canon DSLRs that are 8-12x as expensive don't have, like a brilliant 5-axis sensor stabilizer that is much better than the Canon lens stabilization systems.

After using this 550 euro Panasonic camera and going back to working with the 5D4, it feels as if I hold a product from 2008 in my hands and immediately miss 10 essential things. I hear the same thing nearly daily from ANYBODY that had the chance to compare the traditional Canon and Nikon dinosaur cameras with these new tools. Even if Canon would add 1-3 new features in the 6D2 that the 5D4/1DX2 don't have yet (and it won't be more), it will still be behind in app. 15 other essential features.

Yeah, sounds like Canon is doomed.

So a different market but a pretty huge company by the name of Sega sat in a similar position a few years back.

They just emerged out of the very successful Sega Genesis era and held 2nd spot in the gaming market, behind Nintendo's SNES console. Although 2nd placed, Sega could lay claim to having massive success with their 16bit console due to the sheer numbers it moved.

With the release of firstly the Sega Saturn and then Sega Dreamcast, Sega put out fantastic machines that appealed very much to their hardcore market, as it had brilliant titles lined up left, right and centre.

Meanwhile, Sony emerged with their PlayStation and it's incredible marketing machine. They approached former Nintendo developers like Rare (responsible for Donkey Kong Country, 6 million units sold) & Square Enix (Final Fantasy series). Within a single year, the entire market had a very different complexion.

Sony were dominant and Sega's Saturn was considered by the average, non hardcore consumer to be underpowered and underwhelming, even though the hardcore market loved the titles. Sony and Sega both released Tomb Raider but due to the far greater computing ability of the PS, the Sega version looked poor.

Then Sony released Final Fantasy VII (from a previous Nintendo developer) and Sega was forced to move early on their next generation machine and they released the Sega Dreamcast in 1999. A brilliant machine with many AAA+ titles in the pipeline. A year later, the biggest ever selling console, the PlayStation 2 was released and many of those AAA+ titles of Sega's were cancelled outright or moved to the PS2.

Sega then made a decision to drop out of the console market and become 'system agnostic', essentially becoming a 3rd party developer for Nintendo and Sony.

For the record, the gaming market now nets more revenue than Hollywood as a whole.

Then there's the more recent story of Nokia, who were out and out the most dominant manufacturer of mobile phones.

Not an expert on this story but there were talks of Elon Musk's company displacing Nasa as the US government's space program. I've got no intel on this but listened as Elon Musk is/was a South African and it caused to me to kinda listen.

If anything, the above indicates that current market position needs to be looked at considering other factors. Please note that I am not saying Canon are anywhere near a similar position nor am I trying to be argumentative but there is a strong argument that catering to the hardcore market whilst paying less attention to what the masses are looking for in a camera, may change the landscape quickly and dramatically for Canon.

 

[Loswr]

If anything, the above indicates that current market position needs to be looked at considering other factors. Please note that I am not saying Canon are anywhere near a similar position nor am I trying to be argumentative but there is a strong argument that catering to the hardcore market whilst paying less attention to what the masses are looking for in a camera, may change the landscape quickly and dramatically for Canon.

Do you believe that Canon is, "...catering to the hardcore market whilst paying less attention to what the masses are looking for," in an ILC?

 

[scyrene]

Oh right. Well, better in every way except it's a stop wider. It definitely beats the 24-105 at f/2.8!

Not really, at least when comparing the 17-55/2.8 on APS-C with the 24-105/4 on FF. The former is equivalent to a 27-88mm f/4.5 focal length and DoF, and the 1.3-stop ISO advantage of FF more than counters the 1-stop wider aperture. So, all you really gain with the 17-55/2.8 is activation of the center f/2.8 high-precision AF point.

But compare the EF-S 10-22mm with the 17-40L, similar in price but the 10-22 is optically far better.

Argh! Well then I go back to price. APS-C (M4/3, etc) surely has *some* advantage, or else why bother?!

 

[scyrene]

Personally I don't even complain about the prices, and would pay $1000 more if a 5D4 had an articulating screen. I would pay lots more if it was mirrorless. They just need to release it.

Simple question: do you think Canon would gain more customers than it loses if they charged $1000 more having released the 5D4 as a mirrorless camera? Take a step back, calm down, and *think*. One of the biggest complaints on these forums and elsewhere has been the 5D4's high introductory price. I've seen no complaints about the presence of a mirror. Do you think there's such a huge unspoken groundswell of desire for a mirrorless equivalent that all those people would pay that much more for it?

Or can you actually see that your needs are not mainstream? That doesn't make them wrong. But releasing a camera that doesn't sell well because *most* people don't want to pay that much for what it is would be a poor business decision. Can you see that?

It is funny when consumers argue as if they were the company and defend everything the company didn't achieve or did wrong as if the company was a relative, and don't seem to be interested in getting products with better features themselves - while the company shows no compassion for the consumer at all when it comes to prices, strategic feature limitations etc.

And yes, people who didn't work with and understood a well adjusted mirrorless camera will mostly not complain that Canon doesn't have a serious offer yet. That's why it takes years until the obvious progress happens, and Canon is happy to sell you 3 cameras over the next 8 years, instead of one you could use now and keep for 8 years.

You didn't answer my reasonable question. I'll no longer bother replying to you because you are either a genuine troll or else so far removed from reason and reality you may as well be one.

 

[scyrene]

...
And if the newbies come in screaming at people and calling them names they should be warned and then banned if they keep at it.
...

The problem with that is that they are just following the behavioral patterns of others. How do you ban a newbie for calling someone names when someone that has 20,000 posts does that exact same thing all the time? The problem isn't the newbie.

Meanwhile, someone can have 6000 posts and have contributed nothing at all to the forum (no pictures posted, no helpful advice, no technical expertise). And passive aggressive is generally worse than just aggressive.

 

[scyrene]

... Since various people want to believe the Sun effectively shines out of Canon's a*** then it is easier to think of a growing number of people that are discontent with Canon to be the one person than accept that multiple people may be disappointed with Canon's products.

And you are one of them, but still being here complaining about it for number of years? Thought that you are already switch? If so, what is the benefit of keep complaining?

One person cannot destroy brand confidence, only a manufacturer can do that by producing weak products.

Week products? You DO NOT EVEN KNOW how to compose a right image, light, or even post process your images. What makes you qualified in saying this? A year ago, you challenged me to photograph landscape. I did switch and am already in mid-level of it and still keep learning. I wonder where you are now in your desired topic.

Or you just like some others want a mirrorless from Canon? to aid you to see how your image look like before clicking your shutter? to aid you in not getting many of under and over expose images due to lack of knowing light or choosing light?

Dilbert refuses to be drawn on what camera gear he owns, and never posts pictures, as far as I know. The purported motivation is noble - one should deal with arguments on their merits, not the skills or output of their proponents - but in reality it means he can retain the affected mantle of being above such petty things as actually using cameras for taking photographs. Alas the arguments made, such as they are, are of little merit either, most of the time.