Canon EOS 6D Mark II Talk [CR1]

[Loswr]

Oh right. Well, better in every way except it's a stop wider. It definitely beats the 24-105 at f/2.8!

Not really, at least when comparing the 17-55/2.8 on APS-C with the 24-105/4 on FF. The former is equivalent to a 27-88mm f/4.5 focal length and DoF, and the 1.3-stop ISO advantage of FF more than counters the 1-stop wider aperture. So, all you really gain with the 17-55/2.8 is activation of the center f/2.8 high-precision AF point.

But compare the EF-S 10-22mm with the 17-40L, similar in price but the 10-22 is optically far better.

Argh! Well then I go back to price. APS-C (M4/3, etc) surely has *some* advantage, or else why bother?!

The main advantage is lower system cost, and sometimis size/weight. Provided you don't need shallow DoF and shoot in reasonably good light, a smaller sensor can be a good option.

 

[FECHariot]

Looks like still no in built flash. It is doomed. Think what happened to Kodak and Nokia.

What serious FF camera has a built in flash?

Most direct flash is _horrible_ and now sensors are much more able to cope with low light conditions.

If you need flash use free standing ones.

As a key light, yes, a direct blast with a camera's built in flash tends to be horrible and unflattering, however it can be useful as a fill light in some situations. And as good as modern sensors are today, I'd rather pump some extra light in and not have to recover too much.

In saying that, I'd prefer a body without built-in flash, and use a speedlight if needed.

Good point here. I have to say though I would not not ever use pop up flash on a 6D2 or any other camera. For Fill, the pop up is most often too weak to really add much fill. It can't do high speed synch either and if you are outside in bright conditions that quickly becomes limiting. I almost always have a flash gun with me. If I want to go lighter, I have the 270ex2 and at least it can do high speed synch and when I am not using it, I can throw it in my pocket.

Basically, I have not raised the pop up flash on my current 7D since I bought my 580EX2 and no longer needed the pop up flash to trigger my off camera 430s.

Sure the Nikon D750 has pop up flash, but I wold rather see Canon match other of it's specs in the 6D2 like faster FPS, More AF points and even flippy screen. Pop up flash is not a factor in my purchase criteria.

 

[d]

Meanwhile, someone can have 6000 posts and have contributed nothing at all to the forum (no pictures posted, no helpful advice, no technical expertise). And passive aggressive is generally worse than just aggressive.

In another thread regarding the 5DIV review at TDP, I provided a link to a thread Dilbert started several years back where he posted a photo of a penguin...I was going to mention it here as proof of Dilbert's contribution of at least one image...but the thread seems to have mysteriously disappeared!

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=5334.0

Dilbert, do you know anything about its disappearance by any chance?

EDIT: waybackmachine seems to still have it...phew!

https://web.archive.org/web/20150906073945/http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=5334.0

 

[Sabaki]

If anything, the above indicates that current market position needs to be looked at considering other factors. Please note that I am not saying Canon are anywhere near a similar position nor am I trying to be argumentative but there is a strong argument that catering to the hardcore market whilst paying less attention to what the masses are looking for in a camera, may change the landscape quickly and dramatically for Canon.

Do you believe that Canon is, "...catering to the hardcore market whilst paying less attention to what the masses are looking for," in an ILC?

No, I'm not committing to a side on this argument as I do feel that both sides have valid points and no one argument is categorically correct. People either side of the conversation are intelligent and knowledgeable, perhaps the constant heat and emotion in the conversation has stopped a healthy debate from happening.

 

[FECHariot]

No.. what would be truely awsome is a DETACHABLE screen.. sure let it be tip/tilt/swivel.. but let it also be detachable.. then you don't have to muck about with pairing problems to remote control, if it breaks you just buy a new screen and you have no weather sealing issues.

This sounds like a great idea in theory, just like the new Apple earbuds. However, The first time you don't click the screen back into place properly will be when you are walking over a sewage grate and by by screen down the grate. Then you get to pay $500 for a new screen to use your camera. Same thing as is going to happen to the Ear bud users, they are going to loose them.

 

[Loswr]

Meanwhile, someone can have 6000 posts and have contributed nothing at all to the forum (no pictures posted, no helpful advice, no technical expertise). And passive aggressive is generally worse than just aggressive.

In another thread regarding the 5DIV review at TDP, I provided a link to a thread Dilbert started several years back where he posted a photo of a penguin...I was going to mention it here as proof of Dilbert's contribution of at least one image...but the thread seems to have mysteriously disappeared!

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=5334.0

Dilbert, do you know anything about its disappearance by any chance?

EDIT: waybackmachine seems to still have it...phew!

https://web.archive.org/web/20150906073945/http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=5334.0

I noticed that, and since I see no reason why any mod would delete the thread, the only possible conclusion is that dilbert deleted it himself.

Thanks for digging out the archived version, it always helps to put comments in perspective when you see images that someone felt were impactful enough to warrant starting a thread to share them.

 

[Loswr]

This sounds like a great idea in theory, just like the new Apple earbuds. ... Same thing as is going to happen to the Ear bud users, they are going to loose them.

Simple solution there...attach a thin wire to the earbuds.

 

[d]

This sounds like a great idea in theory, just like the new Apple earbuds. ... Same thing as is going to happen to the Ear bud users, they are going to loose them.

Simple solution there...attach a thin wire to the earbuds.

If Apple was clever, the thin wire would be capable of carrying a small current in order keep the batteries topped up - now your wireless earbuds aren't going to be lost *and* will play for much longer...

 

[d]

Argh! Well then I go back to price. APS-C (M4/3, etc) surely has *some* advantage, or else why bother?!

The main advantage is lower system cost, and sometimis size/weight. Provided you don't need shallow DoF and shoot in reasonably good light, a smaller sensor can be a good option.

Slightly O/T, but this week Thom Hogan shared some interesting thoughts on the current state of the sensor market that I think is worth a read - he's favouring APS sized sensors as the sweet spot in the market currently, when evaluating cost vs. performance (obviously there are other factors to consider).

d.

http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/its-about-the-sensor-again.html

 

[FECHariot]

This sounds like a great idea in theory, just like the new Apple earbuds. ... Same thing as is going to happen to the Ear bud users, they are going to loose them.

Simple solution there...attach a thin wire to the earbuds.

Nice

 

[FECHariot]

Argh! Well then I go back to price. APS-C (M4/3, etc) surely has *some* advantage, or else why bother?!

The main advantage is lower system cost, and sometimis size/weight. Provided you don't need shallow DoF and shoot in reasonably good light, a smaller sensor can be a good option.

Seeing how I don't ever see myself being able to justify the cost of a 1D model, a 7D/xxD model paired with a 6d model is probably where I'll live. The 7D can't keep up with the higher ISO thin DOF of the full frame and the 6D wont be able to keep up with the action I want in a 7D. If the 6D2 doesn't seem like it fills enough of the holes the 7D leaves, then I might just wait for the 5d4 to come down in price and have that be my do all body.


Slightly O/T, but this week Thom Hogan shared some interesting thoughts on the current state of the sensor market that I think is worth a read - he's favouring APS sized sensors as the sweet spot in the market currently, when evaluating cost vs. performance (obviously there are other factors to consider).

d.

http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/its-about-the-sensor-again.html

 

[douglaurent]

Last week I bought the new Panasonic GX80/85 with micro four thirds mount for 550 euros. It has equally good 4K video with a similar crop factor as the 5D4 and 1DX2, of course much better than the 6D1 quality. Most of it is has tons of additional features the Canon DSLRs that are 8-12x as expensive don't have, like a brilliant 5-axis sensor stabilizer that is much better than the Canon lens stabilization systems.

After using this 550 euro Panasonic camera and going back to working with the 5D4, it feels as if I hold a product from 2008 in my hands and immediately miss 10 essential things. I hear the same thing nearly daily from ANYBODY that had the chance to compare the traditional Canon and Nikon dinosaur cameras with these new tools. Even if Canon would add 1-3 new features in the 6D2 that the 5D4/1DX2 don't have yet (and it won't be more), it will still be behind in app. 15 other essential features.

Yeah, sounds like Canon is doomed.

Sounds more like Canon is happy about any customer who is not well informed and too lazy for consequences

 

[romanr74]

Thanks for digging out the archived version, it always helps to put comments in perspective when you see images that someone felt were impactful enough to warrant starting a thread to share them.

In case anyone is curious, here's the image that dilbert started a thread to share with the community.

Was this really needed?

 

[Loswr]

Last week I bought the new Panasonic GX80/85 with micro four thirds mount for 550 euros. It has equally good 4K video with a similar crop factor as the 5D4 and 1DX2, of course much better than the 6D1 quality. Most of it is has tons of additional features the Canon DSLRs that are 8-12x as expensive don't have, like a brilliant 5-axis sensor stabilizer that is much better than the Canon lens stabilization systems.

After using this 550 euro Panasonic camera and going back to working with the 5D4, it feels as if I hold a product from 2008 in my hands and immediately miss 10 essential things. I hear the same thing nearly daily from ANYBODY that had the chance to compare the traditional Canon and Nikon dinosaur cameras with these new tools. Even if Canon would add 1-3 new features in the 6D2 that the 5D4/1DX2 don't have yet (and it won't be more), it will still be behind in app. 15 other essential features.

Yeah, sounds like Canon is doomed.

Sounds more like Canon is happy about any customer who is not well informed and too lazy for consequences

As long as those customers are buying cameras...yes!

 

[douglaurent]

Personally I don't even complain about the prices, and would pay $1000 more if a 5D4 had an articulating screen. I would pay lots more if it was mirrorless. They just need to release it.

Simple question: do you think Canon would gain more customers than it loses if they charged $1000 more having released the 5D4 as a mirrorless camera? Take a step back, calm down, and *think*. One of the biggest complaints on these forums and elsewhere has been the 5D4's high introductory price. I've seen no complaints about the presence of a mirror. Do you think there's such a huge unspoken groundswell of desire for a mirrorless equivalent that all those people would pay that much more for it?

Or can you actually see that your needs are not mainstream? That doesn't make them wrong. But releasing a camera that doesn't sell well because *most* people don't want to pay that much for what it is would be a poor business decision. Can you see that?

It is funny when consumers argue as if they were the company and defend everything the company didn't achieve or did wrong as if the company was a relative, and don't seem to be interested in getting products with better features themselves - while the company shows no compassion for the consumer at all when it comes to prices, strategic feature limitations etc.

And yes, people who didn't work with and understood a well adjusted mirrorless camera will mostly not complain that Canon doesn't have a serious offer yet. That's why it takes years until the obvious progress happens, and Canon is happy to sell you 3 cameras over the next 8 years, instead of one you could use now and keep for 8 years.

You didn't answer my reasonable question. I'll no longer bother replying to you because you are either a genuine troll or else so far removed from reason and reality you may as well be one.

The question is why any discussion is needed here. Subjectively the 5D2 was well received by 95% of the consumers at release, the 5D3 maybe by 75% and now 50% of the people are negative about it.

Canon sells way less DSLR's than in former years, and products by competitors and especially the mirrorless segment gained a lot of market share.

If you think everything's okay with Canon and their products, good for you. I doubt they will have daily campagne orgies in Toyko because their situation is so excellent.

In the end we all know the background about Canon's strategy: if they release one camera that includes all cool features today, what will they sell in the future? The mass amount of Rebel cameras they sold is already more than enough for most, who stopped buying new models already.

Canon sells new features slowly bit by bit, so they will sell more units over the years. Is that good for any photographer or filmmaker on the planet? Is it great to carry around more stuff than needed and have a slower and less convenient workflow than possible? Not at all. So that's the end of this story.

 

[Mikehit]

Canon sells way less DSLR's than in former years, and products by competitors and especially the mirrorless segment gained a lot of market share.

Can you show the numbers, both total and in comparison to other manufacturers?

The mass amount of Rebel cameras they sold is already more than enough for most, who stopped buying new models already.

They've stopped buying because most people have bought the only DSLR they will be bothered to buy in their lives. Are you aware of market research that something like 70% of users buy their DSLR kit and never buy another lens? Same effect.

Canon sells new features slowly bit by bit, so they will sell more units over the years. Is that good for any photographer or filmmaker on the planet? Is it great to carry around more stuff than needed and have a slower and less convenient workflow than possible? Not at all. So that's the end of this story.

And of course you have evidence that they are the only camera manufacturer to do this.

 

[Luds34]

Looks like still no in built flash. It is doomed. Think what happened to Kodak and Nokia.

What serious FF camera has a built in flash?

Most direct flash is _horrible_ and now sensors are much more able to cope with low light conditions.

If you need flash use free standing ones.

As a key light, yes, a direct blast with a camera's built in flash tends to be horrible and unflattering, however it can be useful as a fill light in some situations. And as good as modern sensors are today, I'd rather pump some extra light in and not have to recover too much.

In saying that, I'd prefer a body without built-in flash, and use a speedlight if needed.

Good point here. I have to say though I would not not ever use pop up flash on a 6D2 or any other camera. For Fill, the pop up is most often too weak to really add much fill. It can't do high speed synch either and if you are outside in bright conditions that quickly becomes limiting. I almost always have a flash gun with me. If I want to go lighter, I have the 270ex2 and at least it can do high speed synch and when I am not using it, I can throw it in my pocket.

Basically, I have not raised the pop up flash on my current 7D since I bought my 580EX2 and no longer needed the pop up flash to trigger my off camera 430s.

Sure the Nikon D750 has pop up flash, but I wold rather see Canon match other of it's specs in the 6D2 like faster FPS, More AF points and even flippy screen. Pop up flash is not a factor in my purchase criteria.

Completely agree with both of you. I've tried using the pop-up flash as "fill flash" in Av mode a couple of times but never was truly happy with the results. As long as one has the foresight to toss a speedlite in the camera bag, that is always a much much better option.

For "run and gun" shooting in low light I personally like tossing on a speedlite in E-TTL with a very fast prime while dragging the shutter a bit and bouncing the flash while shooting wide open. Get background, context and the flash doesn't even have to use too much power so it's usually pretty flattering light. Quite happy with those results.

 

[Loswr]

Subjectively the 5D2 was well received by 95% of the consumers at release, the 5D3 maybe by 75% and now 50% of the people are negative about it.

How many thousands of customers did you survey to come up with those numbers? Please share your metrics and data. Or by 'subjectively' are you really saying that you've just pulled these numbers out of your ass?

Canon sells way less DSLR's than in former years, and products by competitors and especially the mirrorless segment gained a lot of market share.

Canon ILC market share:
2006 – 46%
2010 – 44%
2011 – 44%
2014 – 43%

From where have those competitors and especially the mirrorless segment gained 'a lot' of market share? Clearly, not from Canon.

So that's the end of this story.

You've made it quite obvious that you have no clue about how this story ends. Or how it began. Or the plot along the way.

 

[romanr74]

Does anyone have an overview of camera sales by brand (or just Canon) and Market, broken out into "traditional" DSLR and MILC over say the past 10 years?

 

[unfocused]

Does anyone have an overview of camera sales by brand (or just Canon) and Market, broken out into "traditional" DSLR and MILC over say the past 10 years?

CIPA http://www.cipa.jp/stats/dc_e.html tracks the industry.

There have been a number of threads here in the past that discuss other available data. Occasionally, brand specific data becomes available, but generally that's held pretty close to the vest due to competitive concerns. As I recall, when it has been available it shows Canon is the market leader and has not lost any ground. Some of the smaller brands have seen their market share increase, but it appears to primarily come out of Nikon's and Sony's base not Canon's.