Canon EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II Speculation [CR1]

[x-vision]

Let us daydream for while .

nice

Sure thing .

Seriously, though, people on this thread want a 1DIV ... for a third of the price of the 1DIV.
That's classic!

Also seriously, I have no idea what Canon will do with the 7DII.

The word on the street is that the 5DII will be discontinued by the end of the year.
If Canon is planning to keep the 5DIII price high after the 5DII is discontinued, then it must be planning an advanced camera to fill-in the gap between the Rebels/60D and the super-expensive 5DIII.

But by the end of the year, Nikon will have the D600 - an entry level FF camera for $2K.
This leaves Canon little room in terms of specs & price for the advanced camera that will sit below the 5DIII in the lineup.

If Canon is planning to charge around $2K for this camera, then it's not impossible that this will be the 7DII ... with a FF sensor.
Otherwise, the 7D will just be discontinued and the 70D, priced at $1500 max, will take its place.
In that case the 5DIII price will also have to be reduced to be more competitive with the D600/D800 combo.

Finally, it's not impossible that Canon will pull a "5DIII" and release a 7DII ... with a crop sensor and priced at around $2K.
I know for sure what I'll be doing in this case 8).

 

[Richard8971]

OK, 7D, no flash, ISO 800, 1/664 sec, f8 with Canon EF-s 60mm macro. HAND-HELD, NO IS! Fast? Not hardly for the ISO setting (AND f8!!) and NO flash and NO IS and hand held!

This is after the Canon repair of course.

D

Just curious, did you push the fill light on that file? It looks a little bright and noisy in the BG...

I shot in RAW and did minimal processing using Canon DPP to convert to JPEG. No noise reduction, no brightness adjustment. That photo of the mama hummingbird was shot at the Arizona Sonoran Desert Museum where flash photography is seriously frowned upon (you can be asked to leave if you use flash) in the hummingbird aviary when young hummers are present. The hummers like to hide in the shade and you have to use very high ISO and low f-numbers to get the perfect shot.

I am sorry for changing the tune of this thread discussing my focus issue. Glad to see it went back to the discussion of a "new" 7D2.

I would figure that any new high MP ASP-C (24-36MP) camera from Canon would be the 7D2. High MP, fast shooting, (8-10 FPS) but being ASP-C it would put it under any FF camera and would target budget sports shooters, like the 7D classic did. Around $1600-$1800. Logical road map I think...

D

 

[Marine03]

Its way to hard to guess specs any more... I'm just praying for either a 70D or 7D2 at around 1500 that can do 7FPS, better image quality through 3600 ISO and somewhere between 19-40 AF points. Metal body would be nice also.

 

[Albi86]

It would be quite interesting to know why actually Canon has put the APS-H apart. It's a very nice compromise between APS-C and FF. Too nice, maybe?

To be honest, I doubt the new 7D2 would be anything different from an APS-C. We still have to figure out if the sensor is going to be a new one or the old one.

 

[surfing_geek]

am i allowed to start dreaming about this again now the 650D has been announced? Might give some hints as to what to expect if the 7D2 were to come about.


The new 18MP hybrid APS-C sensor, the new video perks, touchscreen etc (who knows about whether it would be vari-angle though)


All this on top of the standard increases, maybe an extra fps or 2, better iso performance, Digic 5(+) or 2! Keep it all packaged in a roughly similar body to the 7D (Mag alloy etc).


Here's hoping Photokina brings something nice for us all

 

[Marine03]

The new 18MP hybrid APS-C sensor, the new video perks, touchscreen etc (who knows about whether it would be vari-angle though)


All this on top of the standard increases, maybe an extra fps or 2, better iso performance, Digic 5(+) or 2! Keep it all packaged in a roughly similar body to the 7D (Mag alloy etc).


Here's hoping Photokina brings something nice for us all

My hopes for the 70D and 7D2 are the new 22mp sensor we've heard rumors of. 70D getting Digic 5+ and 7D2 getting 2x 5+ so that would leave 70D at 7 or 8 FPS and 7D2 at 10FPS

I'd be fine with 18mp too I just want useable RAW ISO 3200

 

[Marsu42]

I'd be fine with 18mp too I just want useable RAW ISO 3200

I'm sure Canon will include the new multi-exposure jpeg noise reduction feature from the 650d in upcoming bodies, if that's what you want :-o ... they might even throw in 5d3's hdr mode to market away their problems in the dr & noise department, just be sure that the world around you doesn't move while shooting.

 

[Albi86]

I'd be fine with 18mp too I just want useable RAW ISO 3200

I'm sure Canon will include the new multi-exposure jpeg noise reduction feature from the 650d in upcoming bodies, if that's what you want :-o ... they might even throw in 5d3's hdr mode to market away their problems in the dr & noise department, just be sure that the world around you doesn't move while shooting.

This would work just with JPG and not with RAW, and sure as hell it's going to cost a lot in terms of sharpness. It will be good for JPG shooters who doesn't post-process, for the rest of us it will be as useless as picture styles and such things.

I find unlikely that the new crops will have a different sensor since in the past 550D, 600D, 60D and 7D all shared the same sensor. We should wait for a review to see how this new sensor performs.

BTW, ISO 3200 on a crop is way too much for the actual technology. Give me a fully usable ISO 1600 and I'm happy.

 

[Marine03]

I find unlikely that the new crops will have a different sensor since in the past 550D, 600D, 60D and 7D all shared the same sensor. We should wait for a review to see how this new sensor performs.

BTW, ISO 3200 on a crop is way too much for the actual technology. Give me a fully usable ISO 1600 and I'm happy.

I get a little bit frustrated, I see some people say they shoot 1600 on a 7D all day long, and others complain... same with just about every other camera I see... I've been considereing 5D2, 7D and 70D for a while and I see all sorts of different things.

I see a picture from a 7D at ISO 1000 or so and say to myself that looks nice, and then see 5D2 owners saying how horrible the 7D was at anything above 200. I myself have a 450D so I have no clue what to think at times.

 

[traveller]

I find unlikely that the new crops will have a different sensor since in the past 550D, 600D, 60D and 7D all shared the same sensor. We should wait for a review to see how this new sensor performs.

BTW, ISO 3200 on a crop is way too much for the actual technology. Give me a fully usable ISO 1600 and I'm happy.

I get a little bit frustrated, I see some people say they shoot 1600 on a 7D all day long, and others complain... same with just about every other camera I see... I've been considereing 5D2, 7D and 70D for a while and I see all sorts of different things.

I see a picture from a 7D at ISO 1000 or so and say to myself that looks nice, and then see 5D2 owners saying how horrible the 7D was at anything above 200. I myself have a 450D so I have no clue what to think at times.

Don't get frustrated, image quality is a subjective thing. If you're happy with the results that a camera gives at the ISO ratings you use, then it's the camera for you. Never listen to anyone else's opinion on image quality -unless of course, they are a paying customer!

 

[dlleno]

I find unlikely that the new crops will have a different sensor since in the past 550D, 600D, 60D and 7D all shared the same sensor. We should wait for a review to see how this new sensor performs.

thats true, and new sensors first appear in xxxD frequently, sometimes in xxD, and of course the 18MP sensor appeared in the 7D first before propgating out to the other crops. But in all cases the "new" sensor propogated out to the other crops. So in that sense I agree with you here, that if this truly is a new technology cycle, and higher ISO performing sensor, it will certainly appear in the 70D and even the 7D2 if it stays a 1.6.

But -- I'm just not yet convinced that this 18MP "new" sensor is actually new. Absent are statements such as "new, low-noise", or other magical terms, which I would have expected -- not just a spec list of ISO ranges, which to me sounds more like they slapped Digic 5 on top of the 7D sensor. To be sure, we'll have to wait a few days for the field testers to really discover its ISO performance. I worry that Canon took the same, tired old 18MP Sensor, re-fabbed it for phase detection AF, but made no real step forward in the technology cycle, i.e. ISO performance. I certainly hope I'm wrong; just being pessimistic.

what am I missing here (besides DxO telling us it sucks)?

BTW, ISO 3200 on a crop is way too much for the actual technology. Give me a fully usable ISO 1600 and I'm happy.

+1 on fully usable 1600. From what I've seen, 7D is a measureable improvement over the 40D, for example, but it doesn't make you do the hokey pokey , imho:-D. Digic 5 may make additional incremental (if marginal) improvments -- but what we really need is a game changer at 1600 and for that I think we will need a new sensor technology cycle or APS-H, not a re-worked version of the old 18.

 

[Chuck Alaimo]

I find unlikely that the new crops will have a different sensor since in the past 550D, 600D, 60D and 7D all shared the same sensor. We should wait for a review to see how this new sensor performs.

BTW, ISO 3200 on a crop is way too much for the actual technology. Give me a fully usable ISO 1600 and I'm happy.

I get a little bit frustrated, I see some people say they shoot 1600 on a 7D all day long, and others complain... same with just about every other camera I see... I've been considereing 5D2, 7D and 70D for a while and I see all sorts of different things.

I see a picture from a 7D at ISO 1000 or so and say to myself that looks nice, and then see 5D2 owners saying how horrible the 7D was at anything above 200. I myself have a 450D so I have no clue what to think at times.

It's really a matter of perspective - if you own and use and are used the the IQ of the 5d2, then yeah your bar is set by that quality and its hard to argue around that. But, if all you have is a 7D, then your forced to work with what you have, and do the best job you can do with it. I got my 7D in aug 2010, and have been mostly adding glass to the bag since then (10-22, 24-70 2.8, 70-200 2.8). This year with the mkiii released I have definitely found myself pondering the move to FF - but - I ended up opting to go for lighting instead (2 ab800's, softbox, beauty dish, grids, and a vagabond mini). Basically, I felt that the better bang for the buck was lighting. (I was about $200 shy of the mkiii before ordering the lights) I do not at all regret that decision...

With all that said, I shoot in lots of different conditions as an event, portrait and wedding tog, I use every ISO available from 100-6400. Do I like shooting at 3200 and up? No, I cringe when the lighting is that aweful. But in terms of noise and IQ, I do find lots of keepers at those higher ISO's. It really boils down to who your clients are and what your prices are. Most in the general public won't be pixel peeping. Most clients for weddings won't want anything larger than a 11x14 print, with the exception of the formal shots and most of those would be done outdoors where your ISO should be in the 100-800 range...

Sometimes, it's not the gear your using, its the photographer. Knowing your equipment and its limitations and how to wrk with those limitations....

Here's 2 done using my 7D - the wedding image was all natural light, using 70-200 lens. the portrait shot was done using 24-70 lens, and both AB800's...

 

[Albi86]

But -- I'm just not yet convinced that this 18MP "new" sensor is actually new. Absent are statements such as "new, low-noise", or other magical terms, which I would have expected -- not just a spec list of ISO ranges, which to me sounds more like they slapped Digic 5 on top of the 7D sensor. To be sure, we'll have to wait a few days for the field testers to really discover its ISO performance. I worry that Canon took the same, tired old 18MP Sensor, re-fabbed it for phase detection AF, but made no real step forward in the technology cycle, i.e. ISO performance. I certainly hope I'm wrong; just being pessimistic.

what am I missing here (besides DxO telling us it sucks)?

I sincerely hope you're wrong
As far as I've read, yes, sensors are different. The old one counts 18.7 total MP, while the new one 18.5. I take it for a hint that they're produced differently, although I cannot tell if differently means better too. Maybe Canon is reserving the flashiest marketing strikes for higher-end cameras.
But we're going to discover it quite soon anyway.

I get a little bit frustrated, I see some people say they shoot 1600 on a 7D all day long, and others complain... same with just about every other camera I see... I've been considereing 5D2, 7D and 70D for a while and I see all sorts of different things.

I see a picture from a 7D at ISO 1000 or so and say to myself that looks nice, and then see 5D2 owners saying how horrible the 7D was at anything above 200. I myself have a 450D so I have no clue what to think at times.

People who say that the 7D has a bad IQ and can't produce sharp pictures should seriously consider another hobby. Probably photography is not their thing.

That said, it depends a lot on what you do in post-processing. If you start pulling out details from the shadows, sharpening, tweaking things around... then yes, the old generation of crop sensors shows its limits. I never get fully tweakable images above ISO 400. After that it's all a matter of compromise. Images @ISO 800 are ok if they're good to begin with, otherwise not so cool. They can still look fine, even @ ISO 1600 and 3200, but only if you down-size them a lot. If you want to get sharp large prints at such ISO settings you need a FF. Or a better crop sensor. Now, raise that limit from ISO 400 to 1600 and I don't know what to do with a FF

 

[dlleno]

But -- I'm just not yet convinced that this 18MP "new" sensor is actually new. Absent are statements such as "new, low-noise", or other magical terms, which I would have expected -- not just a spec list of ISO ranges, which to me sounds more like they slapped Digic 5 on top of the 7D sensor. To be sure, we'll have to wait a few days for the field testers to really discover its ISO performance. I worry that Canon took the same, tired old 18MP Sensor, re-fabbed it for phase detection AF, but made no real step forward in the technology cycle, i.e. ISO performance. I certainly hope I'm wrong; just being pessimistic.

what am I missing here (besides DxO telling us it sucks)?

I sincerely hope you're wrong
As far as I've read, yes, sensors are different. The old one counts 18.7 total MP, while the new one 18.5. I take it for a hint that they're produced differently, although I cannot tell if differently means better too. Maybe Canon is reserving the flashiest marketing strikes for higher-end cameras.
But we're going to discover it quite soon anyway.

ok this is good -- the first real evidence that the sensor itself is a different animal, i.e. that we have an 18.5MP beast instead of 18.7. I sincerely hope I'm wrong too -- this would be very good if the 18.5MP sensor actually represented the next generation in ISO/IQ from the sensor itself. I would even do the hokey pokey; just not here

I get a little bit frustrated, I see some people say they shoot 1600 on a 7D all day long, and others complain... same with just about every other camera I see... I've been considereing 5D2, 7D and 70D for a while and I see all sorts of different things.

I see a picture from a 7D at ISO 1000 or so and say to myself that looks nice, and then see 5D2 owners saying how horrible the 7D was at anything above 200. I myself have a 450D so I have no clue what to think at times.

People who say that the 7D has a bad IQ and can't produce sharp pictures should seriously consider another hobby. Probably photography is not their thing.

That said, it depends a lot on what you do in post-processing. If you start pulling out details from the shadows, sharpening, tweaking things around... then yes, the old generation of crop sensors shows its limits. I never get fully tweakable images above ISO 400. After that it's all a matter of compromise. Images @ISO 800 are ok if they're good to begin with, otherwise not so cool. They can still look fine, even @ ISO 1600 and 3200, but only if you down-size them a lot. If you want to get sharp large prints at such ISO settings you need a FF. Or a better crop sensor. Now, raise that limit from ISO 400 to 1600 and I don't know what to do with a FF
[/quote]

yea thats not a lot different from my 40D, although there is still a clear advantage to the 7D. also -- 7D has monstor pixel density and very find pixel pitch, which means support and vibration control are all the more important. I'm really hoping this new 18.5MP sensor can, along with digic 5, deliver reliable/usable 1600 a cut above today's 7D.

 

[BRNexus6]

I want all the video features from the 5D Mark lll, swivel screen and headphone jack. Hopefully a new sensor with a one stop improvement in noise at high ISO compared to the 7D.

 

[x-vision]

But -- I'm just not yet convinced that this 18MP "new" sensor is actually new.

I sincerely hope you're wrong

If you think that the 5DIII has a "new" sensor compared to the 5DII, then yes, the 650D's sensor is also "new".

 

[RLPhoto]

I find unlikely that the new crops will have a different sensor since in the past 550D, 600D, 60D and 7D all shared the same sensor. We should wait for a review to see how this new sensor performs.

BTW, ISO 3200 on a crop is way too much for the actual technology. Give me a fully usable ISO 1600 and I'm happy.

I get a little bit frustrated, I see some people say they shoot 1600 on a 7D all day long, and others complain... same with just about every other camera I see... I've been considereing 5D2, 7D and 70D for a while and I see all sorts of different things.

I see a picture from a 7D at ISO 1000 or so and say to myself that looks nice, and then see 5D2 owners saying how horrible the 7D was at anything above 200. I myself have a 450D so I have no clue what to think at times.

It's really a matter of perspective - if you own and use and are used the the IQ of the 5d2, then yeah your bar is set by that quality and its hard to argue around that. But, if all you have is a 7D, then your forced to work with what you have, and do the best job you can do with it. I got my 7D in aug 2010, and have been mostly adding glass to the bag since then (10-22, 24-70 2.8, 70-200 2.8). This year with the mkiii released I have definitely found myself pondering the move to FF - but - I ended up opting to go for lighting instead (2 ab800's, softbox, beauty dish, grids, and a vagabond mini). Basically, I felt that the better bang for the buck was lighting. (I was about $200 shy of the mkiii before ordering the lights) I do not at all regret that decision...

With all that said, I shoot in lots of different conditions as an event, portrait and wedding tog, I use every ISO available from 100-6400. Do I like shooting at 3200 and up? No, I cringe when the lighting is that aweful. But in terms of noise and IQ, I do find lots of keepers at those higher ISO's. It really boils down to who your clients are and what your prices are. Most in the general public won't be pixel peeping. Most clients for weddings won't want anything larger than a 11x14 print, with the exception of the formal shots and most of those would be done outdoors where your ISO should be in the 100-800 range...

Sometimes, it's not the gear your using, its the photographer. Knowing your equipment and its limitations and how to wrk with those limitations....

Here's 2 done using my 7D - the wedding image was all natural light, using 70-200 lens. the portrait shot was done using 24-70 lens, and both AB800's...

Yep, I shoot all the time from 100-1600 ISO on the 7D. No hesititaion with that range but, I cringe when it gets to 3200-6400 ISO but I know thats the limit. if its a dire situation, the 12800 ISO setting is the last thing I use but its saved me before.

 

[Marsu42]

BTW, ISO 3200 on a crop is way too much for the actual technology. Give me a fully usable ISO 1600 and I'm happy.

+1 - but it won't happen with the 70d, only the ff 5d3 has *fully* usable iso 1600 retaining dynamic range (!) and very low noise.