Canon EOS 7D Mark II in 2014 [CR2]

[Eldar]

I am reading (most of) these posts with interest. It may be that someone else has touched on this, since the number of posts is fairly high, but I´ll give it a go.

I am not an expert on all the technical aspects of the bodies we are discussing. I am first and foremost a photographer, trying to get the best images with what I have. Currently I use 1DX and 5DIII as my main bodies, but I also have 1DIV and 7D. And I am looking forward to the 7DII. But my main concern is AF and not IQ. For everything that stands still, I prefer to use FF bodies (a few thousand reasons have been posted before this one). I have lots of high quality glass to get the framing right, so my interest for a cropped camera is only for long reach.

As I see it, the real benefit of a 1.6x sensor, besides cheaper lenses, is in combination with a 400/500/600mm tele, possibly combined with extenders. The AF system will work on a closer framed image and thus give me a better opportunity to secure focus on the specific part I want in focus. When I crop an image from a FF, it´s more of a gamble. But currently, the AF systems on both the 1DX and the 5DIII are so much better than the current 7D, that you don´t really have an advantage with a cropped sensor. So at the moment my 7D stays in the bag (actually at home). But with the 7DII, that may all change.

So, I cross my fingers and hope for a best possible AF system and good high-ISO performance (rather than very high resolution) on the 7DII. I´d be interested if some of you more technically competent could comment on this.

/Eldar

 

[Loswr]

... I cross my fingers and hope for a best possible AF system and good high-ISO performance (rather than very high resolution) on the 7DII.

I hope for the same thing. The theory that a crop sensor should produce a better image when focal length-limited is sound, but reality trumps theory and in practice, the 7D doesn't best the 1D X or 5DIII. So, I hope that a 7DII does...but I won't be surprised if, much like the new sensor in the 70D, there's not a whole lot (if any) IQ improvement over its predecessor.

 

[garyknrd]

I am reading (most of) these posts with interest. It may be that someone else has touched on this, since the number of posts is fairly high, but I´ll give it a go.

I am not an expert on all the technical aspects of the bodies we are discussing. I am first and foremost a photographer, trying to get the best images with what I have. Currently I use 1DX and 5DIII as my main bodies, but I also have 1DIV and 7D. And I am looking forward to the 7DII. But my main concern is AF and not IQ. For everything that stands still, I prefer to use FF bodies (a few thousand reasons have been posted before this one). I have lots of high quality glass to get the framing right, so my interest for a cropped camera is only for long reach.

As I see it, the real benefit of a 1.6x sensor, besides cheaper lenses, is in combination with a 400/500/600mm tele, possibly combined with extenders. The AF system will work on a closer framed image and thus give me a better opportunity to secure focus on the specific part I want in focus. When I crop an image from a FF, it´s more of a gamble. But currently, the AF systems on both the 1DX and the 5DIII are so much better than the current 7D, that you don´t really have an advantage with a cropped sensor. So at the moment my 7D stays in the bag (actually at home). But with the 7DII, that may all change.

So, I cross my fingers and hope for a best possible AF system and good high-ISO performance (rather than very high resolution) on the 7DII. I´d be interested if some of you more technically competent could comment on this.

/Eldar

Man you are reading my mind. Exactly same thing here. IQ at this point is last on my list. With AF being on top.
As others though am hoping for better IQ too?

 

[jrista]

I am reading (most of) these posts with interest. It may be that someone else has touched on this, since the number of posts is fairly high, but I´ll give it a go.

I am not an expert on all the technical aspects of the bodies we are discussing. I am first and foremost a photographer, trying to get the best images with what I have. Currently I use 1DX and 5DIII as my main bodies, but I also have 1DIV and 7D. And I am looking forward to the 7DII. But my main concern is AF and not IQ. For everything that stands still, I prefer to use FF bodies (a few thousand reasons have been posted before this one). I have lots of high quality glass to get the framing right, so my interest for a cropped camera is only for long reach.

As I see it, the real benefit of a 1.6x sensor, besides cheaper lenses, is in combination with a 400/500/600mm tele, possibly combined with extenders. The AF system will work on a closer framed image and thus give me a better opportunity to secure focus on the specific part I want in focus. When I crop an image from a FF, it´s more of a gamble. But currently, the AF systems on both the 1DX and the 5DIII are so much better than the current 7D, that you don´t really have an advantage with a cropped sensor. So at the moment my 7D stays in the bag (actually at home). But with the 7DII, that may all change.

So, I cross my fingers and hope for a best possible AF system and good high-ISO performance (rather than very high resolution) on the 7DII. I´d be interested if some of you more technically competent could comment on this.

/Eldar

Man you are reading my mind. Exactly same thing here. IQ at this point is last on my list. With AF being on top.
As others though am hoping for better IQ too?

I've made the same argument in the past. To me, both AF as well as frame rate come before sensor IQ. I don't see any real drawbacks to the 7D IQ as it is, though. I think my previous example posted a few responses up demonstrates that the 7D can extract more than enough detail to overcome any drawbacks such as higher noise (especially, as Eldar stated, when paired with a 400/500/600 and a TC).

I would go so far to state that one of the primary reasons the 1D X can do as well as the 7D is because of its AF system. The 7D's 19pt AF, while good, definitely has it's drawbacks. It's margin of error is rather large, and any time it decides to confirm focus, its really hit or miss...you might actually be missfocused enough that the shot (or even a whole sequence of shots) are a bust.

I think my top two biggest wants for the 7D II are 61pt AF and 10fps. Give me those, even with a lower noise 18mp APS-C sensor, and I'll be happy.

 

[garyknrd]

Yea, that 7D was not an easy camera for me to use. It took me 4-5 months before I really started to appreciate the information you could extract from the photos. My sharpest and most detailed shots are with it. With out a doubt what so ever for me to say that. I love detailed photos.

But? I didn't realize how poor the AF was until I went with a IV camera. For me it was a trade off well worth it. And I also think I would go with a 1DX or 5D III before ever going back to the 7D. Just for the AF.
The mark IV is the easiest camera I have ever worked with. But I cannot push it near as far as I did the 7D. The info is just not there to use and push.
My experience anyway, and my way of post processing. What really amazed me is in PS I could de noise and sharpen the 7D back to incredible detailed pics. With the IV I cannot. In my mind that is pixel density at work. Just amazing.

www.flickr.com/photos/avianphotos

 

[jrista]

Yea, that 7D was not an easy camera for me to use. It took me 4-5 months before I really started to appreciate the information you could extract from the photos. My sharpest and most detailed shots are with it. With out a doubt what so ever for me to say that. I love detailed photos.

But? I didn't realize how poor the AF was until I went with a IV camera. For me it was a trade off well worth it. And I also think I would go with a 1DX or 5D III before ever going back to the 7D. Just for the AF.
The mark IV is the easiest camera I have ever worked with. But I cannot push it near as far as I did the 7D. The info is just not there to use and push.
My experience anyway, and my way of post processing. What really amazed me is in PS I could de noise and sharpen the 7D back to incredible detailed pics. With the IV I cannot. In my mind that is pixel density at work. Just amazing.

I haven't had the opportunity to use a 1D IV, however I have used the 5D III. It blew my mind how much better the AF system was than the 7D's. It was not only faster, but when it locked, it LOCKED. You could tell, even just in the viewfinder, that it either nailed focus, or missed it miserably. With the 7D, its "locked" range is wide enough that it can affect the final result, yet not really be entirely clear in the viewfinder. It might confirm focus, but not actually be solidly focused on whatever was under your AF point. I think that is probably the most serious drawback of the 7D.

If one was comparing resolution...say a full-frame 7D shot to a cropped 1D X shot, downscaling the 7D to the 1D X size would eliminate the issue with the 7D focus. But if you need to crop a lot (i.e. the subject was only 25-35% of the frame), then the missfocus issue was a real big issue. I consider the addition of a true professional grade, reticulated AF system, even if it ends up being something new like a 41pt system rather than the same 61pt system, to be THE critical differentiator between the 70D and 7D II. I would like 10fps, rather than 8fps, but the AF system really needs a bump up to literal "professional" grade.

Like you, at least since getting Nik and Topaz denoise tools (particularly DeNoise 5), I have not found the increased noise of the 7D to be an issue. Backgrounds may look nasty right out of camera, but within a minute of running them through DeNoise they look stunning.

www.flickr.com/photos/avianphotos

Your photography is excellent, BTW!

 

[garyknrd]

Thnk's for the complement.
I would love to get my hands on a 1DX. I have seen some amazing shots with it and the 600 II and 500 II. But it aint going to happen for me. Just got the IV so I put the brakes on my spending for the next two years. Actually I rolled over my photography account and two years is my lock in period... :-\
If the 7D II is a winner I may have to eat beans for a while. Or start now... ;D
Been following you guys sites here also. Nice stuff.

 

[northbyten]

Eh I bought the 550D over the 7D since the image quality was the same and I could live without the improved AF/burst/ergonomics etc. Yes I did look up comparisons.

For me the 7D MK II has to be above the image quality of the 700D/70D to be considered a worthy successor

 

[anthony11]

So, I cross my fingers and hope for a best possible AF system and good high-ISO performance (rather than very high resolution) on the 7DII. I´d be interested if some of you more technically competent could comment on this.

I agree. Were the 7DII to appear with quality AF and better high-ISO performance than my 5DII I'd trade in a heartbeat -- but Canon won't do that because they want to continue forcing the sale of a $4k+ body for indoor shooting. They'll crank up the pixel count so that the new-gen sensor tech is offset and we won't see substantially better real performance. Note that I write *real* performance, as opposed to the red-herring of claims based on stronger JPEG/JFIF NR without actually improving the quality of what comes off the sensor.

 

[scottkinfw]

Outsanding!

Yea, that 7D was not an easy camera for me to use. It took me 4-5 months before I really started to appreciate the information you could extract from the photos. My sharpest and most detailed shots are with it. With out a doubt what so ever for me to say that. I love detailed photos.

But? I didn't realize how poor the AF was until I went with a IV camera. For me it was a trade off well worth it. And I also think I would go with a 1DX or 5D III before ever going back to the 7D. Just for the AF.
The mark IV is the easiest camera I have ever worked with. But I cannot push it near as far as I did the 7D. The info is just not there to use and push.
My experience anyway, and my way of post processing. What really amazed me is in PS I could de noise and sharpen the 7D back to incredible detailed pics. With the IV I cannot. In my mind that is pixel density at work. Just amazing.

www.flickr.com/photos/avianphotos

 

[Krob78]

Outsanding!

Yea, that 7D was not an easy camera for me to use. It took me 4-5 months before I really started to appreciate the information you could extract from the photos. My sharpest and most detailed shots are with it. With out a doubt what so ever for me to say that. I love detailed photos.

But? I didn't realize how poor the AF was until I went with a IV camera. For me it was a trade off well worth it. And I also think I would go with a 1DX or 5D III before ever going back to the 7D. Just for the AF.
The mark IV is the easiest camera I have ever worked with. But I cannot push it near as far as I did the 7D. The info is just not there to use and push.
My experience anyway, and my way of post processing. What really amazed me is in PS I could de noise and sharpen the 7D back to incredible detailed pics. With the IV I cannot. In my mind that is pixel density at work. Just amazing.

www.flickr.com/photos/avianphotos

I also think I would go with a 1DX or 5D III before ever going back to the 7D. Just for the AF.

I can understand and appreciate that. I thought the AF on the 7d was fantastic once I conquered it... It was far superior to the 60d I purchased or any of the Rebels I've owned.

That being said, I had no idea how incredible the AF would be on the 5D III when I purchased it! After using it for 6 months, I came to the realization that I wasn't using my 7d at all anymore... I then took it out for a couple of jaunts to the lake and wow, I kept putting it down and grabbing my 5d III... I have way more keepers with the 5d III than my 7d.

I did take quite a bit of time to research and put into practice, the tweaking of my 5d III settings and have improved even more since then...

I likely wouldn't pick up another 7d, though still very fond of it but I would definitely like to see what the MK II will bring to the table with regard to AF. I think they are going to make it quite mouth watering...

 

[garyknrd]

Outsanding!

Yea, that 7D was not an easy camera for me to use. It took me 4-5 months before I really started to appreciate the information you could extract from the photos. My sharpest and most detailed shots are with it. With out a doubt what so ever for me to say that. I love detailed photos.

But? I didn't realize how poor the AF was until I went with a IV camera. For me it was a trade off well worth it. And I also think I would go with a 1DX or 5D III before ever going back to the 7D. Just for the AF.
The mark IV is the easiest camera I have ever worked with. But I cannot push it near as far as I did the 7D. The info is just not there to use and push.
My experience anyway, and my way of post processing. What really amazed me is in PS I could de noise and sharpen the 7D back to incredible detailed pics. With the IV I cannot. In my mind that is pixel density at work. Just amazing.

www.flickr.com/photos/avianphotos

I also think I would go with a 1DX or 5D III before ever going back to the 7D. Just for the AF.

I can understand and appreciate that. I thought the AF on the 7d was fantastic once I conquered it... It was far superior to the 60d I purchased or any of the Rebels I've owned.

That being said, I had no idea how incredible the AF would be on the 5D III when I purchased it! After using it for 6 months, I came to the realization that I wasn't using my 7d at all anymore... I then took it out for a couple of jaunts to the lake and wow, I kept putting it down and grabbing my 5d III... I have way more keepers with the 5d III than my 7d.

I did take quite a bit of time to research and put into practice, the tweaking of my 5d III settings and have improved even more since then...

I likely wouldn't pick up another 7d, though still very fond of it but I would definitely like to see what the MK II will bring to the table with regard to AF. I think they are going to make it quite mouth watering...

Sorry, have been out in the field shooting Pittas for the last few days. Beautiful birds.

Agree totally. The Mark II has some pretty big shoes to fill at this point IMO. I hope Canon comes threw with the goods. If not I will keep shooting the IV.
G

 

[Krob78]

Outsanding!

Yea, that 7D was not an easy camera for me to use. It took me 4-5 months before I really started to appreciate the information you could extract from the photos. My sharpest and most detailed shots are with it. With out a doubt what so ever for me to say that. I love detailed photos.

But? I didn't realize how poor the AF was until I went with a IV camera. For me it was a trade off well worth it. And I also think I would go with a 1DX or 5D III before ever going back to the 7D. Just for the AF.
The mark IV is the easiest camera I have ever worked with. But I cannot push it near as far as I did the 7D. The info is just not there to use and push.
My experience anyway, and my way of post processing. What really amazed me is in PS I could de noise and sharpen the 7D back to incredible detailed pics. With the IV I cannot. In my mind that is pixel density at work. Just amazing.

www.flickr.com/photos/avianphotos

I also think I would go with a 1DX or 5D III before ever going back to the 7D. Just for the AF.

I can understand and appreciate that. I thought the AF on the 7d was fantastic once I conquered it... It was far superior to the 60d I purchased or any of the Rebels I've owned.

That being said, I had no idea how incredible the AF would be on the 5D III when I purchased it! After using it for 6 months, I came to the realization that I wasn't using my 7d at all anymore... I then took it out for a couple of jaunts to the lake and wow, I kept putting it down and grabbing my 5d III... I have way more keepers with the 5d III than my 7d.

I did take quite a bit of time to research and put into practice, the tweaking of my 5d III settings and have improved even more since then...

I likely wouldn't pick up another 7d, though still very fond of it but I would definitely like to see what the MK II will bring to the table with regard to AF. I think they are going to make it quite mouth watering...

Sorry, have been out in the field shooting Pittas for the last few days. Beautiful birds.

Agree totally. The Mark II has some pretty big shoes to fill at this point IMO. I hope Canon comes threw with the goods. If not I will keep shooting the IV.
G

Well, I have an overall good feeling about the 7D Mk II. I think they know they set the bar high when the original came out and given the popularity of the camera, my guess is that the Mk II won't be anything to sneeze at... That being said, who knows!

 

[Marsu42]

Well, I have an overall good feeling about the 7D Mk II. I think they know they set the bar high when the original came out and given the popularity of the camera, my guess is that the Mk II won't be anything to sneeze at... That being said, who knows!

Some Canon big shot also said so in a recent interview, they know after all the sensor and feature recycling (sans adding some gimmicks) it's time for them to have a showcase model again that shines without compromise... let's hope the 7d2 won't be so expensive that you could buy a used aps-h 1d4 for it, which afaik also isn't something to sneeze at

 

[Krob78]

Well, I have an overall good feeling about the 7D Mk II. I think they know they set the bar high when the original came out and given the popularity of the camera, my guess is that the Mk II won't be anything to sneeze at... That being said, who knows!

Some Canon big shot also said so in a recent interview, they know after all the sensor and feature recycling (sans adding some gimmicks) it's time for them to have a showcase model again that shines without compromise... let's hope the 7d2 won't be so expensive that you could buy a used aps-h 1d4 for it, which afaik also isn't something to sneeze at

Given where the new 70d came in at, I have a feeling the new 7d Mk II won't come in too much different than the original 7D body, price wise... Maybe just a little more... I'm guessing $1600 - $1800 range... better yet, I'll guess $1599 to $1699... $1799 tops... ;D

 

[Marsu42]

I have a feeling the new 7d Mk II won't come in too much different than the original 7D body

I'll do a price guess poll once the specs are out as a [CR3] or from Canon ... but remember the $3500 5d3 which also is an "above mainstream" model, everybody was surprised to shocked then. And since you can save thousands of $$$ (and weight/bulk) by not buying 600mm lenses with a crop body, Canon might want to take a premium for the "top of the line" birding and semi-pro sports model.

 

[Krob78]

I have a feeling the new 7d Mk II won't come in too much different than the original 7D body

I'll do a price guess poll once the specs are out as a [CR3] or from Canon ... but remember the $3500 5d3 which also is an "above mainstream" model, everybody was surprised to shocked then. And since you can save thousands of $$$ (and weight/bulk) by not buying 600mm lenses with a crop body, Canon might want to take a premium for the "top of the line" birding and semi-pro sports model.

Wasn't the $3500 list for the body with kit lens? I just don't remember!

Anyway, you could well be right about that. It is after all the flagship. I think it will depend on the specs. I just don't see them going over $2000 although there is a lot of speculation that it will come in between $2000 and $2500. I hope it's under $2,000 USD. Given the 5d3 pricing, I'd admit you may be correct but I'll continue to hold out that the 7d2 pricing will keep it in the gap that I suggest. That is a price gap that doesn't need to be void! We shall see soon enough I suppose!

All the best!

 

[jrista]

I have a feeling the new 7d Mk II won't come in too much different than the original 7D body

I'll do a price guess poll once the specs are out as a [CR3] or from Canon ... but remember the $3500 5d3 which also is an "above mainstream" model, everybody was surprised to shocked then. And since you can save thousands of $$$ (and weight/bulk) by not buying 600mm lenses with a crop body, Canon might want to take a premium for the "top of the line" birding and semi-pro sports model.

If the 7D II comes out with the 20.2mp sensor from the 70D, I can easily foresee it being pretty cheap, no more than $1800. I mean, who would buy it, really, if that is what Canon ends up doing after actual Canon employees mentioned a couple times that they were going to so something amazing with the 7D sensor.

If the 7D II comes out with something like 24mp APS-C that improves ISO 100 noise, maybe uses a BSI design *with* split pixels like the 20.2mp sensor, and still offers everything else (10fps, 61pt AF, same durable body design and weather sealing of the 5D III), etc. Then I think it will clock in over $2000, maybe even $2500.

I really can't see Canon gimping the 7D II with the same sensor as the 70D. It just wouldn't sell. I think most people expect there to be some differentiation between the XXD and 7D line now, and reusing the sensor would diminish that differentiation. It would deliver on their previous comments to make the 7D II something special, too...and maybe give everyone a glimpse of what we might see in Canon's BigMP offering.

I have a feeling the new 7d Mk II won't come in too much different than the original 7D body

I'll do a price guess poll once the specs are out as a [CR3] or from Canon ... but remember the $3500 5d3 which also is an "above mainstream" model, everybody was surprised to shocked then. And since you can save thousands of $$$ (and weight/bulk) by not buying 600mm lenses with a crop body, Canon might want to take a premium for the "top of the line" birding and semi-pro sports model.

Wasn't the $3500 list for the body with kit lens? I just don't remember!

Anyway, you could well be right about that. It is after all the flagship. I think it will depend on the specs. I just don't see them going over $2000 although there is a lot of speculation that it will come in between $2000 and $2500. I hope it's under $2,000 USD. Given the 5d3 pricing, I'd admit you may be correct but I'll continue to hold out that the 7d2 pricing will keep it in the gap that I suggest. That is a price gap that doesn't need to be void! We shall see soon enough I suppose!

All the best!

The list price for the 5D III body only is $3499. It is MORE with the kit lens. If the 7D II really gets an upgrade, I can see it falling in the $2000+ range. If Canon is trying to reposition it as a true professional grade entry, and considering the pricing of all their other recent camera releases, inflation, exchange rates, etc. I can see it getting a $2000 price tag at least.

 

[Marsu42]

If the 7D II comes out with something like 24mp APS-C that improves ISO 100 noise, maybe uses a BSI design *with* split pixels like the 20.2mp sensor, and still offers everything else (10fps, 61pt AF, same durable body design and weather sealing of the 5D III), etc. Then I think it will clock in over $2000, maybe even $2500.

+1, my money (not that I have it) is also on a new sensor, a late release date and a $2500 price remembering of the interview I mentioned above.

 

[whothafunk]

I really can't see Canon gimping the 7D II with the same sensor as the 70D. It just wouldn't sell. I think most people expect there to be some differentiation between the XXD and 7D line now, and reusing the sensor would diminish that differentiation. It would deliver on their previous comments to make the 7D II something special, too...and maybe give everyone a glimpse of what we might see in Canon's BigMP offering.

I call BS. 7DII will be purchased mostly by people who know what 7DII is and what it offers. They know it will (most probably) offer superior FPS, AF, ergonomics, (dual) CF card, 100% VF and 1x magnification, advanced fuctions, etc etc etc, not to mention I am pretty sure it will have Digic6 processor, which is said to even further improve noise performance up to 6400 ISO point, and probably image quality. 70D with 20.2MP and Digic5+ vs 7DII 20.2MP and (Dual?) Digic6(+) processor. It has got to have better ISO and IQ, doesnt matter if its the same MP count.

And since when did people transfer from "MP doesnt count" to "MP is #1 priority"?