Canon EOS R5 Mark II in the hands of the lucky? [CR1]

[AlanF]

Do you think for wildlife photography (birds for me) the r1 or r5 mark ii will have the edge ?

As we do not know the specs of either, none of us can say.

 

[Michael Clark]

I suspect that for a lot of 5DIV shooters -- like me -- the R5II will be the upgrade that brings us into the mirrorless world. Since I primarily shoot stills, the original R5 wasn't quite worth the spend. But with improved autofocus and sensor, plus even better video, the R5II will be a bigger jump in quality (not to mention that my 5DIV is now 3 years older)

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Frankly, I think a reduced price R5 with firmware upgrades is going to be more economical for a 5D MKIV shooter than an R5 MKII at full price. The qualitative improvements of the sensor for MKII vs. MKI will probably be minimal; the video quality already vastly exceeds the 5D MK IV with unlimited standard def 4k 30p, and the autofocus is already incredible. Anything above and beyond the R5 MKI will therefore be much more incremental than what was achieved 5D MKIV > R5.

I'm thinking there will be more than few current 5D Mark IV shooters in each camp.

Some 5D Mark IV shooters will go for the reduced price R5. Others will go for the full price R5 Mark II. You won't have the former to any real extent until just before or just after you also have the latter. (That is, the release of the R5 Mark II should push the price of the R5 down around the time of the R5 Mark II release.)

 

[Michael Clark]

Blackout is not a deal breaker, frankly I didn’t even know it was a problem till someone mentioned it. I have no problem with BIF or fast moving animals. Really not sure if “no blackout” is gonna make any difference to people missing or getting a shot.

It’s getting to the point where people want the damn camera do everything for them. How fun is that?

And what’s wrong with the battery? I get 1000-1200 shots easily. And if it dies, ooo I change it with another one. Don’t wanna do that, buy a grip. Lol

That's kind of hard to do for the R7, though...

 

[Michael Clark]

I saw some YouTube video where they were saying the shutter sound comes in handy when photographing models, who key their pose changes off the sound of the shutter clicks.

Seems like the strobes popping off should be a clue...

 

[Michael Clark]

If you photograph a model in 99,999999% of cases there's no reason to use the ES, especially when we're talking R5, as everybody knows that RAW bit depth with ES is 12bit vs 14bit with EFCS and mech shutter. And if you're using strobes (again, with R5, but also with 95% of mirrorless today) then no ES, as strobes doesn't work with it. I think just R3, Z8, Z9, A9 and very few other flagship cameras can use strobes with ES.

Talking about R6, very few of the people I shoot can hear the shutter sound even with ECFS (mech shutter is jut a bit noisier, but not by far); anyway if shooting in the studio the key for changing pose is the strobe flashing. The BIP of the AF is much more noisier then the shutterblades.
And anyway, 4 out of 5 times if I'm shooting indoor a model, she wants music, usually loud enough, so she can't hear anything, no shutter and no bip.

Don't trust what showmen and clowns say on YT, most of them are not photographers, just entertainers and influencers; the know nothing about actual photography work, and half of them doesn't even study the product they are promoting in that very video, I see big mistakes and bullsht all the times.
I remember a woman telling "you can't use external flash and/or trigger with M6 II" in a comparison with similar cameras, I commented "well, so what is that big hot shoe for? You see, the silver quad thing on top of the camera? The thing I used last week to do a photoshoot with, surprise, a trigger mounted on it?", and she answered "I'm no technician, I help people choose what best suits them. If you want to know tech specs then my channel is not for you, I talk about real use cases and EMOTIONS". I said "yeah, you no tech b*tch, but saying something so much false and misleading as M6 II has no ext flash capability is not acceptable. So how much did S o N y paid you for all those lies, as you are saying good things only on them and bashing all the other brands in the comparison?". She blocked me.

It is the case that one can't have an eye level VF *and* flash sync at the same time with the M6 Mark II. You must choose one or the other. That's the biggest reason I never bought one. The other was that I was pessimistic about how long the shoe mounted EVF would last on the sidelines of sporting events I shoot.

 

[Michael Clark]

Important R5 Mk II feature:
* Lowers price of current R5

... but probably by less than many are hoping.

 

[Michael Clark]

I doubt bloggers are testing the new R5 II if the announcement day is in Q4. Usually they have only 1-2 weeks to play with preproduction units.

I doubt this post is about bloggers/reviewers. It's about a very limited number of field testers, such as Canon Explorers of Light and similar prominent full time photogs, putting the cameras through their paces in their daily workflow to find the software glitches has Canon has missed up to this point.

 

[Michael Clark]

All this speculation and suddenly one day Gordon Laing/DP Review/Jared Polin/Manny Ortiz/Kai Wong/Petapixel et al all drop simultaneous hands-on videos.

I wonder what they think of us floundering around in the dark while they play with these new toys.

Those guys are not testers, they're reviewers. This rumor is about field testing by a very limited number of full time working photographers with close ties to Canon. They'll typically use the prototypes for several months. The reviewers get the preproduction units for a few days (or even a few hours) each within a few weeks before release (not before announcement, before release).

 

[Michael Clark]

One photographer. One photographer working under a special agreement with Canon for the specific purpose of testing the camera. One photographer who had instant access to Canon at any time if he needed it. One photographer who had other bodies to shoot with.

That's not at all comparable to releasing a new body to the general public and expecting professional photographers who are answerable to their employers to shoot with it without having had the opportunity to thoroughly try it out at other events. If you really think that most Olympic level photographers are going to go to the Olympics not having the had the opportunity to use the camera for several months and at multiple events beforehand, go ahead and believe that.

Canon will release the R1 on roughly the same schedule as they released previous 1Dx bodies in order to give the bulk of Olympic level professionals time to get familiar with and use the body at other events.

I seem to recall that production delays in 2012 forced a lot of shooters to use the 1D X for the first time after picking them up from CPS in London. The only units shipped prior to the games went to the largest agencies. Anyone else with IOC press credentials that was also a CPS member could pick their preordered body up in London at the CPS on-site facility. Almost everyone else had to wait until after the games had started before additional bodies began shipping.

The body was officially released June 12, 2012, but there were very limited numbers of bodies available to ship. The London games started on July 27.

The 1D Mark IV to 1D X was no minor upgrade. It was APS-H to FF!

Canon even went so far as to release the EOS 1D X AF Setting Guide Book before the camera shipped so potential users could bone up on it before they even had the camera in hand.

 

[Michael Clark]

Proven wrong? So, all those other summer games where Canon released the camera with enough time for photographers to become familiar with it don't count? So, the fact that they did in actuality release their flagship 1DX III in January 2020, 7 months before the scheduled Tokyo Summer games does not count? The fact is that no one, including Canon, knew if the Tokyo games would be held in 2021. And thus the availability of pre-release R3s would have not been scheduled to correspond in any way with the 2021 games. Did you happen to forget all that?

So, no, your example proved no one wrong. Only proved that you were looking to take someone down...and failed.

So what happened in 2012, when the FF 1D X that replaced the APS-H 1D Mark IV didn't release (in very limited numbers) until mid-June?

 

[scyrene]

Do you think for wildlife photography (birds for me) the r1 or r5 mark ii will have the edge ?

As Alan says above, impossible to say with any certainty but looking back at historical precedent, the 5 series is less fast but an all-rounder; for a long time it has also had higher resolution. The 1 series is more robust, faster, bulkier, and for a long time lower resolution. Unless Canon goes with a fairly radical shakeup, which is possible, I would use that as a guide. I've seen superlative wildlife shots taken with both, as location and technique are arguably much more important than gear.

 

[AlanF]

As Alan says above, impossible to say with any certainty but looking back at historical precedent, the 5 series is less fast but an all-rounder; for a long time it has also had higher resolution. The 1 series is more robust, faster, bulkier, and for a long time lower resolution. Unless Canon goes with a fairly radical shakeup, which is possible, I would use that as a guide. I've seen superlative wildlife shots taken with both, as location and technique are arguably much more important than gear.

That's right, modern gear is just so good that it is indeed the photographer that counts and what they find most convenient.

 

[GMCPhotographics]

That's right, modern gear is just so good that it is indeed the photographer that counts and what they find most convenient.

Absolutely. Until recently, all my shooting needs were covred by a pair of rather old 5Diii's...still getting the pictures and turning in great results. What is drawing me to the RF mount is the newer AI (and little else).
However, the AF code advances since the R5 are quite a bit more advanced. The R3 and R6ii have introduced a superior and more versatile AF system that is found in the current R5. We are in the odd scenario where the entry level full frame camera (R8) has a superior AF system that the "do it all" pro / semi pro R5 camera body. Currently the R5 has the more resoution and high frame rate, but a weaker AF system.
I would really like a pair of R5's. However, what is holding me back is that I own an R8 and i don't want to buy a "better" camera with a worse AF system than my R8.

 

[AlanF]

Absolutely. Until recently, all my shooting needs were covred by a pair of rather old 5Diii's...still getting the pictures and turning in great results. What is drawing me to the RF mount is the newer AI (and little else).
However, the AF code advances since the R5 are quite a bit more advanced. The R3 and R6ii have introduced a superior and more versatile AF system that is found in the current R5. We are in the odd scenario where the entry level full frame camera (R8) has a superior AF system that the "do it all" pro / semi pro R5 camera body. Currently the R5 has the more resoution and high frame rate, but a weaker AF system.
I would really like a pair of R5's. However, what is holding me back is that I own an R8 and i don't want to buy a "better" camera with a worse AF system than my R8.

I have the R7, which has the newer system, but the way I use the AF gives it no advantage over the R5. I use a fixed centre point BBF for birds or other subjects that are tiny and hidden and I need to choose where to focus as the camera will never find it, or BBF full screen eyeAF tracking for birds where the camera does the job wherever they are. And I can flick between the two. A more sophisticated user with different needs may find the newer system better.

 

[GMCPhotographics]

I have the R7, which has the newer system, but the way I use the AF gives it no advantage over the R5. I use a fixed centre point BBF for birds or other subjects that are tiny and hidden and I need to choose where to focus as the camera will never find it, or BBF full screen eyeAF tracking for birds where the camera does the job wherever they are. And I can flick between the two. A more sophisticated user with different needs may find the newer system better.

It's of a similar generation but it is different. The R6ii/R8 have an Auto subject detection method, where as the R7 requires the user to select between people, animals, vehicles or none manually (via a custom button or via a menu dive). It does share the same number of AF area zones. However, from a hardware point of view, the AF system has only 651 points to choose from, compared to the 4897 AF points on the R6ii. The R6ii also have 1053 cross-type points. The R5 has 1053 AF points in total and doesn't have the same detection modes or the AF zone options.
The Electronic view finder resoution is also slightly superior on the R6ii to the R7, but inferior to the R5.
How these figures, hardware and firmware translates to real world AF performance in your specific use case scenario is irrelevant compared to "getting the shot". Photographers turned in great photos before the R7/R7/R6/R5 even existed. So you you are very correct...it's the photographer that maketh the photo, not the camera's specs.
For me i'm really happy with my R8. Soon I'll have an R6ii as my primary shooter. I'm happy to wait for an R5ii when every that's launched. I suspect that it might push the AF game on a notch over all of the other current cameras..and then we'll all be moaning "when will Canon down stream all this AI tech?"
I certainly will be

 

[koenkooi]

I have the R7, which has the newer system, but the way I use the AF gives it no advantage over the R5. I use a fixed centre point BBF for birds or other subjects that are tiny and hidden and I need to choose where to focus as the camera will never find it, or BBF full screen eyeAF tracking for birds where the camera does the job wherever they are. And I can flick between the two. A more sophisticated user with different needs may find the newer system better.

To illustrate what happens when someone tries to unsuccessfully outsmart the AF:

I was taking a picture of an Echinacea flower when a hummingbird moth (2nd sighting in my life!) flew by and hovered in front of another flower for short time:

By the time I realized I had the AF set to a single point in the centre instead of a zone, the moth was gone. I'm now resizing zones instead of switching to single point on my R8

(And I have the AF-ON button set to spot AF, I should have used that for the flower)

 

[Czardoom]

Absolutely. Until recently, all my shooting needs were covred by a pair of rather old 5Diii's...still getting the pictures and turning in great results. What is drawing me to the RF mount is the newer AI (and little else).
However, the AF code advances since the R5 are quite a bit more advanced. The R3 and R6ii have introduced a superior and more versatile AF system that is found in the current R5. We are in the odd scenario where the entry level full frame camera (R8) has a superior AF system that the "do it all" pro / semi pro R5 camera body. Currently the R5 has the more resoution and high frame rate, but a weaker AF system.
I would really like a pair of R5's. However, what is holding me back is that I own an R8 and i don't want to buy a "better" camera with a worse AF system than my R8.

It is arguable that the newer AF found in the R7, R8 and R6 II is "superior". More versatile perhaps, but based on months of participating in various FB groups, the added complexity of the newer AF system seems to give people more problems than advantages. The fact that tracking works in all the AF zones is very confusing to many users, and most recommendations from experienced birders is to turn off subject detection and assign a button to turn it on, as most users using a small AF zone do not want the tracking to go beyond the AF zone. Of course, forum dweelers see something new in a camera and whine and complain that their older camera doesn't have it. So they have been wishing for firmware updates for months now. Sometimes you need to be careful what you wish for!

 

[AlanF]

It is arguable that the newer AF found in the R7, R8 and R6 II is "superior". More versatile perhaps, but based on months of participating in various FB groups, the added complexity of the newer AF system seems to give people more problems that advantages. The fact that tracking works in all the AF zones is very confusing to many users, and most recommendations from experienced birders is to turn off subject detection and assign a button to turn it on, as most users using a small AF zone do not want the tracking to go beyond the AF zone. Of course, forum dweelers see something new in a camera and whine and complain that their older camera doesn't have it. So they have been wishing for firmware updates for months now. Sometimes you need to be careful what you wish for!

My motto is KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid.

 

[neuroanatomist]

My motto is KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid.

But there needs to be exposure zebras for stills, a Fibonacci spiral grid option in the viewfinder, aperture bracketing, a readout of the exact battery percentage remaining, AF point-linked spot metering, and about a bazillion more one-off features that 'would be so simple for Canon to add in firmware'.

 

[AlanF]

But there needs to be exposure zebras for stills, a Fibonacci spiral grid option in the viewfinder, aperture bracketing, a readout of the exact battery percentage remaining, AF point-linked spot metering, and about a bazillion more one-off features that 'would be so simple for Canon to add in firmware'.

"The guiding motto in the life of every natural philosopher should be, Seek simplicity and distrust it." - Alfred North Whitehead. For philosopher, read photographer.