Canon Full Frame Mirrorless is Definitely Coming, and The Wait Won't Be as Long as We Thought

[BillB]

There would need to be a much more significant benefit in size and weight than we've seen from the Sony GM series to necessitate a change from the EF mount.

I would be curious if over the years Canon has identified other ways to improve on the EF mount. That could be interesting. Less clipped bokeh?

My understanding is that the mirrorbox is the source of the clipped bokeh, so that problem might go away with mirrorless.

 

[ahsanford]

If they do use a recycled 5DIV sensor, I think the camera would have to have a price below the 5DIV if they want to move sales. At the same price level, I don't know how many people would take a EVF over an OVF, especially for a camera with the 5DIV's Liveview capabilities, which you ought to use if you are using a tripod. If Canon wants to introduce a mirrorless at the 5DIV price level, I think they would want to have a sensor significantly better than the one in the 5DIV.

Just my take:

It's less about choosing an EVF over an OVF to me. It's about what an EVF based camera can add to your capabilities.

For me, I really want to use manual focus large aperture glass handheld with the camera held up to my eye. As interchangeable focusing screens have largely gone the way of the dodo, the only way to do that with a contemporary FF rig is to get a 1DX2. No thank you.

For others, it's mirror slap, truly silent shooting, the potential for very high burst rates, a highly customizable VF experience, the ability to adapt older / non-Canon glass, or the chance to enjoy a smaller form factor (conditions apply).

So I see this (at first) being a hard sell directly at current Canon SLR guys as their next new camera or possibly a second camera to carry alongside their current SLR. It's not about being categorically better -- it's about being able to add to what you can do.

- A

 

[ahsanford]

My understanding is that the mirrorbox is the source of the clipped bokeh, so that problem might go away with mirrorless.

Simple enough to verify, right? Slap an adapted 85L on an A7 and see what the wide open OOF output looks like.

I tried finding such a gallery on Flickr, stabbing at searches in Shutterdial, etc. but could not find any. Please post a link if you come across some, thx.

- A

 

[BillB]

What is the other option? A full-frame mirrorless camera won't have the EF mount - but it COULD have the EF-S mount, for exactly the same reason. Your EF-S 10-22 suddenly becomes a great ultrawide angle zoom for your full frame mirrorless.

Yes, you can barely notice the vignetting.....

Looks like a 16-35 f/2.8L III shot wide open at 16mm.

- A

But how many times do you shoot 16mm at f2.8 anyway?

 

[BillB]

If they do use a recycled 5DIV sensor, I think the camera would have to have a price below the 5DIV if they want to move sales. At the same price level, I don't know how many people would take a EVF over an OVF, especially for a camera with the 5DIV's Liveview capabilities, which you ought to use if you are using a tripod. If Canon wants to introduce a mirrorless at the 5DIV price level, I think they would want to have a sensor significantly better than the one in the 5DIV.

Just my take:

It's less about choosing an EVF over an OVF to me. It's about what an EVF based camera can add to your capabilities.

For me, I really want to use manual focus large aperture glass handheld with the camera held up to my eye. As interchangeable focusing screens have largely gone the way of the dodo, the only way to do that with a contemporary FF rig is to get a 1DX2. No thank you.

For others, it's mirror slap, truly silent shooting, the potential for very high burst rates, a highly customizable VF experience, the ability to adapt older / non-Canon glass, or the chance to enjoy a smaller form factor (conditions apply).

So I see this (at first) being a hard sell directly at current Canon SLR guys as their next new camera or possibly a second camera to carry alongside their current SLR. It's not about being categorically better -- it's about being able to add to what you can do.

- A

I agree. Presumably Canon is not going to stop producing DSLR cameras anytime soon, so it will come down to consumer preference. I am not sure how the chips will fall, given both cameras at the same price.

 

[transpo1]

Anxiously waiting if it'll be like 1D-expensive or only like 5D-expensive...

My guess is 5D expensive with a (largely) 6D feature-set -- though perhaps with an on-chip sensor.

There's no denying that they'll upcharge mirrorless w.r.t. its SLR peers. Why wouldn't they? There's so much pent up demand for this.

And I think they're going to try to make the body quite small like an A7 and that will create precious little real estate for physical controls.

- A

If they’re going to upcharge, they better include comparable features, such as no crop 4K, comparable dynamic range, and Log. Hopefully, there’s a Digic 8 in there and no market segment protection by cropping/hobbling the 4K a la M50.

 

[slclick]

What is the other option? A full-frame mirrorless camera won't have the EF mount - but it COULD have the EF-S mount, for exactly the same reason. Your EF-S 10-22 suddenly becomes a great ultrawide angle zoom for your full frame mirrorless.

Yes, you can barely notice the vignetting.....

Looks like a 16-35 f/2.8L III shot wide open at 16mm.

- A

But how many times do you shoot 16mm at f2.8 anyway?

It's like asking for a fast macro lens

 

[Talys]

So I see this (at first) being a hard sell directly at current Canon SLR guys as their next new camera or possibly a second camera to carry alongside their current SLR. It's not about being categorically better -- it's about being able to add to what you can do.

At the high end, I couldn't agree more. You just can't replace a SLR with a mirrorless for everything, yet. But that doesn't stop them from selling mirrorless cameras to SLR owners.

 

[mppix]

Well, obviously at 10mm you have a few problems but from about 14mm or 15mm it's fine

Yes, I was quite surprised at how well it worked at 16mm....

Not sure if we will see crop lenses soon on full frame.
Here some results with a Tamron SP 17-50 F2.8 Di II @ 17mm, 25mm, 35mm, and 50mm

 

[vangelismm]

Hope is not that flat rectangle of the photo.

 

[Woody]

While an announcement date is not yet set for the camera, and little is known about it specifications wise, I’m very confident we’re going to see something announced before the end of Q1 in 2019.

That is still much later than Thom Hogan's prediction.

 

[Don Haines]

While an announcement date is not yet set for the camera, and little is known about it specifications wise, I’m very confident we’re going to see something announced before the end of Q1 in 2019.

That is still much later than Thom Hogan's prediction.

I hear that Canon is holding off until the magic codec is finished and the camera will support 8K video at 60fps.

 

[brad-man]

I think it is telling that Canon's FF mirrorless won't be announced until next year. One argument could be made that Canon was caught with their pants down and only recently got serious about it. The other is that they are going to release a "game changing" camera. I still believe there will be two mounts available eventually. Obviously one will be EF and the other will be adaptable to all lenses, including EF. The new mount camera may well incorporate IBIS, thereby allowing for a smaller-still line of new high performance lenses. Market leadership aside, I think/hope that Canon will consider it a matter of pride to release a kick ass camera to silence the snarky no-innovation crowd. It's good to dream...

 

[Don Haines]

I think it is telling that Canon's FF mirrorless won't be announced until next year. One argument could be made that Canon was caught with their pants down and only recently got serious about it. The other is that they are going to release a "game changing" camera. I still believe there will be two mounts available eventually. Obviously one will be EF and the other will be adaptable to all lenses, including EF. The new mount camera may well incorporate IBIS, thereby allowing for a smaller-still line of new high performance lenses. Market leadership aside, I think/hope that Canon will consider it a matter of pride to release a kick ass camera to silence the snarky no-innovation crowd. It's good to dream...

I don’t think they were caught flat footed, they are a conservative company and are not going to jump in until they are ready. The M series of cameras are a good window on where they are. This is the proving ground for mirrorless technologies.

Look at the AF of the M’s... dual pixel is made for mirrorless!
A decent EVF on the M50....
The articulated touchscreen and interface of the 6D2....

All the pieces are there, we are just waiting on integration and testing. With a departure from normal like this, one should expect a long beta test to make sure that all the bugs are out. They are slow, but when they release something, it usually works.

 

[slclick]

I think it is telling that Canon's FF mirrorless won't be announced until next year. One argument could be made that Canon was caught with their pants down and only recently got serious about it. The other is that they are going to release a "game changing" camera. I still believe there will be two mounts available eventually. Obviously one will be EF and the other will be adaptable to all lenses, including EF. The new mount camera may well incorporate IBIS, thereby allowing for a smaller-still line of new high performance lenses. Market leadership aside, I think/hope that Canon will consider it a matter of pride to release a kick ass camera to silence the snarky no-innovation crowd. It's good to dream...

I don’t think they were caught flat footed, they are a conservative company and are not going to jump in until they are ready. The M series of cameras are a good window on where they are. This is the proving ground for mirrorless technologies.

Look at the AF of the M’s... dual pixel is made for mirrorless!
A decent EVF on the M50....
The articulated touchscreen and interface of the 6D2....

All the pieces are there, we are just waiting on integration and testing. With a departure from normal like this, one should expect a long beta test to make sure that all the bugs are out. They are slow, but when they release something, it usually works.

It usually works, not too mention it's supported and has great ergo and menus.

 

[Talys]

Again, imho: I realize it is a minority view around here.

ONLY around here. somehow the forum seems to be dominated by large-handed, all-day large-white-lens shooting folks ... reality is different.


reality looks different. Almost everybody wants smaller and lighter gear that handles 90% of all capturing situations perfectly well ... big gear only to be carried along and mounted (via adapter) when really needed.

That's not it at all.

I like small cameras too. I've spent an inordinate amount of money on small travel cameras, right up to thousand-dollar plus point and shoots "back in the day" before smartphones were good for that task. But I look at the lens and the camera as a package, and I don't see the advantage of spending $2,000-$3,000 on a full frame body, only to attach the vast majority of small lenses.

So for my small camera needs, I'd rather have an APSC with a small lens. On full frame, virtually all the lenses I use are f/4, f/2.8, or wider (with the exception of 100-400), and that just doesn't jive with small body.

 

[unfocused]

...Almost everybody wants smaller and lighter gear that handles 90% of all capturing situations perfectly well...

...I look at the lens and the camera as a package, and I don't see the advantage of spending $2,000-$3,000 on a full frame body, only to attach the vast majority of small lenses.

So for my small camera needs, I'd rather have an APSC with a small lens...

Exactly. If you truly want "smaller and lighter gear that handles 90% of all capturing situations perfectly well" there are already plenty of cameras on the market that meet that criteria, since any APS-C camera will cover that and, to be honest, so will any smart phone released in the last four to five years.

 

[BillB]

So I see this (at first) being a hard sell directly at current Canon SLR guys as their next new camera or possibly a second camera to carry alongside their current SLR. It's not about being categorically better -- it's about being able to add to what you can do.

At the high end, I couldn't agree more. You just can't replace a SLR with a mirrorless for everything, yet. But that doesn't stop them from selling mirrorless cameras to SLR owners.

Marketing FF mirrorless as an additional camera rather than a replacement camera will be a neat trick if they can convince enough DSLR owners to go that route, especially for the more expensive mirrorless. May be an argument for starting with midrange rather than high end. Sort of an upgrade from using M and other aps-c cameras as the additional camera.

 

[Ozarker]

Although 90% of the current lenses in production could be shortened.

Which ones can be shortened? Why would Canon be producing them longer when they could be shortened? Well, it would be easier if you could tell us which lenses, the 10%, can't be shortened.

 

[Ozarker]

Hoping a Senior Canon rep is reading this, if it is not a EF mount, I will be leaving Canon for for Sony!!

The whole team read your post. They are now shaking in their boots.