Canon Looking Into a New Mount System

[SPKoko]

Here is my initial, (fabricated) roadmap of what I think Canon will do. Keep in mind this is pure speculation but it's fun to wonder

I like your speculation and it kind of makes sense. But, why not just release mirroless Rebels exactly like the ones that we have today and with EF-S mount but just change the OVF with an EVF and add DPAF? Advantages:

* The costs would be lower (no mirror, no AF module, no need to calibrate the mirror/AF system, less need of after-sales support)
* The ergonomy/handling of the camera would be better than the typical mirrorless camera
* Fully native (not via adapters, that always create additional problems) compatibility with current EF-S and EF glass!

And for those who want small & pocketable, seriously develop the EOS-M system and provide that alternative!

 

[tculotta]

Whatever the plan and roadmap encompass, I find it hard to believe that part of the plan would be to "obsolete" (used as a verb) the one hook that keeps many of us firmly entrenched in the Canon camp: our investments in glass. Whatever is done, there must be a grandfathering of the existing lenses to keep people in the Canon stable and make their investment in glass usable on a go forward basis, until such time as the user chooses to buy new glass rather than being forced to make a choice based upon interoperability.

 

[hachu21]

Here is my initial, (fabricated) roadmap of what I think Canon will do. Keep in mind this is pure speculation but it's fun to wonder

Nice roadmap! But where do you fit the future 7D mkIII (crop sensor pro-body)?

 

[DRR]

Here is my initial, (fabricated) roadmap of what I think Canon will do. Keep in mind this is pure speculation but it's fun to wonder

Nice roadmap! But where do you fit the future 7D mkIII (crop sensor pro-body)?

I haven't thought that far into it

My initial thought here would be it would be a hybrid - I would say it would be a crop sensor but with the new mount (EF-X).

My reasoning being, that for this market you would probably be needing and using many telephoto lenses and it doesn't make sense to develop telephoto EF-M primes. (Just as it doesn't make sense right now to develop telephoto primes for EF-S, there just isn't a large enough market to make sense). I assume this would be technically feasible, and would be similar to how EF lenses work now on crop sensor cameras - the image circle would simply be too large for the sensor and the image would crop. Rather than "matching" like EF-M would with APS-C, or EF-X with FF mirrorless.

Fun discussion.

 

[AvTvM]

Of course Canon will need to have 4 types of mounts/lenses for a transitional period to move from DSLRs to mirrorless interchangeable-lens cameras. Just like Sony. Nikon is currently at 3 mounts (FX, DX, CX) and will need 1 or 2 more) ... and anybody else out there.

APS-C:
EF-S will be succeeded by EF-M as Rebel DSLRs are phased out. Anything a Rebel can do today is easily possible in an mirrorless EOS-M body. Bodies will come in 2 flavors: without EVF for the most compact size like today's EOS-M and M2. And a line of higher end, slightly larger bodies with EVF.

There will be NO fat mirrorless cams ... "Rebels" without mirror, with EVF and native EF-S mount, since that concept ("SLT") combines the worst of both worlds and therefore has UTTERLY FAILED for Sony [A-mount cameras]. The transition is pretty painless, since all EF and EF-S lenses ever produced can be used on EF-M mount cameras using a simple extension tube adapter which retains all properties of the respective lens (AF, IS, 2-way communication with camera body), although lenses with STM AF-drive will work best with the MILCs AF-system. The adaptetr already exists: EF/EF-M adapter sold for too much money by Canon and in cheaper versions by thirdparty copycats.

FF:
exactly the same transition will happen, but it will be a bit more drawn out. DSLRs will be replaced by at least as powerful FF MILCs with new "EF-X" mount to take advantage of the shorter flange distance. All EF-lenses ever manufactured can be used by means of a simple extension tube EF/EF-X adapter (without optical elements). First MILCs will be catering to high-res/studio type applications until AF-systems will surpass the best DSLRs phase-AF capabilities. AF all over the frame, incredibly hig AF-speed, incredibly good tracking capabilities plus built-in 100% precision. The last DSLRs to be phased out will be 1D-X and 7D II successors, which are more frequently used in fast-action, reach-limited scenarios. But thanks to the easy adapters, the transition is pretty much painless - other than the 1987 move from FD to EF.

Potential for Canon is massive. Just like the ski industry ... first everyone bought regular skies, once the market slumped due to saturation and bored-to-hell consumers, the industry finally innovated and introduced carving skies .. everybody bought new ones ... next came "rocker" skies ... everybody bought new ones again ... or is renting them

MILCs promise not only new sales but much more PROFITABLE sales
On top of this comes the fact, that future mechanics-free, solid state, purely electronical/digital mirrorless cameras are a heck of a lot CHEAPER to produce compared to electro-mechanical DSLRs with mirrors, submirrors, separately mounted phase-AF sensro, viewfinder prism ... and other parts, that need to be preciely finetuned and potioned relative to each other, down to 1/100 of millimeters. MILCS can easily and entirely be manufactured and quality-controlled by 100% robo-factories. Hardly any labor costs involved. AT the same time, makers can sell MILCs as "new" and "with unique advantages" (smaller, lighter, faster, more capable, better AF, better IQ thanks to vibration-free electronic shutter units and no moving parts, totally silent, .... etc. ) at prices AT LEAST AS HIGH as more-expensive to build, similarly capable DSLRs.

The EOS-M flopped inititially, solely because it was TOO WEAK a product at TOO high a price. It delivered LESS photographic use (no viewfinder at all, less control/points, less AF-performance, less battery charge, etc.) than similarly priced [USD 800] DSLRs.

Size?
Everywhere on earth - including North America - the overwhelming majority of peolpe wants a tool with a given functionality to be as small as possible - as long as it is large enough to still handle reasonably well ... factoring in new user interfaces. Otherwise we all - including US citizens - would still be using cell phones like these:

instead of iPhones or other contemporary smartphones.

In short:
[list type=decimal]
[*]yes, mirrorless is the future, DSLRs will be dead
[*]yes, for a transition period Canon will have to maintain 4 different lens mounts ... 2 for APS-C and 2 for FF cameras
[*]yes, Canon will soon enough manufacture lenses in EF-M mount for APS-C and EF-X (or whatever they choose to call it] mount for FF-sensored cams and shut down production of EF- and EF-S lenses

[/list] ;D

 

[SPKoko]

Whatever the plan and roadmap encompass, I find it hard to believe that part of the plan would be to "obsolete" (used as a verb) the one hook that keeps many of us firmly entrenched in the Canon camp: our investments in glass. Whatever is done, there must be a grandfathering of the existing lenses to keep people in the Canon stable and make their investment in glass usable on a go forward basis, until such time as the user chooses to buy new glass rather than being forced to make a choice based upon interoperability.

+1000

With Nikon and Sony having better sensors, Sony and m4/3 having better size and Nikon having similar glass choices, a forced mount change ala FD->EOS would strongly alienate Canon's user base and it would be a suicide for Canon. That is why a mirrorless Rebel makes so much sense together with a slow but continuous development of the EOS M system (the backup/long term plan).

 

[roxics]

This is a money move for Canon. The EF mount is no longer under patent and as a result third parties like Black Magic / RED are free to use it on new cameras. Creating a new mount means that once again Canon can lock their users down to only their cameras if they want to use new Canon lenses.

 

[Steve]

Size?
Everywhere on earth - including North America - the overwhelming majority of peolpe wants a tool with a given functionality to be as small as possible - as long as it is large enough to still handle reasonably well ... factoring in new user interfaces. Otherwise we all - including US citizens - would still be using cell phones like these:

instead of iPhones or other contemporary smartphones.

Counterpoint:

 

[SPKoko]

This is a money move for Canon. The EF mount is no longer under patent and as a result third parties like Black Magic / RED are free to use it on new cameras. Creating a new mount means that once again Canon can lock their users down to only their cameras if they want to use new Canon lenses.

I only see benefits to Canon and Canon users if other vendors adopt the EF mount. Olympus and Panasonic both benefit for contributing to a common ecosystem.

Sigma with their Art lenses is more dangerous to Canon than camera vendors adopting the EF mount...

 

[CarlMillerPhoto]

This is good news if it is indeed in reference to a FF mirrorless mount. Canon really can't shrink camera and lens size down if they're forced to maintain the EF flange distance. They'd be smart to follow Sony's lead in regard to the A and E mount, as the lack of a good mirrorless system is holding Canon back IMO.

And it won't be hard at all for Canon to offer an EF adapter for this new mount.

 

[Khalai]

This is a money move for Canon. The EF mount is no longer under patent and as a result third parties like Black Magic / RED are free to use it on new cameras. Creating a new mount means that once again Canon can lock their users down to only their cameras if they want to use new Canon lenses.

That would upset so many Canon customers leading to a financial suicide for Canon, rendering them unpredictable and unreliable company. EF mount may evolve, keeping legacy lenses still functional, but I hardly doubt, they will abandon it for good.

 

[AvTvM]

Counterpoint to counterpoint:

+

vs.

 

[StudentOfLight]

Here is my initial, (fabricated) roadmap of what I think Canon will do. Keep in mind this is pure speculation but it's fun to wonder

First, they are going to move all Rebels and lower end SLRs to mirrorless technology. They won't be the small mirrorless cameras like we see today, but rather, mirrorless technology in a larger, comfortable, camera, with an APS-C sensor. Think of something the size of a Rebel of today, but thinner, since we don't need the mirror box anymore. "Full size" mirrorless. These cameras will use the .... EF-M mount. That's right, Canon's bastard system will eventually become its standard. Of course we know EF-M can retain full EF and EF-S compatibility with an adapter so that won't be an issue at all. It will also give Canon an easy way to move beyond EF and EF-S while maintaining its stable of EF lenses, which is the system's primary selling point.

They will cease making EF-S lenses in favor of the EF-M. By standardizing on EF-M for APS-C, they can create two very distinct lines of cameras - an SLR-style (but thinner) line for mass consumption (this would effectively replace the Rebel line, and would sell great in the US/Europe) and then a much smaller, MILC line (that will sell great in Asia, and replaces the EOS-M). This gives Canon two camera lines for two very distinct world markets, but they have the benefit of sharing the same mount,

For semi-pro and some pro applications, that is where we will see the new mount, for FF mirrorless, with a reduced flange distance from EF/EF-S. Let's call it, EF-X. EF-X will be a FF mirrorless mount, enabling the 5D Mark V and the 6D Mark III to use the new EF-X lenses and also, with an adapter (like EF-M,) will allow full backward compatibility with existing EF/EF-S lenses. So you might buy a FF Mirrorless 6D Mark III with a kit 20-135mm f/4 IS lens in an EF-X mount, but with an adapter, you would also be able to retain full compatibility with your existing L glass with no optical penalty.

Canon will, for a long time, still retain a line of pro cameras with a mirror box with a full EF mount, but as progress marches on, this will be sunsetted as the EF-M and EF-X mounts gain momentum. This is similar to how they transitioned from film bodies to digital bodies. You can still buy a EOS 1v brand new if you like, I expect they will maintain cameras with native EF mounts for a while.

So in the future I can see them transitioning to

Consumer line - New "Rebels" APS-C with EF-M mount in larger form factor, full EF/EF-S compatability with adapter

Consumer mirrorless - New "EOS-M" APS-C with EF-M mount in small form factor, full EF/EF-S compatability with adapter

Pro line - New FF Mirrorless with EF-X mount in larger form factor, full EF/EF-S compatibility with adapter

Legacy line - DSLR with mirrorbox with EF mount

Just my opinion. Don't take it too seriously!

Half the fun I have on CR is seeing what other people dream up. Of course there's great technical Q&A, advice, info and heated debates about what's really going on... but me, I'm a dreamer :-D

Just to throw a couple more crazy figures out there...

MFD MILC: The "EF-X" mount where "X" = ????

56mm image circle, Physical Backwards compatible to EF and EF-S
Sizing is so that on the EF-X system, EF = 1.3xCrop , EF-S = 2xCrop
This still allows up to 5mm of shift with the TS-E 17mm and 24mm II
New TS-E 135mm (replacing 90) and 60mm (replacing 45) also to have at least 5mm of shift.
New AF primes to cover 56mm. (e.g. 45mm, 70mm, 180mm)
New AF zooms to cover 56mm. (e.g. 18-35, 35-120mm)
Possibly use aspect ratio other than 3:2 ... maybe a 16:10, 19:10 or 21:10 for Cine 4/6/8K.

 

[roxics]

I only see benefits to Canon and Canon users if other vendors adopt the EF mount. Olympus and Panasonic both benefit for contributing to a common ecosystem.

Sigma with their Art lenses is more dangerous to Canon than camera vendors adopting the EF mount...

But neither Olympus nor Panasonic were market leaders at the time and still aren't. They had to try something radical and new. Canon is your typical slow moving behemoth in this market. Their goal is slow and steady and to protect their dominance as much as possible.

I don't diagree that third party lenses are probably a bigger pain for them, but if they can kill two birds with one stone, they will. While also offering a full electronic adapter for backward compability with EF and EF-S lenses potentially.

 

[Ripley]

+

vs.

 

[rrcphoto]

<p>According to an interview with Mr Makoto Sakaeta Masaya, the managing director of Canon Image Communication Business Division. Canon is exploring the possibility of a new lens mount. I suspect its application would be for a full frame mirrorless system of some kind.</p>
<p><strong><a href="https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ja&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/interview/20140918_667456.html" target="_blank">Read the Interview</a> (Google Translated)</strong></p>
<p>Source: [<a href="http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/mirrorless.html" target="_blank">NL</a>] via [<a href="https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ja&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/interview/20140918_667456.html" target="_blank">DCW</a>]</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>

in no place in this interview was full frame mentioned - just the reverse - the intent of the interview was that things should be made smaller - such as 1" sensor / m43's as the quality of those sensors improve.

not to mention the current EF-M throat dimension once you remove the baffling can already support a full frame sensor.

full frame doesn't do anything for the miniturization of the "system" which is what Masaya was talking about.

everyone's running amok on this thread - and there's no indication whatsoever that canon's making a bigger than APS-C MILC.

(the only thing that would make sense for bigger than APS-C would be medium format)

 

[that1guyy]

There will probably be an adapter of some sort to connect EF lenses to the new mount. Similar to Sony's A to E adapter right?

 

[Haydn1971]

Whilst I agree with some opinion that EF-M will extend to include an entry level camera, I'm not convince that it will completely supersede the medium to high end current EF-S/EF APS-C cameras - I do see "mirrorless" coming to body's that eventually replace the x0D/7D ranges.

New mount ? Three possibilities, in order of probability

1, Most likely a new smaller mount for a 1" sensor in the style of Pentax/Nikon
2, Full frame mirrorless not for mainstream but for cinema ranges, offering logic control for powered zoom and focus
3, Least likely a larger than full frame Mirrorless for high end 8k+ cinema and a high end medium format range

 

[Stephen Melvin]

I look at the size and weight of the Sony FE 70-200 f/4 OSS lens designed for their mirrorless A7 family, and I shudder. What's the point of going mirrorless if the telephoto lenses don't shrink in size and weight?

It's for the shorter lenses. Look at Leica lenses sometime. Their normals and wides are positively tiny, compared to Canon's. Look at Canon's 24mm f/1.4, which is a giant compared to the 50mm f/1.4. Doesn't that seem backward? That's because it. But it's necessary, due to the mirror.

 

[Dylan777]

35mm sensor + 35, 50, and 85mm : : :