Canon MP-E 65 Add on's & Tips

[lol]

5x is barely usable hand held if you use flash. Finding the subject and placing the non existent DoF can be tricky.

 

[Isurus]

I use Really Right Stuff's macro rail and flash brackets, which work great. Picture of the setup (for the most part - don't use the tripod shown or the lens. this is just an example photo off their site.) can be found here:

http://reallyrightstuff.com/mmrrs/Images/library/anemone-gear-labeled.jpg

I like using the bracket as it takes the flash heads off the lens and gives more freedom. That being said, it takes a bit to get used to this rig given the size and complexity.

Edit: I should have also mentioned that RRS gear is expensive. The rig shown is well over $1K excluding the Canon gear.

 

[revup67]

To Flake: I agree with the Live View, it's even better than the mirror lock up as two motion vibrations are removed from the Mirror and (Mechanical Focal Plane) shutter according to an article (with illustration) that I had read.
go here for more insight: http://krebsmicro.com/Canon_EFSC/index.html
The writer also stated to use Live View (active) with Silent Mode turned On which induces the electronic first shutter curtain. This gets the least amount of vibration possible of course depending on camera model in that those features exist.

Also, thanks for the tip on those Sto-Fens diffusers as I was ready to acquire those through 47st photo but from what you say not worth while. I have not decided on the Dual Macro flash holder yet as the lens and flash have not arrived but I am leaning on it vs. others I've seen which are more $$ and less diversification - the one you recommended appears to be the best one out there.

Rev

 

[neuroanatomist]

You really believe that you can use a MP-E 65 at full magnification hand held???

Xmas tree and ornament - both of these were shot handheld at 5x, using the MP-E 65mm and MT-24EX on a 5DII.

 

[revup67]

That's pretty cool you were able to hand hold the MP-E 65 @ 5x. Someone else in this thread said it could not be done. What F-stop did you use and I am assuming the MT 24EX flash was connected -thanks again

 

[neuroanatomist]

That's pretty cool you were able to hand hold the MP-E 65 @ 5x. Someone else in this thread said it could not be done. What F-stop did you use and I am assuming the MT 24EX flash was connected -thanks again

It's do-able. Both were shot at 1/60 s and f/14 with the MT-24EX (mounted on the included ring, not a separate bracket). Basically I just move in close and then rock slowly back until I hit the focal plane I want, then press the shutter. It helps to pick a subject where there's not just one critical plane of focus that makes sense - it would be harder shooting an insect where you needed to hit the eye, for example - but I've seen plenty of handheld examples of that from others (haven't had the flash long enough to try it, myself...yet).

 

[revup67]

Well its comforting to know all of this - quite helpful especially the rocking idea - thanks. I received the lens and 24ex flash today. Still waiting for the 58C. Did a few test shots on a tripod which I will post to the MP-E 65 lens group. All in all, the lens is everything I thought it would be - just fascinating. I am still contemplating the dual macro flash gizmo Flake wrote about but it appears with certainty that a macro rail is essential especially if focus stacking or no flash is being used to have the ultimate control. Did you say you had acquired a rail? someone mentioned the really right stuff rail but geez after blowing $1600 who wants to spend another 6 bills on the rail when those $50 china rails apparently work well according to to the reviews I've read..open to any thoughts?

 

[lol]

I use the cheap China rails and it has worked ok for me. More thoughts on it here. I don't doubt the more expensive ones are better, but I'm not complaining for the price I paid for mine. The only thing I'm thinking of adding to it is a gear head for the tripod to give some additional fine degrees of adjustment.

 

[Isurus]

What I like about the RRS rails is the precision. Even at 5x, there is enough precision in the rail to the focus exactly where you want it. My experience with some of the cheaper rails is that they work ok at 1x or sometimes even 2x, but once you get to the higher magnifications sometimes they aren't precise enough to actually let you get focus exactly where you want it. (for example, lets say focus is behind the eye of an insect. On the cheaper rails, sometimes the smallest allowable movement in an attempt to get the eye in focus will now put focus in front of the eye).

No doubt the RRS rails are quite expensive, but they are built very, very well. Also, if you don't want to drop 6 bills, you can get one rail which would allow for forward and aft movement for 3 to 4 bills. That being said, given the price, it still may be worth it to try a cheaper one first to see if it meets your needs. You can always flip it latter if you decide to go RRS.

 

[neuroanatomist]

it appears with certainty that a macro rail is essential especially if focus stacking or no flash is being used

Definitely for focus stacking. The MP-E 65mm doesn't have separate focus and 'zoom' rings - there's one ring and rotating it changes both focal plane and magnification at the same time, so if you 'adjust focus' you're also changing magnification (making focus stacking useless) - so, you need the rail for that use.

But, you can use the MP-E 65mm without a macro rail if not using a flash, depending on the subject and your patience... This was shot tripod-mounted, with the lighting provided by a handheld Maglite LED flashlight.

EOS 5D Mark II, MP-E 65mm f/2.8 1-5x Macro @ 4x, 0.8 s, f/10, ISO 200

Did you say you had acquired a rail? someone mentioned the really right stuff rail but geez after blowing $1600 who wants to spend another 6 bills on the rail when those $50 china rails apparently work well according to to the reviews I've read..open to any thoughts?

I don't have a rail, but will probably order one today. The one I've been planning to get is the Velbon Super Mag Slider - well-reviewed and less expensive than the Novoflex/Kirk/RRS offerings. I shoot macro sometimes, but it's not my primary subject, and like Manfrotto tripods, the Velbon rail seems to be a good compromise between quality and value. The problem has been that B&H has been out of stock due to lack of supply from the manufacturer, every time I've looked over the past few months. But your question inspired me to check again, and they have them now. Thanks for the nudge!

 

[contrastny]

I'm also planning on getting the MP-E 65 and the MT-24 EX.

For those of you that have used the Macroshot Dual Mount Bracket. Can you add more ball sockets to make each arm longer? I would like to make each one about 20"+ so I can use it on my 180mm f/3.5L macro lens, so the light source is coming from the sides.

 

[revup67]

Good point - I have pushed the lens into branches, flower parts, etc., and definitely recommend a UV filter. I have a B+W MRC UV on there (as on all my lenses). However, the filter prevents you from mounting the MT-24EX to the groove on the front of the lens. My solution is to screw a Macrolite Adapter 58C onto the front threads of the filter.

Interesting on the filter. I was able to put the MT 24EX on the MP-E 65 and then screw the UV on the macro lite. I wound up getting the 58C but don't know if there is a need a this point. Anyone have any ideas how else I can use the 58C when the UV screws on to the lens or the flash after its on the lens. Don't get its purpose (the 58C)

 

[neuroanatomist]

Interesting on the filter. I was able to put the MT 24EX on the MP-E 65 and then screw the UV on the macro lite. I wound up getting the 58C but don't know if there is a need a this point. Anyone have any ideas how else I can use the 58C when the UV screws on to the lens or the flash after its on the lens. Don't get its purpose (the 58C)

No, you don't need the 58C if you put the MT-24EX on the lens, then screw the filter onto the threads of the MT-24EX mount ring - Canon 14-24 suggested that early in the thread. The purpose of the 58C is so you can put the MT-24EX on the lens after the filter (i.e. the filter is screwed into the lens threads, which blocks the MT-24EX mount ring from reaching it's groove, and adding the 58C to the front threads of the filter provides that groove).

There are two reasons I prefer using the 58C rather than screwing the filter onto the MT-24EX mount ring threads - one optical and one practical. The optical reason is that it's best to have a filter as close to the front element as possible, since that reduces flare and the associated loss of contrast. I'm not sure how much of a real-world issue that would be especially with a good multicoated filter, but in theory if you're shooting a reflective subject with the flash it might make a difference.

The practical reason is that I use the MT-24EX with two different lenses - the MP-E 65mm and the 100mm L IS Macro lenses (the latter has 67mm threads, so the Macrolite 67C is required for the MT-24EX). Having Macrolite adapters on both lenses make it easier - both lenses are stored with filter then adapter then cap (I bought a 58mm cap for the 100L), and I can move the MT-24EX back and forth easily. The 100L macro often gets used without flash, and if I had a UV filter on the MT-24EX mount ring, I'd have to remove it for use on the 100L to avoid having two UV filters with a gap between (which would be more likely to impact optical performance), then replace it to use the flash on the MP-E 65. This way, I don't have to screw on/off filters or adapters to use the flash with either lens.

 

[revup67]

Neuroanatomist: I had a hunch you were going to say all of that. And follow each of your points / reasons for the 58C and 67C though one question remains to be answered: with the 67C stepping down to the 58mm Macro 24 EX Flash..any vignetting or other issues that might occur while stepping down? As I've got the 100mm IS USM L 2.8 and don't see much need for a flash (at least at this point) unless you feel its imperative.

Rev

 

[neuroanatomist]

Neuroanatomist: I had a hunch you were going to say all of that. And follow each of your points / reasons for the 58C and 67C though one question remains to be answered: with the 67C stepping down to the 58mm Macro 24 EX Flash..any vignetting or other issues that might occur while stepping down? As I've got the 100mm IS USM L 2.8 and don't see much need for a flash (at least at this point) unless you feel its imperative.

No vignetting on the 100 L Macro. If you look at the front of that lens, you'll see that (much like the MP-E 65mm) the front element is much smaller than the filter threads - all that 'dead space' leaves plenty of buffer against vignetting.

Depending on the subject, I find flash to be helpful with the 100 L macro as well, though not as 'necessary' as with the MP-E 65mm. Yes, the 100mm L has IS - but, keep in mind that IS is less effective at macro distances - that 4-stop IS only functions as a 2-stop IS at 1:1. Also, there's often a need to stop down for more DoF and at 1:1 the apparent aperture loses 2 stops. So, if you're taking a 1:1 shot at f/11, you're getting the amount of light you'd get at f/22 at 'normal' subject distances, and you've only got two stops of IS to help with handholding, and I prefer to keep the ISO as low as possible. The other factor is that subjects can move, and IS works by allowing slower shutter speeds - taking a shot of flowers on your dining table is fine with a long exposure, but shooting a flower moving in the wind, or a moving insect, mean longer shutter speeds result in subject motion blur.

Here's a shot from the 100mm L with flash. It was outdoors on a breezy overcast day, and I was under a canopy of trees - not enough light for a fast enough shutter, short of going to ISO 6400 (not somewhere I ever go!).

EOS 7D, EF 100mm f/2.8L Macro IS USM, 1/60 s, f/8, ISO 400

 

[revup67]

You are right about all you say. I had forgotten about the 2 stop vs. 4 stop with macro despite its a hybrid IS and sure, 2.8 is certainly not suffice for all situations especially in greater need for DoF. Have you tried using Hi Speed Flash sync with the 24EX? or when you shoot are you in manual mode mostly ?

Ok, now I get the reason for no vignetting - thanks for that. I did notice the narrower barrel at the base of the lens so the 58 to 67 as you say has no bearing. Good to know. Flake said he was tired of getting a variety of macro rings for each of his lenses that might warrant the 24EX. That's one of the main reasons he got the Dual Macro Flash Holder. of course it provides a greater amount of flexibility however he stated its a bit cumbersome to carry.

I am thinking of putting the camera (7D) in AI Servo or AI Focus full time this should help mitigate that moving subject in the wind syndrome

All these options are good but there's so many options one can get easily overwhelmed when the moment calls for the photo.

Rev

 

[neuroanatomist]

Have you tried using Hi Speed Flash sync with the 24EX? or when you shoot are you in manual mode mostly ?

I haven't yet had a need to go beyond the max sync speed (1/200 for the 5DII where I usually use the macro lenses).

I am thinking of putting the camera (7D) in AI Servo or AI Focus full time this should help mitigate that moving subject in the wind syndrome

If you're shooting macro on the 7D and not manually focusing, you should absolutely use AI Servo mode (not AI Focus) especially for handheld shots. On the 7D, Canon implemented a special Macro Servo AF mode - when you are using a Canon USM macro lens and focusing at 1:3 (one-third life size) or greater, and in AI Servo AF, that mode is automatically activated. It increases the sampling rate for the servo AF to better correct for rapid but small changes in focus (as opposed to the normal function of servo mode where a subject is being tracked through the scene). In some ways, the 100 L macro on the 7D is the best possible handheld macro setup for ambient light shots - the hybrid IS reduces the effect of angular and lateral motion, and the 7D's Macro Servo AF mode helps control motion in the 'Z' direction (toward/away from the subject). The only trade-off is that your 1:1 image captures less of the subject than with a FF camera.

 

[revup67]

Great piece of information. I never saw that blip on AI Servo for Macro. There's no listing in the 7D LCD with respect to a name called Macro Ai Servo (I have 100mm on now with Ai Servo in place) but I would assume if you are in AF with AI servo on, it just kicks in - there's no menu listing per say. for some reason I can get in closer to the subject in Manual then with AF spot metering. The lens can't focus closer then say about 4 or 5 or inches in AF (I forget what the min. focus distance is)

Correct on the trade off 1.6 with the APS-C vs. FF

PS - if you recall where you read that info please send it along - thanks for the help. You def. know your stuff

 

[neuroanatomist]

Great piece of information. I never saw that blip on AI Servo for Macro. There's no listing in the 7D LCD with respect to a name called Macro Ai Servo (I have 100mm on now with Ai Servo in place) but I would assume if you are in AF with AI servo on, it just kicks in - there's no menu listing per say. for some reason I can get in closer to the subject in Manual then with AF spot metering. The lens can't focus closer then say about 4 or 5 or inches in AF (I forget what the min. focus distance is)

Correct on the trade off 1.6 with the APS-C vs. FF

PS - if you recall where you read that info please send it along - thanks for the help. You def. know your stuff

For most lenses, it's possible to manually focus a little closer than AF is possible, and a little less than the specified MFD.

No, Macro Servo AF isn't mentioned in the manual, or anywhere else on the Canon site as far as I can see. It just kicks in automatically with the right lens at the right distance. A trainer from Canon mentions it in a B&H video - click this link, then launch the Part 2 of 3 video and start at 11:45 into the video.

 

[revup67]

Wound up watching that whole video thanks for sharing - there were some good reminders in there especially on AF modes in which I tend to lean on center focus more so and perhaps should not.