Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer

[HarryFilm]

MikeHit's Quote: "...The A9 is aimed at the pros and Sony have too many reputational disadvantages to get a wholesale shift in the pro market. ..."

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In Still Photos, ABSOLUTELY YES that Sony is atrocious at customer service!
With our Canon pro services we can get loaners on lenses, cameras and even
whole systems but of course we've got a ton of Canon gear!

On the Pro Video Side where we are paying $25,000 to $120,000 for Sony Betacam News Cameras and Sony F55/F65 4K/8K's, THEN their customer service experience is UTTERLY SUPERB and I can pretty much get anything I want from Sony Professional Broadcast so while Sony has a LOT of catching up to do when it comes to pro-level stills cameras, their broadcast video systems division is WELL POISED to handle the onslaught of customer service needs. They just need to transfer their video know-how to the still photos division which I think they are STARTING to get a handle on. I would say give it another 2 to 4 years and they will be getting close to Canon CPS levels of help!

I love the look of the A9 so far, so we MIGHT take a closer look at it in a test environment and if it's small size coupled with a good 50 or 95mm Cine Prime lens gives us good video, then we'll add it to our arsenal of stills and video gear. It's a GREAT START but we will do further reviews in June if we can get our hands on one.

---

Again, this is a GREAT SONY camera but will it tackle the wants and needs of pros is yet to be seen....

 

[Loswr]

Well, well, personal attacks are weak and stupid.

Ok, let's review my 'personal attacks':

I suggest you go look for some reality. Trust me, it's out there...even if you can't perceive it.

So, your business degree is from Bob's Tackle Shop and School for Business and Stuff? You should have checked their accreditation status before matriculating...

But maybe your goal is to look foolish, and in that case, congrats to you.

Now, let's review yours:

You're a smug, horrible person...

It's sad that you can't perceive the difference between being called out of touch with reality, looking foolish, and having credentials questioned...and being called a horrible person. But on the positive side, you've effectively supported your statement that personal attacks are weak and stupid. Well done.

Your entire defense is based on, well it happened to other companies but it will never happen to my favorite company because they're awesome. That's what you think, end of story.

Your entire offense is based on, well it happened to other companies so it will happen to this company because they're not doing what I think they should be doing. That's what you think, end of story.

When confronted by mulitple people with the significant difference between your chosen examples and the current situation – the existence of, or in this case absence of, a paradigm shift – you just blithely ignore it. You're also conveniently ignoring the plentiful examples of leading companies that weathered paradigm shifts (and less dramatic market changes) just fine.

Moreover, my position is supported by recent, directly relevant historical evidence: when mirrorless cameras came along, there were many predictions that they would soon displace (kill, to use your parlance) dSLRs. Essentially every other major camera maker entered the MILC market, eventually even Nikon (albeit with a small sensor offering), while Canon did not. There were a plethora of posts like yours...'mirrorless is the future, Canon is too late to the mirrorless party, they're being left behind and unless they enter the MILC market in the next year or so, they are doomed.'

But what really happened? Mirrorless has not killed dSLRs, not even close. Canon did eventually enter the mirrorless market...at launch, their first MILC became the #2 best-selling MILC in the largest single geographic market, and now Canon has become #2 in overall global MILC unit sales.

But here you are, claiming that Canon is too late to the FF mirrorless party, they're being left behind and unless they enter the FF MILC market in the next year or so, they are doomed. Almost the same story, except yours is far less credible than the one already proven wrong, given that you're talking about FF, which is a much (much!) smaller market than crop-sensor MILCs.

Come at me for more personal attacks, fool.

So, in my corner we have logical conjecture supported by documented evidence (and satirical slights), and in your corner we have unsupported opinion (and uncouth insults). I trust you know what they say about having a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent (but that may be expecting too much of you)...

 

[Ozarker]

I honestly don't understand this fetish with mirrorless cameras... especially one that screeches about ho Canon must jump on board immediately or die.

I'm extremely happy with my Canon gear, think it the bee's knees, and couldn't give a rat's behind about Sony or it's lineup.

In fact, I am so happy with Canon I just dropped $1,649 on an EF 35mm f/1.4 II USM that delivers tomorrow from Adorama.

Screw the Sony mirrorless fanboys and their insistence that only Sony is doing it right and that Canon is doomed.

Take the adapters you people use so that you can use Canon lenses and stick them where the sun don't shine. Once you do, peep up that big dark pixel.

 

[Ozarker]

If Canon came up with something like those specs the Canon faithful would absolutely be drooling and praising them to high heavens.

If Canon came up with something like Sony's abysmal service and support record, the Canon faithful —particularly the professionals— would have deserted Canon already. But some people like to drool over spec sheets, good for them.

Yes, competition is healthy, and it would be better, not worse, if the company moved a bit faster. Too slow and it won't be the first industry leader to fall behind because they dragged their feet in adapting to change. Pride comes before a fall and all that.

Yes, we know. Canon is doomed. YAPODFC. : : :

Not to mention the fact that he heaps praise on Sony, but will be buying a Canon 6D. Just another guy that doesn't own the gear he swears Canon has to make. Never touched one. Never used one. :

 

[Ozarker]

Yes, competition is healthy, and it would be better, not worse, if the company moved a bit faster. Too slow and it won't be the first industry leader to fall behind because they dragged their feet in adapting to change. Pride comes before a fall and all that.

If Canon move too slowly you may have a point. But is there any evidence they are moving too slowly?

The complete lack of any mirrorless FF as of April 2017 and uncertainty if they will even release one this year. Not yet "too" slowly but they sure are moving slowly and they keep at that pace, well.

I, for one, speaking for myself only of course, am eagerly awaiting the 6D2 but really am now more interested in a mirrorless 6D-type. If Sony update their offering at that level around the time the 6D2 comes out, I'd definitely compare both.

So what we have is Sony is the undisputed leader in APS-C mirrorless cameras and makes hardly a dent on the market. They come out with a FF mirrorless and because Canon have not announced one the following day, suddenly it is a portent of market failure.
Why would you expect Canon to be the first to release a FF mirrorless ?
What evidence is there, that there is an absolute imperative to relase one in the next 12 months?
Are you AvTvM in disguise?

Say what? Are you a Canon employee or PR in disguise? I have no stake in Canon. Do you?

I have a stake in Canon. About a $25,000 stake. That's at the least how I trust the brand. What is your stake in Sony? Anything? Buy a lower end FF Sony and get back to us.

Not only that, but you extol the virtues of Sony's FF A9 while clamoring for a 6D... moving from an ASPC body.

 

[HarryFilm]

I honestly don't understand this fetish with mirrorless cameras... especially one that screeches about ho Canon must jump on board immediately or die.

I'm extremely happy with my Canon gear, think it the bee's knees, and couldn't give a rat's behind about Sony or it's lineup.

In fact, I am so happy with Canon I just dropped $1,649 on an EF 35mm f/1.4 II USM that delivers tomorrow from Adorama.

Screw the Sony mirrorless fanboys and their insistence that only Sony is doing it right and that Canon is doomed.

Take the adapters you people use so that you can use Canon lenses and stick them where the sun don't shine. Once you do, peep up that big dark pixel.

----

Mirrorless is a big deal in the sense that there are less failure-prone mechanical parts, less vibration from the shutter assembly which MAY make for better/sharper photos AND the issue that high speed photography (i.e. higher FPS) is easier to do on Mirrorless camera systems.

I've personally used mirrorless longer than I have use mirrored cameras since my original background starts with the old Betacam SP-style video cameras where you paid a pretty penny for a fully electronic shutter (aka mirrorless). It was ALSO a big deal in that electronic shutters are/were better able to synchronize with the displays on a computer systems which can be 60 fps, 72 fps, 75 fps, 120 fps and even 240 fps which in my day was a major method of transferring digital imagery onto video without spending $25,000 US for a computer screen to NTSC/PAL/SECAM video system scan converter. We simply set the sync speed to the frame rate of the display and shot the screen directly to tape with a black cloth draped over the camera and computer display. I can tell you that more than a few Hollywood TV shows were transferred that way after offline/online non-linear editing to tape for speed-of-time reasons!

In terms of Canon OR Sony satisfying their fan base, BOTH companies seem to be converging on a common consumer bracket. Right now, Canon has the edge in pro stills photography where Sony rules the roost in Smartphone sensors (their biggest market by far!) and broadcast video gear.

I do see though Sony making significant inroads into stills and Mirrorless FF cameras because they are able to leverage the strength of the broadcast video side into a consumer, semi-pro and even pro-level stills camera system. So unless Canon ups their camera by adding MORE video features and better image quality for less end-user effort (i.e. a mirrorless) than they will be quite ground into the dust as Sony has a SIGNIFICANT technological edge because of their vastly larger broadcast video experience where they are in nearly EVERY TV station with their Cameras, switchers, disk servers, video routers, editors, projectors and more!

Sony is no small company and is in EVERY major electronic market from Video Game consoles, to smartphones to image sensors to home electronics and much more!
Canon is really just a copy, printer and industrial optics company dabbling in Cameras which are GREAT but not that much of a contributor to the bottom line as their printer/copier/optics divisions. Nikon, being part of the Mitsubishi Group keiretsu, has even BIGGER resources available to it! Nikon (aka part of Mitsubishi), being a 540 BILLION US DOLLAR company, absolutely DWARFS Sony and Canon COMBINED in term of available resources so if they wanted to, Nikon could obliterate Sony AND Canon in sheer research resources, financial and marketing power!

So as of today Canon is still king of the Stills Camera BUT Sony is catching up FAST and Nikon COULD but WON'T do what is necessary to BECOME king of the cameras!

 

[davidhfe]

The complete lack of any mirrorless FF as of April 2017 and uncertainty if they will even release one this year. Not yet "too" slowly but they sure are moving slowly and they keep at that pace, well.

Mirrorless is ~27% of the ILC market. APS-C cameras, and in the case of MILCs, m4/3 cameras, vastly outsell FF. So Canon is 'slow' and going to 'fall' because they're not yet going after a tiny segment of a minority of the ILC market...a market which Canon has led for 14 years? I suggest you go look for some reality. Trust me, it's out there...even if you can't perceive it.

No question Canon's a leader now and been so in past years. I've been one of its patrons. The question is the future. IBM didn't care for DOS and Windows until it was too late. A company called Novell, for any kids out there, was once invincible in LANs when they were wired. Nokia and Blackberry thought the iPhone was a fad.

I like the brand's products but not in love with or married to the company. Just an observation here. If Canon are to continue to lead into the future, then lead, as changes are afoot.

In all seriousness, Canon has been around since 1933. They've been here before. When SLR cameras took over, when metering was first included inside a camera, when autofocus was first put into lenses, when the digital revolution took over and killed off film competitors, Canon has seen a lot of changes in its history as a business.

I hardly think that Canon could have forgotten the lessons learned in only the past 20 years while digital took over the market. When Canon decides to release a full-frame MILC, I have no doubt it'll be an extremely refined product.

Interesting comparison, given that Canon essentially defined the consumer DSLR category with the D60/D30/10D/Digital Rebel. All those products appeared in a window of what, 4 years?

It's pretty reasonable to debate if mirrorless is anywhere near as big a deal as film to digital, but evidence doesn't seem to agree they're taking the same approach as they did with previous "big" technology transitions. Maybe this approach is better, and 2018 will be the year of category-defining DPAF mirrorless, global shutter cameras from Canon. /shrug

 

[EdB]

693 AF points

Seriously? Why not 694 AF points?

It's the one in the middle, it always screws things up. Just like a middle child.

 

[Loswr]

In terms of Canon OR Sony satisfying their fan base, BOTH companies seem to be converging on a common consumer bracket. Right now, Canon has the edge in pro stills photography where Sony rules the roost in Smartphone sensors (their biggest market by far!) and broadcast video gear.

Careful...your bias is showing. Canon 'has the edge' over Sony in pro still photography? Sure, just like China has the edge over Zimbabwe in GDP. :

Sony 'rules the roost' for broadcast video gear? For heads, sure...but last time I checked, it was kinda hard to shoot broadcast footage with just a camera head. Who 'rules the roost' for field lenses? In the last Sony video catalog I looked through, all their cameras were mounted on DIGISUPER lenses, although Sony thoughtfully photoshopped out the Canon logos.

Canon is really just a copy, printer and industrial optics company dabbling in Cameras which are GREAT but not that much of a contributor to the bottom line as their printer/copier/optics divisions. Nikon, being part of the Mitsubishi Group keiretsu, has even BIGGER resources available to it! Nikon (aka part of Mitsubishi), being a 540 BILLION US DOLLAR company, absolutely DWARFS Sony and Canon COMBINED in term of available resources so if they wanted to, Nikon could obliterate Sony AND Canon in sheer research resources, financial and marketing power!

Ahhh, yet another armchair business expert. How do Wharton and HBS manage to stay afloat with all of you out there? It seems you don't understand how a keiretsu functions. Suffice it to say that Nikon does not have the resources of the Mitsubishi Group at their beck and call.

 

[Woody]

Hopefully the Sony A9 does not go down the same path as the Minolta 7D, another camera with high specification (at that point of release), innovative feature set and a very high price tag... before Konica-Minolta exited the camera business and was subsequently acquired by Sony.

 

[drob]

I'm still not sure why people are wanting Canon to do a FF mirrorless? You slap a pro lens on a Sony A7 and the size benefit is gone. Same with the new A9...you slap bigger glass on it and the size advantage is no more...so some one please shed some light on why a FF mirrorless is so important?

 

[Jopa]

We could probably also expect an A9R with that silly-high MP count. They already have that new body to put it in.

That would be really interesting. This ^ or a 5dsr successor will be a tough decision

 

[Mikehit]

This is an interesting post on the Sony forums from a sports pro photographer (by BTM_pix at 09:21pm)

http://www.eoshd.com/comments/topic/24242-sony-a9-announcement-live-stream/?page=4#comment-191769

The comments that stuck out for me were:

There is definitely a market for a mirrorless camera to take over in my field but I still believe it will have a Nikon and/or a Canon badge on it.
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The market for the goods we supply as sports photographers is shrinking financially and people tend to get even more conservative and will only switch when there is a major financial incentive. I just don't think Sony tick that financial box and its where Fuji might have an advantage.
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The resistance to change is what they need to get over and for every sports photographer like me that wants to make a change there are probably at least a hundred that don't.
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Overcoming peer pressure is going to be a bigger task for Sony than overcoming EFV blanking to be honest.
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I bet you its a fine camera though

.

 

[Mikehit]

This is an interesting post on the Sony forums from a sports pro photographer (by BTM_pix at 09:21pm)

http://www.eoshd.com/comments/topic/24242-sony-a9-announcement-live-stream/?page=4#comment-191769

The comments that stuck out for me were:

There is definitely a market for a mirrorless camera to take over in my field but I still believe it will have a Nikon and/or a Canon badge on it.
.
.
.
The market for the goods we supply as sports photographers is shrinking financially and people tend to get even more conservative and will only switch when there is a major financial incentive. I just don't think Sony tick that financial box and its where Fuji might have an advantage.
.
.
.
The resistance to change is what they need to get over and for every sports photographer like me that wants to make a change there are probably at least a hundred that don't.
.
.
.
Overcoming peer pressure is going to be a bigger task for Sony than overcoming EFV blanking to be honest.
.
.
.
I bet you its a fine camera though

.

In fact that whole thread is quite eye-opening considering it is the Sony forum. Yet here we have people on a Canon forum saying that Canon have to catch up with that.....green grass syndrome I suspect, based on being able to see a few colourful poppy heads.

 

[romanr74]

In terms of Canon OR Sony satisfying their fan base, BOTH companies seem to be converging on a common consumer bracket. Right now, Canon has the edge in pro stills photography where Sony rules the roost in Smartphone sensors (their biggest market by far!) and broadcast video gear.

Careful...your bias is showing. Canon 'has the edge' over Sony in pro still photography? Sure, just like China has the edge over Zimbabwe in GDP. :

Sony 'rules the roost' for broadcast video gear? For heads, sure...but last time I checked, it was kinda hard to shoot broadcast footage with just a camera head. Who 'rules the roost' for field lenses? In the last Sony video catalog I looked through, all their cameras were mounted on DIGISUPER lenses, although Sony thoughtfully photoshopped out the Canon logos.

Canon is really just a copy, printer and industrial optics company dabbling in Cameras which are GREAT but not that much of a contributor to the bottom line as their printer/copier/optics divisions. Nikon, being part of the Mitsubishi Group keiretsu, has even BIGGER resources available to it! Nikon (aka part of Mitsubishi), being a 540 BILLION US DOLLAR company, absolutely DWARFS Sony and Canon COMBINED in term of available resources so if they wanted to, Nikon could obliterate Sony AND Canon in sheer research resources, financial and marketing power!

Ahhh, yet another armchair business expert. How do Wharton and HBS manage to stay afloat with all of you out there? It seems you don't understand how a keiretsu functions. Suffice it to say that Nikon does not have the resources of the Mitsubishi Group at their beck and call.

Did you forget to take your pills again this morning? Why don't you stick a post-it on your fridge's door to remind you!

Oh, and why don't you business expert again elaborate on how companies are legally forced to make profit? This was a wonderful laugh...

 

[Hflm]

I honestly don't understand this fetish with mirrorless cameras... especially one that screeches about ho Canon must jump on board immediately or die.

I'm extremely happy with my Canon gear, think it the bee's knees, and couldn't give a rat's behind about Sony or it's lineup.

In fact, I am so happy with Canon I just dropped $1,649 on an EF 35mm f/1.4 II USM that delivers tomorrow from Adorama.

Screw the Sony mirrorless fanboys and their insistence that only Sony is doing it right and that Canon is doomed.

Take the adapters you people use so that you can use Canon lenses and stick them where the sun don't shine. Once you do, peep up that big dark pixel.

----

Mirrorless is a big deal in the sense that there are less failure-prone mechanical parts, less vibration from the shutter assembly which MAY make for better/sharper photos AND the issue that high speed photography (i.e. higher FPS) is easier to do on Mirrorless camera systems.

I've personally used mirrorless longer than I have use mirrored cameras since my original background starts with the old Betacam SP-style video cameras where you paid a pretty penny for a fully electronic shutter (aka mirrorless). It was ALSO a big deal in that electronic shutters are/were better able to synchronize with the displays on a computer systems which can be 60 fps, 72 fps, 75 fps, 120 fps and even 240 fps which in my day was a major method of transferring digital imagery onto video without spending $25,000 US for a computer screen to NTSC/PAL/SECAM video system scan converter. We simply set the sync speed to the frame rate of the display and shot the screen directly to tape with a black cloth draped over the camera and computer display. I can tell you that more than a few Hollywood TV shows were transferred that way after offline/online non-linear editing to tape for speed-of-time reasons!

In terms of Canon OR Sony satisfying their fan base, BOTH companies seem to be converging on a common consumer bracket. Right now, Canon has the edge in pro stills photography where Sony rules the roost in Smartphone sensors (their biggest market by far!) and broadcast video gear.

I do see though Sony making significant inroads into stills and Mirrorless FF cameras because they are able to leverage the strength of the broadcast video side into a consumer, semi-pro and even pro-level stills camera system. So unless Canon ups their camera by adding MORE video features and better image quality for less end-user effort (i.e. a mirrorless) than they will be quite ground into the dust as Sony has a SIGNIFICANT technological edge because of their vastly larger broadcast video experience where they are in nearly EVERY TV station with their Cameras, switchers, disk servers, video routers, editors, projectors and more!

Sony is no small company and is in EVERY major electronic market from Video Game consoles, to smartphones to image sensors to home electronics and much more!
Canon is really just a copy, printer and industrial optics company dabbling in Cameras which are GREAT but not that much of a contributor to the bottom line as their printer/copier/optics divisions. Nikon, being part of the Mitsubishi Group keiretsu, has even BIGGER resources available to it! Nikon (aka part of Mitsubishi), being a 540 BILLION US DOLLAR company, absolutely DWARFS Sony and Canon COMBINED in term of available resources so if they wanted to, Nikon could obliterate Sony AND Canon in sheer research resources, financial and marketing power!

So as of today Canon is still king of the Stills Camera BUT Sony is catching up FAST and Nikon COULD but WON'T do what is necessary to BECOME king of the cameras!

Regarding Nikon and Mitsubishi from someone who knows a lot about Nikon:
http://www.dslrbodies.com/nikon/about-nikon/nikon-faq/is-nikon-a-subsidiary-of.html.
Quote:"But the basic answer is, no, Nikon is an independent company with its shares publicly traded on the Nikkei. "

 

[benkam]

What the hell, I just posted a response to neuroanatomist's smugness and it got deleted. Put it back!

 

[unfocused]

At $1,000 more than a 5D IV and with Sony lenses generally overpriced in comparison to Canon and Nikon, I'm not seeing this as attracting much of a market outside of early adopting specs geeks.

 

[benkam]

Ugh, here's a more succinct version because my earlier longer post was deleted.

Well, well, personal attacks are weak and stupid.

Ok, let's review my 'personal attacks':

I suggest you go look for some reality. Trust me, it's out there...even if you can't perceive it.

So, your business degree is from Bob's Tackle Shop and School for Business and Stuff? You should have checked their accreditation status before matriculating...

But maybe your goal is to look foolish, and in that case, congrats to you.

Now, let's review yours:

You're a smug, horrible person...

It's sad that you can't perceive the difference between being called out of touch with reality, looking foolish, and having credentials questioned...and being called a horrible person. But on the positive side, you've effectively supported your statement that personal attacks are weak and stupid. Well done.

LOL Thanks for posting the time-stamp of the comments. It's evident I was merely reacting to your personal attacks. I wouldn't have written that if you hadn't started anything. And here you still reek of smugness and it stinks.

 

[Loswr]

Ugh, here's a more succinct version because my earlier longer post was deleted.

Did your more verbose response actually address any of the issues raised that demonstrate the fallacy of your contention that Canon is in dire straits unless they release a FF MILC on your personal timetable? Or was it merely a rehash of your unsuppprted opinion peppered with more crude insults. I suspect the latter, the former is likely beyond your capabilities.